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David_B
Guest
Don’t worry I think most people got your subtle irony! At least I did!!
- Status
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BulldogCath
Guest
That was aa beatiful post, and I dont know of any TLM in which we have ever got out in 20 minutes-that is the Novus Ordo Mass- as I have seen people come in at the consecration and go up and receive. When you are at a high mass or even a low mass-everybody is in a deep state of prayer and reverence and you can hear a pin drop-and anyone coming in that late would be denied-I have seen it personally, as that is a mortal sin and does not count as attending mass-check your examination of conscience-if anyone even knows what that is anymore.
As far as the TLM-I have been there for almost 2 hours for a high mass and about 75 min for the low mass-the sermons are long, thoughful, and always touch on sin and how we can be better and more reverent. The traditional priests always touch on God, Jesus, Mary and the Saints. The NO sermons are always about Jesus only. Last week the sermon touched on sacrifices for Lent-and how when we sin-how much we are hurting God-and instead of giving up that little piece of chocalate or whatever for Lent-think when you talk, watch what you say-give up hurting others and sin- as that would be the greatest sacrifice you can make for God for Lent-changing your own ways as well as giving up that piece of chocolate.
The NO Mass is a feel good mass-the Traditional Masses are thoughtful and provoking-you really feel that there is a sacrifice taking place-every time I am at a NO mass and when the priest talks about making this sacrifice acceptable to God and how he says it so fast-facing the laity-it does not really inspire me-as right after that you go into the Our father and then the handshaking and backslapping good old free for all sign of peace-it leaves not time for reflection-when in the TLM-you do go into the Pater Noster and then go and kneel at the altar rail and receive our Lord on your tongue. You reflect.
Catholic Dude:
As far as the TLM-I have been there for almost 2 hours for a high mass and about 75 min for the low mass-the sermons are long, thoughful, and always touch on sin and how we can be better and more reverent. The traditional priests always touch on God, Jesus, Mary and the Saints. The NO sermons are always about Jesus only. Last week the sermon touched on sacrifices for Lent-and how when we sin-how much we are hurting God-and instead of giving up that little piece of chocalate or whatever for Lent-think when you talk, watch what you say-give up hurting others and sin- as that would be the greatest sacrifice you can make for God for Lent-changing your own ways as well as giving up that piece of chocolate.
The NO Mass is a feel good mass-the Traditional Masses are thoughtful and provoking-you really feel that there is a sacrifice taking place-every time I am at a NO mass and when the priest talks about making this sacrifice acceptable to God and how he says it so fast-facing the laity-it does not really inspire me-as right after that you go into the Our father and then the handshaking and backslapping good old free for all sign of peace-it leaves not time for reflection-when in the TLM-you do go into the Pater Noster and then go and kneel at the altar rail and receive our Lord on your tongue. You reflect.
Catholic Dude:
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katolik
Guest
You are?
The Traditional Latin Mass is the Mass of Vatican II!!!
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BulldogCath
Guest
Nota
It is a fact-try checking the guide-and the worst part is that these shows-Our Moslem Neighbors, The God Squad, the Orthodox Jewish show, Life on the Rock are the shows that are on Prime Time. You have to wait till after 11PM to maybe catch Father Corpai or I caught a show the other night maybe at midnight with an Italian sister talking about Pope Pius XII. The other times you get Scott Hahn-a converted Protestant who I now understand has taken over for Mother Angelica or at least has something to do with the programing from what I read in another forum.
And maybe stop being so hostile Nota-but if I had to defend the last 40 years of the Vatican II church and the free for all that is going on today-I guess I would feel a bit unsettled as you do
Nota Bene:
It is a fact-try checking the guide-and the worst part is that these shows-Our Moslem Neighbors, The God Squad, the Orthodox Jewish show, Life on the Rock are the shows that are on Prime Time. You have to wait till after 11PM to maybe catch Father Corpai or I caught a show the other night maybe at midnight with an Italian sister talking about Pope Pius XII. The other times you get Scott Hahn-a converted Protestant who I now understand has taken over for Mother Angelica or at least has something to do with the programing from what I read in another forum.
