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Nota_Bene
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Which sect of Protestantism are you now a member of?
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Exporter
Guest
Teresita http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/statusicon_cad/user_offline.gif vbmenu_register(“postmenu_470394”, true);
Regular Member
Sue, there is no way to say this in a delicate manner so please understand this post is not personal , it is a comment relative what you just posted.
First: Let me agree with you. The church building itself is not important. I have been to Mass in a tent. ( It works there too).
Second: I do not go to Mass to be entertained either. I would be content with no music at all.
Third: I disagree with all the rest of what you wrote. :nope:
Regular Member
Sue, there is no way to say this in a delicate manner so please understand this post is not personal , it is a comment relative what you just posted.
First: Let me agree with you. The church building itself is not important. I have been to Mass in a tent. ( It works there too).
Second: I do not go to Mass to be entertained either. I would be content with no music at all.
Third: I disagree with all the rest of what you wrote. :nope:
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oat_soda
Guest
like it or not, the new mass was supposed to be an improvement of the tridentine mass but unfortunately, it missed the mark. the resilience of the trindentine mass points to the failed aspirations of the normative mass. cardinal ratzinger is a huge critic of the new mass.
the fact that we eat his flesh and drink his blood is obvious enough that it is a meal. it is first and foremost a sacraficial offering to the Father.
and not only in a general way, as if it were simply a matter of Christ’s offering Himself to the faithful as their spiritual food. The gift of His love and obedience to the point of giving his life (cf. Jn 10:17-18) is in the first place a gift to His Father. Certainly it is a gift given for our sake, and indeed that of all humanity (cf. Mt 26:28; Mk 14:24; Lk 22:20; Jn 10:15), yet it is****first and foremost a gift to the Father: "a sacrifice that the Father accepted, giving, in return for this total self-giving by His Son, who ‘became obedient unto death’ (Phil 2:8), His own paternal gift, that is to say the grant of new immortal life in the resurrection".18 why emphasize that which is by it’s very nature most obvious? what isn’t obvious but even more of a reality is the eucharist’s sacraficial. you point out the dangers of communion in the hand.
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Exporter
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This is a comment.
I found this Catholic Answers Forum maybe four months ago.
I am a white-haired old Roman Catholic who has been involved with my local church for maybe 48 years. I have taught CCD and read a number of Catholic books and I never heard of some of the terms I found on this Forum.
The term Novus Ordo is tossed around quite a bit. I never heard of it until I found CA Forums. I do not think any of our priests every said that term.
My question is (1)what percent of Catholics know the names of the various Masses? (2)There are six to eight posters who seem adamant about Novus Ordo, why? (3)Why would anyone be defiant against the traditional Mass said in Latin?
I found this Catholic Answers Forum maybe four months ago.
I am a white-haired old Roman Catholic who has been involved with my local church for maybe 48 years. I have taught CCD and read a number of Catholic books and I never heard of some of the terms I found on this Forum.
The term Novus Ordo is tossed around quite a bit. I never heard of it until I found CA Forums. I do not think any of our priests every said that term.
My question is (1)what percent of Catholics know the names of the various Masses? (2)There are six to eight posters who seem adamant about Novus Ordo, why? (3)Why would anyone be defiant against the traditional Mass said in Latin?
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Teresita
Guest
Exporter said:
Oh, don’t worry, Exporter: so do I. And NotaBene, I became a Catholic in 1998, and disagree with all those points I expounded in my post.
I fear that my besetting sin (a temptation to irony which is common to most of us English) has deceived you more sincere Americans. The point I was trying to make - and obviously failed to do so - was that all the things which Nota Bene likes about the NO Mass are Protestant preoccupations. I’m not accusing him (her?) of Protestantism; but I do wonder why s/he is dissatisfied with so many of the things which marked out the Catholic Church and her children for so many centuries.
Sue
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katolik
Guest
Cardinal Glemp has called to allow Communion in the Hand starting Maundy Thursday[the day before Good Friday] in his archdiocese.
There have been huge fights in Poland against this. There have petitions to not allow this but the bishops don’t listen. The anti handCommunion people quote John Paul II and then they’re accused of being antiVatican II by the media. It’s anarachy!
The communist controlled media tells us Catholics that we are antiVatican II. Who in the USA told us that? The priests but of course… Those priests and communist share one goal to destroy the Church.
EddieArent:
There have been huge fights in Poland against this. There have petitions to not allow this but the bishops don’t listen. The anti handCommunion people quote John Paul II and then they’re accused of being antiVatican II by the media. It’s anarachy!
