The Rapture

[Cristian_B]

This was an easy one though. And you forgot that a winged lion was a common symbol of Babylon in non-biblical sources as well. In fact I would say you misinterpreted the whole speed thing for Babylon.

Nope. Let’s take a look at the first beast:

The first was like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle. I watched until its wings were torn off and it was lifted from the ground so that it stood on two feet like a man, and the heart of a man was given to it. (Daniel 7:4)

If it does not specify how many wings, so we understand 2 wings (or a pair). So Babylon had 2 wings. It conquered pretty fast but soon it had it’s wings taken away, so it’s expansion stopped.

After that, I looked, and there before me was another beast, one that looked like a leopard. And on its back it had four wings like those of a bird. This beast had four heads, and it was given authority to rule. (Daniel 7:6)

As you see, the third beast was like a leopard: agile, fast, etc. It had 4 wings (or 2 pairs) so it had great conquering speed. Babylon was fast but the fastest empire was Greece. This empire had 4 wings, not 2. You can’t deny that Alexander the Great conquered so much in so less time. My belief stands firm: wings represent conquering speed.

(Edited)

I know about the lion thing. There are drawings and statues of lions found in Babylon. But such as the lion is “the king of the jungle” so was Babylon: there was no greater and richer empire, and it will never be.

 

[brb2]

This beast had four heads, and it was given authority to rule.

(Daniel 7:6)

As you see, the third beast was like a leopard: agile, fast, etc. It had 4 wings (or 2 pairs) so it had great conquering speed. Babylon was fast but the fastest empire was Greece. This empire had 4 wings, not 2. You can’t deny that Alexander the Great conquered so much in so less time. My belief stands firm: wings represent conquering speed.

(Edited)

.

:yup: And also, those 4 Generals …as you mentioned earlier.

 

[CWBetts]

Nope. Let’s take a look at the first beast:

The first was like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle. I watched until its wings were torn off and it was lifted from the ground so that it stood on two feet like a man, and the heart of a man was given to it. (Daniel 7:4)

If it does not specify how many wings, so we understand 2 wings (or a pair). So Babylon had 2 wings. It conquered pretty fast but soon it had it’s wings taken away, so it’s expansion stopped.

After that, I looked, and there before me was another beast, one that looked like a leopard. And on its back it had four wings like those of a bird. This beast had four heads, and it was given authority to rule. (Daniel 7:6)

As you see, the third beast was like a leopard: agile, fast, etc. It had 4 wings (or 2 pairs) so it had great conquering speed. Babylon was fast but the fastest empire was Greece. This empire had 4 wings, not 2. You can’t deny that Alexander the Great conquered so much in so less time. My belief stands firm: wings represent conquering speed.

(Edited)

I know about the lion thing. There are drawings and statues of lions found in Babylon. But such as the lion is “the king of the jungle” so was Babylon: there was no greater and richer empire, and it will never be.

You have a magesterial document to back your assertion up? If not, it is just opinion. Why must it be wings ONLY mean conquering speed? I am just spitballing here, but in the case of the leopard it is speed, in the case of Babylon it is just used because everybody knew that Babylon was represented by a winged lion to provide a starting point. Just as with the statue, the golden head was spelled out directly in the scriptures, but the rest were not. Therefore the wings on the lion no not represent speed out of necessity. It is just the royal emblem of Babylon. DOn’t miss the forest for the trees

 

[Louemma]

This would seem a valid reading of prophetic scripture. However, since the Angel told Daniel that the End-Time prophesy would be sealed up til the final days … we can’t confirm the ‘details’ of this just yet. I do think the overall Outline is valid, and useful in study of End-Time scriptures.

We can only confirm the end times by the signs that Jesus talks about in Matthew 24,the catching away is a mystery and that is why we,meaning no one can pin point when this event will happen.We are not even clear on whether it’s pretrib or at the end.The reason for this is so the enemy will not know what hour the Lord will return.
If we know Jewish history then we understand that Israel only would go to battle with the enemy when God gave the orders to do so and they would not go to battle unless the Lord gave them the go ahead.We also know God would have them strike their enemies in the night at an hour that was unexpected.This is how the Jewish people went to war.Jesus was Jewish and he taught Jewish people with Jewish customs.Now to understand some of Jesus’s teachings,one must know Jewish customs or one will not realize the significant information in some of his teachings.
As Jesus said “It will be like in the days of Noah” meaning the catching away.Noah warned everyone of the coming storm and Noah was ridiculed by the people.The storm they were warned of came and swept them all away.The Catching Away will be as in the days of Noah.People marrying and going about every day life not giving heed to the warning and if these people don’t have their house in order,meaning if they are not ready to go then they will be as like in the days of Noah and the tribulation will come upon them and Jesus said it will be such a horrible time on earth,like never before or ever again.
We know that no one will ever be able to pin point the time of his coming but when we see the signs we are told to look up and know that are redeemer is near,right at the door.