And maybe stop being so hostile Nota-but if I had to defend the last 40 years of the Vatican II church and the free for all that is going on today-I guess I would feel a bit unsettled as you do
Nota Bene:
K
katolik
Guest
Nota Bene:
Mass and Divine Liturgy are synonyms. That means they is the same. They are also interchangable. I have seen Greek Catholic church bulletins say Mass not Divine Liturgy.
B
BecomeLowly
Guest
Dr. Bobmbay,
Yours,
Jessica
Code:
I apologize! Thank you for clarifying. :bounce:Jessica
E
EddieArent
Guest
Nota Bene:
Go order a copy of Life on The Rock and listen for yourself or are you too lazy to do that? I told you the episode was from this week. Have a blast finding it. If you call my comments garbage, then fine. It’s a compliment to me. I don’t need your approval last time I checked. I’m not going to follow blindly when folks are in error. St. Peter was put in his place by St. Paul and all wen well, but if you say something today against EWTN or anyone (or organization) else you’re agaianst the Church and everything.
C
Catholic29
Guest
I have watched Life on The Rock and have found nothing heretodox about it, the same goes for EWTN. So if anything that doesn’t meet with your approval, it has to be heretical. Oh well, it doesn’t matter who you are or what you believe, you will always be considered in error by somebody. But I will just go on being obedient to the Rock of Peter and Jesus Christ the best I know how to regardless of what a EddieArent or a BulldogCath has to say about it, so being labeled a heretic by one of them or their ilk would be a badge of honor.
I guess one bright side to this is since the Communions at my Novus Ordo Mass are probably not considered valid by your estimation, at least I won’t eat and drink judgment unto myself without discerning the body(1 Corinthians 11: 29).
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pnewton
Guest
Why the negative comments about the Mass? I understand that many attend places where they do not like this or that, but wasn’t this particular thread supposed to be about what we like about it? I was looking forward to a little positive good-will.
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Bulldog
Guest
You can reflect in the NO mass though I would not use that term, but rather you pray is a better word or way. IMHO. You do have some time but its depends. For example, after bowing and receive the Blessed Sacrament, I would thank God for letting me receive Him while walking back and then start a series prayers while offering up the Divine Wealth for conversion of sinners, souls in purgatory and other intentions. but I maybe not able to do additional intentions because its daily mass so the church maybe not have as many people compared to a Sunday or Saturday Vigil. Also you always say a quick intention during elevation including “My Lord and My God” (and bow of the head 
)
oh nice nickname
BulldogCath:
)oh nice nickname
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Jakub
Guest
Regarding the negative comments about the Novus Ordo, maybe there are not many who have seen or experienced it as designed, let’s hope the new Roman Missal is on “Rush Order”, the draft copies look promising.
james
james
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Catholic_Dude
Guest
Guilty as charged. I wasnt thinking when I posted.
What is good about the NO:
- We can hear it in our own language so we can understand more.
3)I have not been to an TLM, but from what I hear in the NO there are three regular readings Old, Letter & Gospel usually. Which exposes people to more Bible. (I dont know if it is because of the TLM or what, but I have senn horror stories of how Catholics dont know hardly a lick about the Bible).
I grew up going to Prot “churches”, and we didnt make any progress in the Bible, but we went over more than what I see many Catholics know…When I noticed how the Mass had three different readings that came together with such harmony and revealing light I said this is a God send. All these readings that the Prots are scared to touch. I still remember last year when I looked on the calendar and it was the Exaltation of the Holy Cross day, well I decided to check out the readings, the Old one was when the Jews had to look up to the bronze snake to be healed from their sickness, then the Letter: Phil2:6-11 which was about Christ’s mission in a nutshell, beautiful.
and the Gospel readingJohn 3:13-17:
John 3:15.