The communist controlled media tells us Catholics that we are antiVatican II. Who in the USA told us that? The priests but of course… Those priests and communist share one goal to destroy the Church.
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TNT
Guest
Exporter said:
From the Encyclopedia:
I often just use NOM. And I nearly always use TLM., in reference to the Trad. Latin Mass.
Others want to use “normative” mass as if there had to be an “ABnormative” mass.
The NOM (from it’s Latin description by the VATII Consilium), is the standard normally celebrated mass of the VATII church after 1968.
The TLM is the standard normal mass of the Traditional Roman Catholic Rite. At least for 1200 years, which would include the Tridentine rubrics/form of it.
Finally,
The NOM is a more pliable type of mass.
The TLM is a rigid type of mass.
(TNT is “3- letter guy” !)
The pliability, or “plastic” nature of the NOM rubrics/prayers allow it to be easily bastardized for countless agendas.
The TLM was codified by Trent to prevent ANY pliability by those who would use it for an agenda other than Sacred Worship of the highest Catholic sanctity and catechesis.
ps. This is a comment.
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katolik
Guest
Nota Bene:
Some Greek Catholics want to declare some type of “independence” from the Roman Catholic Church. Even the Orthodox call the Divine Liturgy the Mass! Some of these people use this logic to say that they can’t believe in Papal Infallibility or the Immaculate Conception.
Yes there is.
Some Greek Catholics want to declare some type of “independence” from the Roman Catholic Church. Even the Orthodox call the Divine Liturgy the Mass! Some of these people use this logic to say that they can’t believe in Papal Infallibility or the Immaculate Conception.
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TNT
Guest
Nice try…won’t fly…dead bird.
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TNT
Guest
You have a “interminable” wait coming your way. 37 years and nothing on the horizon. Like the SDA’s and their awaiting the 2nd coming…any day now, yep.
I gave up on that in 2001…TLM, here I come.
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Joanne_ca
Guest
Nothing!
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TNT
Guest
Mama Bear is a Pastor Aeternus “pro”oooo, thanks for pointing that out! I always just assumed obedience and submission were the same. That was a good way of differentiating the two.
She has a copy of it on her refrigerator, bedroom ceiling, bed sheets, sweat shirts, auto sunshield, autoplay TV video and bath towels. …plenary I. please…
BTW:
I follow the spirit of PA by going to pray with animists and tell the Jews that their Old Mosaic covenant is salvific, just like the New one. …happy to do so. Oh, and tell anyone who will listen, Hell exists, but no one knows if humans are involved in it.
I may not be able to define “jocular sarcastic” humor, I just use it the best I can.
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BecomeLowly
Guest
Hello TNT,
Thank you for responding to my post about the Holy Mass being said in the vernacular at the beginning. I could of course be wrong. Was there originally a universal language?
I am not pro-Pauline Mass or pro-Tridentine Mass; I trust that both are valid, and Jesus is truly present in the Eucharist at both. I realize as well that every Mass must be celebrated according to the rubrics governing it. So my liturgical preferences thankfully have no bearing on the validity of the Mass-- otherwise I could find a lot to complain about.
Yours,
Jessica
Thank you for responding to my post about the Holy Mass being said in the vernacular at the beginning. I could of course be wrong. Was there originally a universal language?
I am not pro-Pauline Mass or pro-Tridentine Mass; I trust that both are valid, and Jesus is truly present in the Eucharist at both. I realize as well that every Mass must be celebrated according to the rubrics governing it. So my liturgical preferences thankfully have no bearing on the validity of the Mass-- otherwise I could find a lot to complain about.
Yours,
Jessica
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BulldogCath
Guest
Exporter
That is the problem-that much of the laity sitting in the pews know very little about what was-and what has happened and what is happening to their very own church. They accept it as it is as they feel that if Rome says it is so than it must be. Well we know that this is not always the case, as we have had bad Popes through history and the present course of the church, well I can only think of one other analogy and it is the Titanic.
The priests and Bishop in my diocese and Parish wont even acknowledge our petitions for a TLM, or anything that has to do with pre-Vatican II-we are totally ignored. They never use the word Novus Ordo or ever discuss that mass at all on EWTN TV-it is like a bad word. Every so often the touch on liturgical abuses, but like everything with the Catholic Church-I am finding more Jewish and Moslem garbage on EWTN than about our own faith. Father Tom Hartman has two or three shows with Rabbi Gelman-whose own Jewish congregation hate him for being so close to the Catholics, we then have “Our Moslem Neighbors”, and a few shows with other Orthodox Rabbis. Maybe one show about scripture, one with Father Trugillio “Web of Faith” and every so often you get the NO Mass, the Rosary, and Father Corpai (who I think is the best, if the church had more men like him, we would not need a Bishop like we have who really does nothing and is basically powerless).