 

[Cristian_B]

You have a magesterial document to back your assertion up? If not, it is just opinion. Why must it be wings ONLY mean conquering speed? I am just spitballing here, but in the case of the leopard it is speed, in the case of Babylon it is just used because everybody knew that Babylon was represented by a winged lion to provide a starting point. Just as with the statue, the golden head was spelled out directly in the scriptures, but the rest were not. Therefore the wings on the lion no not represent speed out of necessity. It is just the royal emblem of Babylon. DOn’t miss the forest for the trees

They don’t mean only conquering speed, but in this case, they do. The wings can have other meanings as well, but I do not know what other meanings they could have in this prophecy. Do you have any ideas?

 

[JustaServant]

Getting back on topic.
Here is a good artile from Catholic Culture:

Five Myths About the Rapture
by Carl E. Olson
Three years ago I mentioned to a Catholic friend that I was starting to work on a book critiquing the Left Behind novels. I explained that it would thoroughly examine premillennial dispensationalism, the unique apocalyptic belief system presented, in fictional format, within those books. Premillennial dispensationalism teaches that the “Rapture” and the Second Coming are two events separated by a time of tribulation and that there will be a future millennial reign of Christ on earth. “Why?” she asked, obviously bewildered. “No one really takes that stuff seriously.”

That revealing remark merely reinforced my desire to write Will Catholics Be “Left Behind”? (Ignatius, 2003). Other conversations brought home the same point. Far too many people — including a significant number of Catholics — don’t recognize the attraction and power of this Fundamentalist phenomenon. Nor do they appear to appreciate how much curiosity exists about the “end times,” the book of Revelation, and the “pretribulation Rapture” — the belief that Christians will be taken up from earth prior to a time of tribulation and the Second Coming.

More…
catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=5788&CFID=26098681&CFTOKEN=38030304

 

[JustaServant]

For brb:

MYTH 4�

�The early Church Fathers believed in the Rapture and the millennial kingdom on earth.�

This clever argument, used by Ryrie, LaHaye, Lindsey, and others, is effective in persuading those with little knowledge of historical theology or the beliefs of the early Church. True, several early Christian writers��notably Papias, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Hippolytus, Methodius, Commodianus, and Lactanitus��were premillennialists who believed that Christ�s Second Coming would lead to a visible, earthly reign. But the premillennialism they embraced was quite different from that taught by modern dispensationalists.

Catholic scholars acknowledge that some of the Fathers were influenced by the Jewish belief in an earthly Messianic kingdom, while others embraced millennarianism as a reaction to the Gnostic antagonism toward the material realm. But the Catholic Church does not look to one Church Father in isolation�or even a select group of Fathers�and claim their teachings are infallible or definitive. Rather, the Church views their writings as valuable guides providing insights and perspectives that assist the Magisterium��the teaching office of the Church�in defining, clarifying, and defending Church doctrine.

Those early premillennialists did not hold to distinctively modern and dispensationalist beliefs, especially not the belief in a pretribulation Rapture and the radical distinction between an earthly and a heavenly people of God; such beliefs didn�t come about until many centuries later. The early Church Fathers, whether premillennialist or otherwise, believed that the Church was the New Israel and that Christians�consisting of both Jews and Gentiles (cf. Romans 10:12)��had replaced the Jews as God�s chosen people.

In attempting to prove the validity of their beliefs by appealing to early Church Fathers, dispensationalists always ignore the Church Fathers� unanimous teachings about the nature of the Eucharist, the authority and nature of the Church, and a host of other distinctively Catholic beliefs. They also conveniently blur the lines between the historical premillennialism of certain early Church writers and the dispensational premillennialism of Darby and his disciples.

 

[brb2]

For brb:

Myth you say

We know the OT Jews believed in a Millennial Kingdom. Christ did not teach against this … so we know it is valid understanding.

The Angel gave this revelation to John …in the post-Cross, Church era.

Yes, the Early Church STRONGLY believed in Rapture in their age. But, when it didn’t occur as quickly as they envisioned [within several hundred years] … Origen, Augustine, and others, started to work up other scenarios of scriptural meaning.