After reading this the utmost respect and reverence fell on me. I said those Catholics have their stuff together to organize stuff like this. Look at the reference John3:13-17 , you know what all those Prots did all my kid life, they jumped to John3:16 and had a hay day memorizing and repeating it and totally ignored the surrounding verses. (I dont want to turn this into a Protestant bashing page). I see this kind of stuff all the time. All this because the mass was in English if it was in Latin I dont know where I would be. I would probably be one of those guys who was unfulfilled in his childhood Christian experience and as he got older saw all this confusion among Protestants so he stopped even going to Church, Bible, etc… But the Catholic Church was there to save me…
-Thank you St Agatha School and Church.
4)What can I say for #4 after #3? I try to be the conservative type, the NO can be good if it is done with respect and orderly, like on EWTN everyday. I live in a place where I have to get up at 5am sharp to hear the Angelous and daily Mass, I am one of those guys who stays up late, not gets up early! Those who stay up late know what I am talking about!
5)About those people who say that Vatican 2 caused people to leave the Church I dont really buy. These were troubled times in the world facing severe secularism. The average american joe was more worried about V2-Rockets fired from the USSR than from the V2-Bishops talking about how to pis-off ArchBishop LeFevre.
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Exporter
Guest
Catholic Dude, Great Post , Dude!
This past week I received my set of 48 CDs from Father Capori. It cost quite a bit. But not one of the 48 CDs said a thing about the various Masses. He didn’t talk about Novus Ordo or the Traditional Latin Mass. So I suppose he (Father Corapi) does not think it is important.
This past week I received my set of 48 CDs from Father Capori. It cost quite a bit. But not one of the 48 CDs said a thing about the various Masses. He didn’t talk about Novus Ordo or the Traditional Latin Mass. So I suppose he (Father Corapi) does not think it is important.
B
BulldogCath
Guest
In Spirit Daily today-Gee it seem that Sister Lucia had a prediction right around 1957, with an increase in the influence of the Devil and a falling away from the faith-and what happened a few years later…Hmmm Vatican II, and what has that produced-A falling away from the faith-the sex abuse crisis and the corruption of the seminaries by the Modernists and the Ecumenical push.
Lucia said her two cousins always saw the Blessed Mother as sad because of the offenses of mankindhttp://www.spiritdaily.com/luciaold.jpg and the punishments that consequently threatened.
God would chastise the world, she fretted as mankind neared the 1960s, and it would be “terrible.”
Whether that concern – whether the specific chastisement she saw – still holds true or was a worry attached to the rise of atomic weapons in the subsequent Sixties is fodder for interpretation. At least for a “period,” the Russian threat has been dismantled.
But there are now other, equally pressing concerns, as well as the questions. Will that “period of peace” last? And what may now come?
As one author and Fatima expert Frere Michel de la Sainte pointed out, Lucia was “not talking about the ‘end of the world’ properly speaking, which is identified with the return of Christ in glory for the last judgment. This indicates only that we are entering the last great period of the world’s history, without being able to judge how long it will last.”
There are now secrets from sites such as Medjugorje in Bosnia-Hercegovina that are expected to unfold in the near future – secrets that are more numerous than those from Fatima and by all indications at least as serious as the three Lucia related.
“Father,” Sister Lucia once said in reported conversations with a Mexican named Augustine Fuentes, “the Most Holy Virgin did not tell me that we are in the last times of the world but she made me understand this for three reasons. The first reason is because she told me that the devil is in the mood for engaging in a decisive battle where one side will be victorious and the other side will suffer defeat. Hence from now on we must choose sides. Either we are for God or we are for the devil.”
http://www.spiritdaily.com/luciawake.jpgLucia prophetically indicated that the intense part of the struggle would focus on consecrated souls. She made that prediction in 1957 – as it turns out, the period during which the current sex-abuse crisis had its germination. Such was also forecast in a recent book the seer wrote.
“The devil does everything to overcome souls consecrated to God because in this way, the devil will succeed in leaving the souls of the faithful abandoned by their leaders, thereby the more easily will he seize them,” she said on December 26, 1957, with chilling prescience.