What the laity needs, and myself and other conservative catholics to from church to church on Sunday-is hand out traditional literature after the NO Mass to the lay persons and explain what Vatican II was, the statistics after the council, and explain what genesis of the NO mass as compared to the TLM mass. To date we have received many phone calls from parishoners and others who want to know more.
Exporter:
That is the problem-that much of the laity sitting in the pews know very little about what was-and what has happened and what is happening to their very own church. They accept it as it is as they feel that if Rome says it is so than it must be. Well we know that this is not always the case, as we have had bad Popes through history and the present course of the church, well I can only think of one other analogy and it is the Titanic.
The priests and Bishop in my diocese and Parish wont even acknowledge our petitions for a TLM, or anything that has to do with pre-Vatican II-we are totally ignored. They never use the word Novus Ordo or ever discuss that mass at all on EWTN TV-it is like a bad word. Every so often the touch on liturgical abuses, but like everything with the Catholic Church-I am finding more Jewish and Moslem garbage on EWTN than about our own faith. Father Tom Hartman has two or three shows with Rabbi Gelman-whose own Jewish congregation hate him for being so close to the Catholics, we then have “Our Moslem Neighbors”, and a few shows with other Orthodox Rabbis. Maybe one show about scripture, one with Father Trugillio “Web of Faith” and every so often you get the NO Mass, the Rosary, and Father Corpai (who I think is the best, if the church had more men like him, we would not need a Bishop like we have who really does nothing and is basically powerless).
What the laity needs, and myself and other conservative catholics to from church to church on Sunday-is hand out traditional literature after the NO Mass to the lay persons and explain what Vatican II was, the statistics after the council, and explain what genesis of the NO mass as compared to the TLM mass. To date we have received many phone calls from parishoners and others who want to know more.
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EddieArent
Guest
BullDog, I totally agree. It’s a bit discomforting what EWTN is starting to do program wise. Perhaps because Mother Angelica is less involved they are doing some of this stuff? The other day they had some Fransicans basically apoligizing to Muslims and pointing the finger at us on Life on The Rock. There was supposed to be a program at the Priestly Society of St. Peter’s seminary a few months ago, but that was never shown. The program people at EWTN said the tape got messed up or something of that nature. Weird.
I know what you mean indult wise. Here they acknowledge us, but every day it’s something new. For example, one day they say the plan on have the Tridentine Mass. The next they say the bishop hasn’t made a decision. Then a week later they say they can’t find a priest to say the Mass. The samething that happened with our past bishop. They won’t look outside the diocese but when a Polish priest was kicked out of the diocese for beating up a deacon they brought in another priest from another diocese to say Mass in Polish.
IMO I think my bishop and curia is dishonest. I simply don’t trust them.This example above isn’t the only example I can speak of. The list goes on and on. The worst being IMO when the bishop spoke against pro-abortion Catholic politicians receiving Holy Communion. Only to later find out that a certain politician visited on the day before the election and took communion from a certain priest that was later appointed vicar for priests. I wanted to break something when I heard that they appointed this priest as vicar for priests after so many Catholics in Orlando are so involved in anti-abortion causes. This bishop was on EWTN speaking against pro-abortion politicians, but as you can see talk is cheap, especially when you go on the air and can’t look into the camera and start mumbling.
There’s a state of rebellion here in Orlando in case anyone didn’t notice.
I know what you mean indult wise. Here they acknowledge us, but every day it’s something new. For example, one day they say the plan on have the Tridentine Mass. The next they say the bishop hasn’t made a decision. Then a week later they say they can’t find a priest to say the Mass. The samething that happened with our past bishop. They won’t look outside the diocese but when a Polish priest was kicked out of the diocese for beating up a deacon they brought in another priest from another diocese to say Mass in Polish.
IMO I think my bishop and curia is dishonest. I simply don’t trust them.This example above isn’t the only example I can speak of. The list goes on and on. The worst being IMO when the bishop spoke against pro-abortion Catholic politicians receiving Holy Communion. Only to later find out that a certain politician visited on the day before the election and took communion from a certain priest that was later appointed vicar for priests. I wanted to break something when I heard that they appointed this priest as vicar for priests after so many Catholics in Orlando are so involved in anti-abortion causes. This bishop was on EWTN speaking against pro-abortion politicians, but as you can see talk is cheap, especially when you go on the air and can’t look into the camera and start mumbling.