Again, the Millennial Kingdom is primarily a Jewish belief, and the early Church’s expectation was for the Rapture, not the Jewish Kingdom with Christ on this Earth. Christ clearly told us that his Kingdom had already come upon the Christians. We are IN CHRISTUS ---- his Kingdom HAS COME … and will be done … for us on Earth, as it is in Heaven.

We are to live in steady, unfailing hope of his BLESSED APPEARING, his return for the Church, and our Rapture. THEN comes the GREAT & TERRIBLE TRIB, the GLORIOUS Millennial Kingdom, the White Throne Judgment, and the Final day for satan.

 

[JustaServant]

No one has trouble with the word ‘Rapture’ - what we take issue with is the Pre-Trib secret Rapture doctrine. All orthodox Christians believe in the bodily resurrection at Christ’s 2nd Coming. “I believe in . . . the resurrection of the dead” - Apostles Creed

At the end of time, Christ will return and we shall all be caught up and changed in the twinkling of an eye. There is no re-instatement of Jewish sacrifices (sacrilege) nor any 3rd Temple or return to Jewish feasts (unless it is done by the anti-christ) - therefore anyone who is looking for these things to come is looking in the exact wrong direction. All who are alive at the time of Tribulation will undergo a great trial, just as Christ did - there will be no secret Rapture to whisk them away, nor will there be any future millenium.

The Church’s ultimate trial (CCC)

675 Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.574 The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth575 will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.576

676 The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,577 especially the “intrinsically perverse” political form of a secular messianism.578

677 The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection.579 The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God’s victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.580 God’s triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.581

Millenarialism (aka Chiliasm) has been ruled a heresy by mainstream Christianity.
And read:
catholic.com/library/Rapture.asp

 

[JustaServant]

1 Thess. 4:17; 17
Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together 4 with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Nothing about pretribulation

2 Thess. 2:1-51
We ask you, brothers, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling with him, 2 not to be shaken out of your minds suddenly, or to be alarmed either by a “spirit,” or by an oral statement, or by a letter allegedly from us to the effect that the day of the Lord is at hand. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For unless the apostasy comes first and the lawless one is revealed, the one doomed to perdition, 4
who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god and object of worship, so as to seat himself in the temple of God, 4 claiming that he is a god-- 5 do you not recall that while I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his time.

Again nothing here about pretribulation rapture.

Deut. 33:2
2 He said: “The LORD came from Sinai and dawned on his people from Seir; He shone forth from Mount Paran and advanced from Meribath-kadesh, While at his right hand a fire blazed forth and his wrath devastated the nations.”

Nothing to do with pretrib rapture. More a discussion of how God helped give them the Promised Land.

Rev. 19:14
14 The armies of heaven followed him, mounted on white horses and wearing clean white linen. Nothing about pretrib rapture. More about the ultimate battle between the light and darkness.

2 Peter 3:3-4

Let’s view in full context:

3 Know this first of all, that in the last days scoffers will come (to) scoff, living according to their own desires
4 and saying, “Where is the promise of his coming? From the time when our ancestors fell asleep, everything has remained as it was from the beginning of creation.”
5 They deliberately ignore the fact that the heavens existed of old and earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God;
6 through these the world that then existed was destroyed, deluged with water.
7 The present heavens and earth have been reserved by the same word for fire, kept for the day of judgment and of destruction of the godless.
8 But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like one day.
9 The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a mighty roar and the elements will be dissolved by fire, and the earth and everything done on it will be found out.

No mention of pretrib rapture, plus Peter’s continued emphasis that it will come when we least expect it.

1 Cor. 15:51-52
51
Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall not all fall asleep, but we will all be changed,
52 in an instant, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Paul believed that the Lord’s coming was imminent. Again, nothing here about pretrib rapture, but rather what happens at the very end, when the resurrection of the body and the true “rapture” will take place.

 

[JustaServant]

brb,
I fear that you are trying to combine solid Catholic teaching with Pre-millenial heresy. Since they are opposed to one another, only one can be right and only the other can be wrong. Simple as that. These teachings IMHO will lead you away from the Church, not toward it.

 

[brb2]

Millenarialism (aka Chiliasm) has been ruled a heresy by mainstream Christianity.
And read:
catholic.com/library/Rapture.asp

Well, … since the Early Church believed in it, many ECF’s writing on it for 300 years, … that will make for some ‘interesting’ reading.

Its one thing to kick out Eusebius and Arius [God actually killed him just before he could receive Eucharist, having a duplicitous, unrepentant heart] … quite another to anathematize the first 300 years of Church saints. :whacky:

 

[brb2]

These teachings IMHO will lead you away from the Church, not toward it.

