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Brian_Culliton
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What Jesus spoke is valid until He comes.
I see Christ’s second coming in Rev. 6:12, possibly 18:1, and defiantly 19:11.
No, not that I can see.
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Louemma
Guest
The Catching away is an event that is taught differently to the Catholics.You all believe this event takes place at the very end and quiet frankly I’m tired of discussing it because I see the catching away as an event that takes place before the 1000 year reign.
To answer your questions above from a non catholic bible based study…
1 Thess 4:14 for if we believe Jesus died and rose again,even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(The souls that God brings with him will receive their glorified bodies at this time and how do we know this?)
1 Thess 4:15 for this we say unto you you by the word of the lord that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Thess 4:16 for the lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout with the voice of the archangel and with the trump of God and the dead in Christ rise first(Let’s stop here and think,if God brings those who are asleep in Christ back with him then we know that the dead in Christ who rise first gets their glorified body at this time because we know they are not soul sleeping but the graves burst open and this is the first resurrection,the word resurrection means the rising of the dead.So right here so far we know those who come back with Christ receives a glorified body,but wait…
1 Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds to meet the lord in the air and so we shall ever be with the lord.(We or those who are alive will also receive a glorified body at this time and how do we know those caught up receive a glorified body at that time?
1 Corinthians 15:51 behold I show you a mystery;we will not all sleep,but we will shall be changed
1 Corinthians 15:52 in a moment,in the twinkling of an eye,at the last trump,for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed.
This is who gets a glorified body,those that take part in the first resurrection
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CWBetts
Guest
Frankly, what you think a passage means is totally irrelevant. This actually highlights a problem of Sola Scriptura. What matters is what is taught by the infallible Catholic Church. If I have a choice between what you say and what the Church teaches, the Church wins.
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Louemma
Guest
(ryanoneal)
Revelation 20:5 says but the rest of the dead lived not until the 1000 years were finished.It goes on to say"This is the first resurrection"
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and Holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection,on such the second death hath no power,but they shall be priests of God and of Christ,and shall rule and reign with him a 1000 years.
Now from what I gather the Catholics believe that the evil people are taken off the earth and base this belief from Matt 24 where Jesus said that it would be as in the days of Noah.
Some don’t believe this way.Some believe Jesus was saying that this time would come when evil is on the earth as like in the days of Noah.So the good are taken and the evil ones left.Now if you use all the word of God together,considering the catching away then it makes more since that evil would be left because in Revelation 20:1-3 the binding of Satan and in Revelation 20"4-6 the 1000 year reign
Now you ask if people would die during this period?If there are people who make it through the tribulation and there will be,these people who were not caught up but came to Christ during the tribulation are not going to have a glorified body,so yes these people die and how do we know there will be people that are on the earth during the 1000 year reign of Christ who will still be in the perishable body(1) we rule and reign with Christ,who are we ruling?(2) sin is still in the world and a glorified body is without sin.So in Revelation 20:7-10 we read of the loosing of Satan.he makes war with the saints and his army is the evil men still on the earth,of course he is defeated and fire comes down and devours his army.Then we read in Revelation 20:11-15 This is the great white throne judgement for the rest of the dead who did not take part in the first resurrection.This judgement has the power of death(see Rev.20:5-6) This judgement causes death and hell to deliver up the dead.
Revelation 20:5 says but the rest of the dead lived not until the 1000 years were finished.It goes on to say"This is the first resurrection"
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and Holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection,on such the second death hath no power,but they shall be priests of God and of Christ,and shall rule and reign with him a 1000 years.
Now from what I gather the Catholics believe that the evil people are taken off the earth and base this belief from Matt 24 where Jesus said that it would be as in the days of Noah.