There’s a state of rebellion here in Orlando in case anyone didn’t notice.
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kmktexas
Guest
OK,
What I like about the normative Mass:
What I like about the normative Mass:
- There are more reponses said by the people (if the dialogue version of the TLM was more available, this “advantage” would disappear)
- When the Mass is done correctly, the prayers that are said in Latin (and Greek) are really set apart as worthy of special note.
- The GIRM for the normative Mass is more readily accessible by the laity so it easier for us to spot and avoid serious abuses.
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Nota_Bene
Guest
You source is also wrong. the Mass is unique to the Latin Rite. The Byzantine Catholic Churches (there are more than 10) celebrate the Divine Liturgies.
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Catholic_Dude
Guest
I admit with all the lingo thrown around I dont know the full answers to #1 & #2.
Here is where I get sucked in to these topic angain and again…#3.
First of all something doesnt sound right about all those TLM masses that are in and out in 20min. People have told me its true, but my head and heart dont agree.
I honestly cant understand why we needed the NO mass in the first place. I just emailed my priest on all the abuses where I go. I couldnt put up with it anymore. I dont know if the same stuff happens at a TLM, but here is what put me over the edge:
Here is what I deal with where I go:
1)Beginning music is not a hymn, I look at all the music we sing/hear and the date at the bottom of the page says they were written in the last 10-30 years. Almost no traditional music used throughout.
2)The “Lord have mercy, Christ have mercy” is sung in a nursery rhyme tone, added words, rushed, no reverence, etc.
3)The Gloria does not follow the text in the missal. It is sung to a beat with clapping and extra words. In a lot of the sacred parts, the missal it says “Omit if not sung” and “some appropriate alternative can be used instead” Why is this?
4)For the homily the priest has started to walk around, and even ask questions where people raise their hand. (HELP!)
5)Offering hymn is not a hymn but a semi-New Age sounding song.
6)Eucharistic Prayer is different each time and the first half doesnt follow the missal.
7)For the Our Father the priest says " let us join our heart and our hands" before we begin, some people do, some dont.
8)EMs moving around or pouring wine while the priest is talking or receiving.
9)Lamb of God is sung to a nursery rhyme new age tone, words are added, half is in English the other in Latin, very offensive.
10)Closing hymn is rushed, usually 2 out of 4 of the verses are sung, mad dash to the exit once the priest leaves, mad chaos at the end before the music has ended.
I hope this isnt just me?
I listen to mass on EWTN and im fine with it, respect, reverence, etc.
ALSO:
Why were things like Psalm 42 thrown out. I read Ps42 all the time and it helps me concentrate and gets me in the right mindset. Nobody knows why
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Nota_Bene
Guest
Your comments about EWTN are nothing more than garbage-filled conjecture. Either back them up with proof (please, no Geocities websites) or back off altogether.BullDog, I totally agree. It’s a bit discomforting what EWTN is starting to do program wise. Perhaps because Mother Angelica is less involved they are doing some of this stuff? The other day they had some Fransicans basically apoligizing to Muslims and pointing the finger at us on Life on The Rock. There was supposed to be a program at the Priestly Society of St. Peter’s seminary a few months ago, but that was never shown. The program people at EWTN said the tape got messed up or something of that nature. Weird.
I know what you mean indult wise. Here they acknowledge us, but every day it’s something new. For example, one day they say the plan on have the Tridentine Mass. The next they say the bishop hasn’t made a decision. Then a week later they say they can’t find a priest to say the Mass. The samething that happened with our past bishop. They won’t look outside the diocese but when a Polish priest was kicked out of the diocese for beating up a deacon they brought in another priest from another diocese to say Mass in Polish.
IMO I think my bishop and curia is dishonest. I simply don’t trust them.This example above isn’t the only example I can speak of. The list goes on and on. The worst being IMO when the bishop spoke against pro-abortion Catholic politicians receiving Holy Communion. Only to later find out that a certain politician visited on the day before the election and took communion from a certain priest that was later appointed vicar for priests. I wanted to break something when I heard that they appointed this priest as vicar for priests after so many Catholics in Orlando are so involved in anti-abortion causes. This bishop was on EWTN speaking against pro-abortion politicians, but as you can see talk is cheap, especially when you go on the air and can’t look into the camera and start mumbling.
There’s a state of rebellion here in Orlando in case anyone didn’t notice.
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Dr.Bombay
Guest
Hi Jessica,
That was another of my poor attempts at humor.
Yes, I know Latin didn’t become the official liturgical language for quite some time.In the future I’ll make sure I use one of these:
:whacky:
, etc. so there’ll be no confusion.DB
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