No way. I came to the Church with them. They look solidly scriptural to me. You will need to convince me why I need give them up. I’ll recant of, before leaving the Apostolic Church [that held them from Day 1 ]

 

[JustaServant]

No way. I came to the Church with them. They look solidly scriptural to me. You will need to convince me why I need give them up. I’ll recant of, before leaving the Apostolic Church [that held them from Day 1 ]

After 28 pages and over 400 posts with tons of information and links…

 

[brb2]

read:
catholic.com/library/Rapture.asp

What’s the Catholic Position? … (you cite)

As far as the millennium goes, we TEND TO AGREE with Augustine, …and derivatively, with the amillennialists. … In 1940’s the Holy Office judged that Premillennialism “cannot safely be taught”, though the Church HAS NOT DOGMATICALLY DEFINED THIS ISSUE.

With respect to the rapture, Catholics certainly believe that the event of our gathering together to be with Christ WILL TAKE PLACE, though they do not generally use the word "rapture’ to refer to this event (SOMEWHAT IRONICALLY, SINCE THE TERM “RAPTURE” IS DERIVED FROM THE TEXT OF THE LATIN VULGATE // 1st Thess. 4:17 ---- “we will be caught up,” Latin: rapiemur] ).

NIHIL OBSTATE: B. Carr, 2004 ////// IMPRIMATUR: R. Brom, 2004

---

Why is it not dogmatic ? Because we know it was the accepted Catholic teaching for first 300 years of Church. We don’t toss out our Traditional Apostolic teachings … unless we are certain that Augustine got it right on his second examination. Which would mean Justin Martyr and Irenaeus were misinformed & in error … I :dts:

 

[Louemma]

No one has trouble with the word ‘Rapture’ - what we take issue with is the Pre-Trib secret Rapture doctrine. All orthodox Christians believe in the bodily resurrection at Christ’s 2nd Coming. “I believe in . . . the resurrection of the dead” - Apostles Creed

At the end of time, Christ will return and we shall all be caught up and changed in the twinkling of an eye. There is no re-instatement of Jewish sacrifices (sacrilege) nor any 3rd Temple or return to Jewish feasts (unless it is done by the anti-christ) - therefore anyone who is looking for these things to come is looking in the exact wrong direction. All who are alive at the time of Tribulation will undergo a great trial, just as Christ did - there will be no secret Rapture to whisk them away, nor will there be any future millenium.

Millenarialism (aka Chiliasm) has been ruled a heresy by mainstream Christianity.
And read:
catholic.com/library/Rapture.asp

To start off you need to remember the warning about adding to,or taking away from the book of Revelation
Now in having said that,where do get that there is not a Millennial reign?There will be a Millennial reign and we know this by reading God’s word .
You say there will not be a 1000 year reign and I’m calling you out on that one.The 1000 year reign will happen.What authority can you lay claim to saying the 1000 year reign is been ruled heresy?Also you say there will not be a secret Rapture/Catching away to whisk the people away.Jesus plainly says that he will come at an hour know one knows,not the angels not the son but only the Father.This sounds like a secret to me.When he does come the dead rise and those who are alive will be changed in an twinkling of an eye(Whisk Means Rapid) and the twinkling of an eye is pretty rapid and we will be Caught Up in a whisk.

 

[zach_dunn]

Well, … since the Early Church believed in it, many ECF’s writing on it for 300 years, … that will make for some ‘interesting’ reading.

Its one thing to kick out Eusebius and Arius [God actually killed him just before he could receive Eucharist, having a duplicitous, unrepentant heart] … quite another to anathematize the first 300 years of Church saints. :whacky:

The doctrine of a pre-tribulation rapture is false because it requires that Christ come to earth three times:

1. 
   *]The first time is obviously His Incarnation.
   *]The second time would be before the tribulation (according to pre-trib rapture theology), see 1 Thess 4:17.
   *]The third time would be when He comes to judge all of the resurrected people [Rev 20:12; Mt 25:31-32; note that this judgment comes *after the tribulation (see Rev 20:7), therefore the rapture would have happened already].
   
   The most glaring contradiction here is . . .
   
   1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
   For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord.
   
   So from verse 16 we know that the resurrection of all humans will happen at the rapture, this is incompatible with a pre-trip rapture doctrine because according to Rev 20:12, the resurrection and judgment come after the tribulation. A pre-trib rapture is simply impossible.