Some don’t believe this way.Some believe Jesus was saying that this time would come when evil is on the earth as like in the days of Noah.So the good are taken and the evil ones left.Now if you use all the word of God together,considering the catching away then it makes more since that evil would be left because in Revelation 20:1-3 the binding of Satan and in Revelation 20"4-6 the 1000 year reign
Now you ask if people would die during this period?If there are people who make it through the tribulation and there will be,these people who were not caught up but came to Christ during the tribulation are not going to have a glorified body,so yes these people die and how do we know there will be people that are on the earth during the 1000 year reign of Christ who will still be in the perishable body(1) we rule and reign with Christ,who are we ruling?(2) sin is still in the world and a glorified body is without sin.So in Revelation 20:7-10 we read of the loosing of Satan.he makes war with the saints and his army is the evil men still on the earth,of course he is defeated and fire comes down and devours his army.Then we read in Revelation 20:11-15 This is the great white throne judgement for the rest of the dead who did not take part in the first resurrection.This judgement has the power of death(see Rev.20:5-6) This judgement causes death and hell to deliver up the dead.
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Louemma
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ryanoneil
Guest
Just so I’m clear! Are you saying that every righteous person worthy of heaven, who had ever lived and died since the creation of man, will be resurrected at this time? And they will recieve a glorified body, along with those who will be raptured?
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ryanoneil
Guest
When will the righteous who die during the 1000 years be resurrected to recieve their glorified body?
can you explain (1) another way? It is not clear who you are refering to.
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brb2
Guest
How do you explain those who arose from the tombs, and were seen Bodily … on the Day of the Cross ? [1st or 2nd …] And, what applied for the host of OT saints taken to heaven by Christ … following the Day of the Cross ?
Can our spirits exist apart from some type of physical body ? The Church has already rejected ‘soul sleep’. Are you suggesting the Catholic saints are spiritual beings only ?
We teach body & soul … for mankind. Christ had body & soul … when holding human form. Even once glorified … he had body & soul. We called the Arians heretical for believing Christ had only a Spiritual presence.
Lets be consistent … or else it all just ALLEGORY.
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brb2
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I see. Since its been MORE than 1000 … that makes it Amillennial.
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Louemma
Guest
Wait I’m confused here,are you saying that when the tombs burst opened and the saints of many were seen walking the streets that this was a first bodily resurrection?
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brb2
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Where is the historical evidence over last 2000 years to support your conclusions ?
Explain Nero, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, Vandals, Vikings, Lenin, Stalin, Moslem Extremists, child molestors, jeffrey dahmers, etc, etc.
satan currently bound ? … yet isn’t he still able to raise hell on children, Jews, Christians :sad_yes:
Doesn’t sound like the 1000 year peaceful reign of Christ that John was shown by Angel of the Lord. Seems more like an ongoing mini-trib period … to be followed by a major trib w/o precedent.
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brb2
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Well, not the NORM for sure. But, it appears the 1st Bodily resurrection for those. Christ raised the dead during his ministry, so did Paul & Peter, and those resurrected had both body & soul.
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ryanoneil
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I’m not ready to comment on those who arose from the tomb.
Was Jesus body in the tomb between Good Friday and Easter Sunday? Yes
Was his spirit in that body in the tomb? No
His spirit existed apart from some type of physical body. I am saying the saints in heaven are spiritual beings only until the return of Christ. That is what the Church teaches.
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ryanoneil
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“Thousand” is symbolic for a long time. It is not to be taken literally.
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brb2
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CFJ … what say you ? Do you buy Ryanoneil’s read of Rev ?
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ryanoneil
Guest
The historical evidence of Satan’s chaining is the resurrection of Christ.
How can anyone enter a strong man’s house and steal his property, unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can plunder his house. (Mt 12:29)
The strong man is Satan, whom Jesus has tied up and whose house he is plundering. What do you think salvation is?