“That which afflicts the Immaculate Heart of Mary and the Heart of Jesus is the fall of religious and priestly souls,” she told Fuentes. “The devil wishes to take possession of consecrated souls. He tries to corrupt them in order to lull to sleep the souls of laypeople and thereby lead them to final impenitence.”
Her main mission, Sister Lucia said, was to indicate to everyone not so much earthly chastisement as the danger of losing one’s soul for eternity. The devil does his best, she warned, to distract people from prayer and take away the love for it. “We shall be saved together,” she said, “or we shall be damned together.”
There were always indications that Lucia was especially concerned about the loss of faith in Europe – although, as predicted at Fatima, her homeland of Portugal has remained faithful.
The devil, she lamented, had focused his assault against the Rosary, which she described as the prayer, after the holy liturgy itself, “most apt for preserving the faith in souls.”
Lucia said her two cousins always saw the Blessed Mother as sad because of the offenses of mankindhttp://www.spiritdaily.com/luciaold.jpg and the punishments that consequently threatened.
God would chastise the world, she fretted as mankind neared the 1960s, and it would be “terrible.”
Whether that concern – whether the specific chastisement she saw – still holds true or was a worry attached to the rise of atomic weapons in the subsequent Sixties is fodder for interpretation. At least for a “period,” the Russian threat has been dismantled.
But there are now other, equally pressing concerns, as well as the questions. Will that “period of peace” last? And what may now come?
As one author and Fatima expert Frere Michel de la Sainte pointed out, Lucia was “not talking about the ‘end of the world’ properly speaking, which is identified with the return of Christ in glory for the last judgment. This indicates only that we are entering the last great period of the world’s history, without being able to judge how long it will last.”
There are now secrets from sites such as Medjugorje in Bosnia-Hercegovina that are expected to unfold in the near future – secrets that are more numerous than those from Fatima and by all indications at least as serious as the three Lucia related.
“Father,” Sister Lucia once said in reported conversations with a Mexican named Augustine Fuentes, “the Most Holy Virgin did not tell me that we are in the last times of the world but she made me understand this for three reasons. The first reason is because she told me that the devil is in the mood for engaging in a decisive battle where one side will be victorious and the other side will suffer defeat. Hence from now on we must choose sides. Either we are for God or we are for the devil.”
http://www.spiritdaily.com/luciawake.jpgLucia prophetically indicated that the intense part of the struggle would focus on consecrated souls. She made that prediction in 1957 – as it turns out, the period during which the current sex-abuse crisis had its germination. Such was also forecast in a recent book the seer wrote.
“The devil does everything to overcome souls consecrated to God because in this way, the devil will succeed in leaving the souls of the faithful abandoned by their leaders, thereby the more easily will he seize them,” she said on December 26, 1957, with chilling prescience.
“That which afflicts the Immaculate Heart of Mary and the Heart of Jesus is the fall of religious and priestly souls,” she told Fuentes. “The devil wishes to take possession of consecrated souls. He tries to corrupt them in order to lull to sleep the souls of laypeople and thereby lead them to final impenitence.”
Her main mission, Sister Lucia said, was to indicate to everyone not so much earthly chastisement as the danger of losing one’s soul for eternity. The devil does his best, she warned, to distract people from prayer and take away the love for it. “We shall be saved together,” she said, “or we shall be damned together.”
There were always indications that Lucia was especially concerned about the loss of faith in Europe – although, as predicted at Fatima, her homeland of Portugal has remained faithful.
The devil, she lamented, had focused his assault against the Rosary, which she described as the prayer, after the holy liturgy itself, “most apt for preserving the faith in souls.”
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EddieArent
Guest
BullDog, good article. But I’m not sure about the events in Bosnia. You want to talk about a loss of faith? On the feast of the conversion of St. Paul, the bishop here celebrated an eccumenical celebration. The same very same day, Father Angelus spoke in his homily about how years ago in Pennsylvania (I believe) a diocese purchased a Protestant church dedicated to St. Paul and the bishop re-named the church to the Conversion of St. Paul parish or something of that nature. It just shows you how everything has been turned upside down in a generation’s time.