 

[Louemma]

The doctrine of a pre-tribulation rapture is false because it requires that Christ come to earth three times:

1. 
   *]The first time is obviously His Incarnation.
   *]The second time would be before the tribulation (according to pre-trib rapture theology), see 1 Thess 4:17.
   *]The third time would be when He comes to judge all of the resurrected people [Rev 20:12; Mt 25:31-32; note that this judgment comes *after

1. 
   the tribulation (see Rev 20:7), therefore the rapture would have happened already].
   
   The most glaring contradiction here is . . .
   
   1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
   For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord.
   
   So from verse 16 we know that the resurrection of all humans will happen at the rapture, this is incompatible with a pre-trip rapture doctrine because according to Rev 20:12, the resurrection and judgment come after the tribulation. A pre-trib rapture is simply impossible.
   
   The catching away we know according to scripture happens before the judgement spoken of in revelation 20:12
   Read Revelation 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1000 years were ended,This is the first resurrection.
   Revelatio 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection.The second death has no power over them,but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will rule and reign with him for a thousand years.
   
   The judgement you speak of in Revelation 20:12 will be after the 1000 year reign.So a pretrib Rapture is very possible because 1 Thess 4 says that we will be Caught up to meet the Lord in the air.The catching away spoken of in 1 Thess 4 claims we will meet Jesus in the air.Could this mean the Catching away is NOT a coming of the Lord but a gathering together of God’s children.You see 1 Thess 4 never states Jesus comes to the earth but rather his children are Caught up to him.If this is the meaning of the Catching away then “YES” a pretrib Rapture is very possible.According to …
   
   Revelation 3:10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently,I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.
   The scripture plainly states that the Lord has promised those who are his, that he will keep them from the trial and the test(Tribulation) that is coming.That is why in scripture it says"Pray to be counted worthy to escape" Escape what?What trial and test is coming to test those who live on the earth?How will Jesus keep his children from the trial and test(Tribulation) ?
   A pre tribulation Rapture fits in light of the above scriptures.

 

[crazzeto]

To start off you need to remember the warning about adding to,or taking away from the book of Revelation
Now in having said that,where do get that there is not a Millennial reign?There will be a Millennial reign and we know this by reading God’s word .
You say there will not be a 1000 year reign and I’m calling you out on that one.The 1000 year reign will happen.What authority can you lay claim to saying the 1000 year reign is been ruled heresy?Also you say there will not be a secret Rapture/Catching away to whisk the people away.Jesus plainly says that he will come at an hour know one knows,not the angels not the son but only the Father.This sounds like a secret to me.When he does come the dead rise and those who are alive will be changed in an twinkling of an eye(Whisk Means Rapid) and the twinkling of an eye is pretty rapid and we will be Caught Up in a whisk.

First of all, why did you bring up the warning from the end of Revelation, no one has added to or taken away from it in any sense. Secondly, did you bother reading his link? Thirdly in exactly what sense do you understand the trinity? There can’t be any secerets the father keeps from the son, they are perfectly one!

 

[CentralFLJames]

Myth you say

We know the OT Jews believed in a Millennial Kingdom. Christ did not teach against this … so we know it is valid understanding.

The Angel gave this revelation to John …in the post-Cross, Church era.

Yes, the Early Church STRONGLY believed in Rapture in their age. But, when it didn’t occur as quickly as they envisioned [within several hundred years] … Origen, Augustine, and others, started to work up other scenarios of scriptural meaning.

Again, the Millennial Kingdom is primarily a Jewish belief, and the early Church’s expectation was for the Rapture, not the Jewish Kingdom with Christ on this Earth. Christ clearly told us that his Kingdom had already come upon the Christians. We are IN CHRISTUS ---- his Kingdom HAS COME … and will be done … for us on Earth, as it is in Heaven.

We are to live in steady, unfailing hope of his BLESSED APPEARING, his return for the Church, and our Rapture. THEN comes the GREAT & TERRIBLE TRIB, the GLORIOUS Millennial Kingdom, the White Throne Judgment, and the Final day for satan.

Come on BRB - get past this naive and childish rationale.

The Jews also believed and still teach that Jesus was a heretic and cursed man who deserved crucifixion. Are you going to renounce your faith in Christ that was handed down to you by the Catholic Church 2,000 years ago based on what the Jews believed?

Jesus did not teach about a lot of things that were held beliefs back among various sects of Jews in His day.

You are now making appeals to emotion using large case words like STRONGLY believed in rapture. You have no evidence of this. If it was a strongly held belief as you say then it would certainly have been added to the Creed in the line that talks about the resurrection from the dead. But it doesn’t and so it was not a strongly held belief.

Give it up - pre-trib rapture has been utterly defeated in this discussion 10 or more times now. I am ready to unsubscribe or request the moderator to close it.

James