You were dead in your transgressions and sins in which you once lived following the age of this world, following the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the disobedient. All of us once lived among them in the desires of our flesh, following the wishes of the flesh and the impulses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like the rest. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of the great love he had for us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, brought us to life with Christ (by grace you have been saved), raised us up with him, and seated us with him in the heavens in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. (Eph 2:1-7)
What then shall we say? Shall we persist in sin that grace may abound? Of course not! How can we who died to sin yet live in it? Or are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life. For if we have grown into union with him through a death like his, we shall also be united with him in the resurrection. We know that our old self was crucified with him, so that our sinful body might be done away with, that we might no longer be in slavery to sin. For a dead person has been absolved from sin. If, then, we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. We know that Christ, raised from the dead, dies no more; death no longer has power over him. As to his death, he died to sin once and for all; as to his life, he lives for God. Consequently, you too must think of yourselves as (being) dead to sin and living for God in Christ Jesus. (Rom 6:1-11)
Read that as literally as you are trying to paint Revelation.
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brb2
Guest
Yes … that verse is Allegory. Satan is NOT a man … but, an angel, a created ‘spiritual’ being. Cast down from heaven … to earth, where he rules the ‘secular’ man/woman.
Here is the take home message of that verse. Satan becomes satan (with a small s) … for those who are now IN CHRIST. Before our Rebirth INTO Christ … he ruled our thoughts/deeds. We were convinced, by him, that we were Kings. EVERYMAN a KING or QUEEN … right ? We were ‘deadmen/women’ walking. But, now we are made ALIVE … and protected by Christ. It’s the Universal Catholic fold [which includes many Protestants] who have been ‘released’ from hold of satan. He is en-prisoned … with regard to the ‘Churched’ Christian … provided we persevere, abiding IN CHRIST, not forsaking the Church [the body of believers In Christ]. The Church represents the ‘sheepfold’. Those inside are safe … the blood of the lamb protects us.
The Church is the Ark that saves us ! Foresake the Church, and we foresake Christ, the Captain of the Ship … and we risk being thrown overboard. Apostasy comes knocking at our ‘unprotected’ door. “Better if he [we] had never been born” … per Christ.
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JustaServant
Guest
From the PROTESTANT KJV.
The Greek word for ‘signified’ is σημαίνω or sēmainō. It means to give a sign, to signify, indicate. In other words, it is a book of signs and symbols.
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Louemma
Guest
Yes this is my understanding in scripture on this event.
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Louemma
Guest
You know that the bodily resurrection is still to come,right?
Now let’s look at Revelation 20 again.You believe that the binding of Satan occurred with the resurrection of Jesus Christ.Why do you believe this?Because death no longer has a hold on a child of God?The reason for this is Jesus died for the sins of the world and he now holds the keys of death and hell.This is not the binding of Satan.He is still operating very much in this world.Revelation 20 says he is bound and will not deceive the nations for a 1000 years.Now whether this is a 1000 years our time or God’s time is not the issue but is Satan bound right now?We know according to God’s word he will be bound and will not deceive the nations and we can look at the world on this very day and what nations come to mind that are deceived and they follow a false God?The Islamic faith is about as many as Christians and we know that Allah is not our Father.These nations are deceived and they are so by Satan.He is not bound,not yet.He is limited to what he can do to a child of God but he is not bound or we would not see Christians oppressed or possessed if he was bound.
So if Satan is not bound then we know the 1000 year reign has not begun and we know this to be 100% a fact because in Revelation 20 the scripture plainly says that"Blessed are those who take part in the first resurrection for they will rule and reign with Christ a 1000 years.
The Resurrection of the dead has not occurred and we know this because going back to 1 Thess 4 we know that the dead in Christ rise first and those who are alive and remain are caught up TOGETHER in the air to meet the Lord
ryanoneil we are still here in a sinful body and all the graves still hold the bodies of the dead in Christ so there is no evidence to support that any of Revelation has already happened and this includes Nero as the man of Lawlessness.Jesus tells us in Matthew 24 that this time will be the worst ever or will ever be on the earth.Nero like Hitler is only a foreshadow of the beast.
I can’t answer your question about the ones who die during the 1000 year reign because the scripture don’t give us this information about the ones who die during this period of the 1000 year reign.More likely from scripture,at the great white throne judgement because the book of life is mentioned and we know the children of God before the 1000 year reign already have their glorified bodies and we know this and you can refer to 1 Thess 4 to confirm this
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