J
Jakub
Guest
I attended the “guitar assisted” Mass today, amazing how the wording of the Pater Noster resembled one used by evangelicans, and the celebrating Priest did more sitting then participating.
I was also amazed to see a female Eucharistic Minister open the Holy Tabernacle and remove/replace Hosts.
Truly eye opening and …
james
I was also amazed to see a female Eucharistic Minister open the Holy Tabernacle and remove/replace Hosts.
Truly eye opening and …
james
B
BulldogCath
Guest
Jakub
Give it time before you see the priest sitting in the first row of the pew and the entire mass being performed by females and laity. I had someone blast me for having my child be baptised both in the NO and then in an independent or schismatic or whatever Traditional Mass Baptism under the old Rite, but I am convinced withing 10 to 15 years that is where most good, traditional conservative catholics, not those that want to make it up as we go-and admire the sacrifices of the martyrs and all who came before us will be going as the New Vatican is gone and so has the mass and the liturgical abuses. The things we are calling abuses today will be the “Norm” in 5 years-like communion in the hand or female altar girls, eucharistic ministers-if you had thought that was crazy 20 years ago-now it is the norm. Forget about GIRM , SQUIRM whatever I keep hearing-no one enforces it and no one really cares. My church is so bare-and it is the main church for the diocese-and they bring out the incense and it is funny to watch the Bishop try to act a little traditional during the Novus Ordo Mass when I go-he tried to use a little Latin not to long ago and he flubbed it so bad that he actually made Newday and a traditional website and he was using the wrong words.
Jakub:
Give it time before you see the priest sitting in the first row of the pew and the entire mass being performed by females and laity. I had someone blast me for having my child be baptised both in the NO and then in an independent or schismatic or whatever Traditional Mass Baptism under the old Rite, but I am convinced withing 10 to 15 years that is where most good, traditional conservative catholics, not those that want to make it up as we go-and admire the sacrifices of the martyrs and all who came before us will be going as the New Vatican is gone and so has the mass and the liturgical abuses. The things we are calling abuses today will be the “Norm” in 5 years-like communion in the hand or female altar girls, eucharistic ministers-if you had thought that was crazy 20 years ago-now it is the norm. Forget about GIRM , SQUIRM whatever I keep hearing-no one enforces it and no one really cares. My church is so bare-and it is the main church for the diocese-and they bring out the incense and it is funny to watch the Bishop try to act a little traditional during the Novus Ordo Mass when I go-he tried to use a little Latin not to long ago and he flubbed it so bad that he actually made Newday and a traditional website and he was using the wrong words.
P
pnewton
Guest
Catholic Dude said:
This is an interesting connection. I like it!
B
BackRowBaritone
Guest
I posted the following as a new thread about a week ago, but only 2 people responded. Perhaps these ideas will draw more comments as part of this thread.
I’ve been reading a lot of material, here and elsewhere, about the relative merits of the Tridentine Mass versus the Novus Ordo Missae, and between Mass in Latin vs. Mass in English - some quite scholarly, some purely polemic. It occured to me that this was yet another case in which Blessed John Henry Newman could be of help. In his Apologia Pro Vita Sua (if I remember correctly), Newman introduces the idea of “the Catholic AND.” During his examination of Catholicism, he discovered that Protestant thought is often expressed in terms of “either/or” - either Faith OR Works, either Scripture OR Tradition. On the other hand, Catholic thought is expressed in terms of “both/and” - Faith AND Works, Scripture AND Tradition. I’m wondering if the same “Catholic AND” could be applied to this controversy as
well.
Here’s my trial balloon: Both Latin AND the vernacular are NECESSARY for a fuller understanding of the dual nature of our Lord. Latin emphasizes the majesty of His divinity, English emphasizes the humility of His humanity. Ideally (…I know, I know…), Latin Mass could be offered on Feast days and Solemnities as well as Advent/Christmas and Lent/Easter; during Ordinary Time, Mass would be exclusively in English. Perhaps Latin Mass could be the first offering on Sunday morning, because those folks who as enthused about Latin would be the most willing to get to early Mass on time.
Several sensible people have noted that this would require a substantial amount of catechesis, something which is sorely deficient in the Church in the United States. Also, so few priests are able to celebrate Mass in Latin (willingness is another matter) that this is an admittedly theoretical exercise. My pastor celebrated Mass in Latin on All Souls Day and, as “traditional” as he is, his Latin pronunciation needed more practice. Even so, he did a good job as he always does, and I hope he will offer Mass in Latin more often.
On the issue of TLM or NO: when our Holy Father celebrates Mass, which one does he use? Pope John Paul II is a man of the Council, and he uses the Mass of Paul VI. Sorry … I agree that the Tridentine Mass is glorious, but if the Novus Ordo is good enough for John Paul the Great, it’s good enough for me. I understand Patrick Madrid has a new book out on our schismatic betheren called “Holier than the Pope” - it may be worth seeking out. Even Fr. Peter Stravinskas, an advocate for Mass in Latin, has stated that the Tridentine Mass was in serious need of revision, and he has never celebrated the old Mass.
O.K., friends, you can start shooting now …
I’ve been reading a lot of material, here and elsewhere, about the relative merits of the Tridentine Mass versus the Novus Ordo Missae, and between Mass in Latin vs. Mass in English - some quite scholarly, some purely polemic. It occured to me that this was yet another case in which Blessed John Henry Newman could be of help. In his Apologia Pro Vita Sua (if I remember correctly), Newman introduces the idea of “the Catholic AND.” During his examination of Catholicism, he discovered that Protestant thought is often expressed in terms of “either/or” - either Faith OR Works, either Scripture OR Tradition. On the other hand, Catholic thought is expressed in terms of “both/and” - Faith AND Works, Scripture AND Tradition. I’m wondering if the same “Catholic AND” could be applied to this controversy as
well.
Here’s my trial balloon: Both Latin AND the vernacular are NECESSARY for a fuller understanding of the dual nature of our Lord. Latin emphasizes the majesty of His divinity, English emphasizes the humility of His humanity. Ideally (…I know, I know…), Latin Mass could be offered on Feast days and Solemnities as well as Advent/Christmas and Lent/Easter; during Ordinary Time, Mass would be exclusively in English. Perhaps Latin Mass could be the first offering on Sunday morning, because those folks who as enthused about Latin would be the most willing to get to early Mass on time.
Several sensible people have noted that this would require a substantial amount of catechesis, something which is sorely deficient in the Church in the United States. Also, so few priests are able to celebrate Mass in Latin (willingness is another matter) that this is an admittedly theoretical exercise. My pastor celebrated Mass in Latin on All Souls Day and, as “traditional” as he is, his Latin pronunciation needed more practice. Even so, he did a good job as he always does, and I hope he will offer Mass in Latin more often.
On the issue of TLM or NO: when our Holy Father celebrates Mass, which one does he use? Pope John Paul II is a man of the Council, and he uses the Mass of Paul VI. Sorry … I agree that the Tridentine Mass is glorious, but if the Novus Ordo is good enough for John Paul the Great, it’s good enough for me. I understand Patrick Madrid has a new book out on our schismatic betheren called “Holier than the Pope” - it may be worth seeking out. Even Fr. Peter Stravinskas, an advocate for Mass in Latin, has stated that the Tridentine Mass was in serious need of revision, and he has never celebrated the old Mass.
O.K., friends, you can start shooting now …
T
TNT
Guest
Catholic Dude:
- "Catholics dont know hardly a lick about the Bible"
Catholcs know the WHOLE of the Bible, but can’t tell you the verse location That’s why God gave us Search Engines)… Prot’s. know 1/3 of the bible and can tell you the location of the verse. - Let’s debunk this false idea about “more bible in the NOM”:
Here is the Proper for today in the TLM:
That’s 7 readings by my count vs NOM 3 count. The Church has always “connected” the readings. I think the NOM does it better on SOME occasions…that is one place the TLM could have been reformed.
- Status