B
brb2
Guest
Not much there to disprove the rapture … IMO.
- Status
B
brb2
Guest
Expound upon this. Give us the Catholic understanding of Chp. 20 & 21.
B
brb2
Guest
So far … none have answered your question.
I don’t think Catholics really know. At least I’ve never seen a unified answer …supported by scripture.
Why would Christ and Paul mention/describe the rapture … if it was to remain a mystery ?
S
Spencerian
Guest
Louemma,Once again I say Revelation 20:4-5 says "Blessed are those who take part in the first resurrection,these folks will rule and reign with Christ a 1000 years.
Clearly the first resurrection is still to come.If you read 1 Thess 4,these scriptures here talk about the first resurrection.How the dead in Christ rise and we who are alive and remain are changed and we are all caught up TOGETHER in the air to meet the Lord.
Now this is clearly not at the very end of time because we go back to revelation 20:4-5,Blessed are those who take part in the first resurrection for they will rule and reign with Christ for a 1000 years on this earth.
Now Satan will be bound and you can read this I believe in Revelation 20,Satan is bound then.So we read in Revelation 20:4-5 Blessed are those who take part in the first resurrection for they reign with Christ.
Then we make our way to Revelation 20:7 and we read that when the 1000 years are up Satan is released and makes war on the saints and of course is defeated along with his evil minions
Then we make it to Revelation 20:11 and here we read about the great white throne judgement and this is the second resurrection that was mentioned in Revelation 20:4-5 this is usally held as the judgement for those who are in hell since it says death and hell deliver them up and we know that Jesus dying on the cross for all of us,we have eternal life through the blood of the lamb so therefore we know as God’s children Death has no hold on us.So then we realize that the great white throne judgement and death and hell delivering up the dead, this second resurrection is for those who are held by the power of death and hell because they are the ones who deliver them up.And Death and Hell has no hold on a Child Of God baby!!
So the good news here is the first resurrection is not at the very end of time,you’ll rule here with Christ for another 1000 years:thumbsup:
Once again I will say,I did not post this for a debate.I thought perhaps if I gave you scripture you could see what I see and then you would know
If I can make a suggestion, I recommend that you take a look at the online New American Bible (NAB), the official Catholic English translation in the United States, to help with your study of the Catholic view of the Book of Revelation. This online edition, while not a comprehensive Catholic study guide, is heavily footnoted with information on many verses in Revelation that do, as Catholics have believed for centuries, recognize the most dangerous times of the early Church–the persecution by the Roman Empire.
As the footnotes indicate, don’t get too literal on the use of years in much of the Bible. The “1,000 year” usage is often to refer to an indeterminately long time. Given when the Scriptures were compiled, if we take the year references literally, the Second Coming should have happened, well, a thousand or more years ago, which hasn’t happened.
The Book of Revelation always has a foreboding air to it to many Christians–but not Catholics. If you’re able to glance at the study footnotes, you’ll get a better understanding that might help.
Oh, Revelation has one bit of Scripture that I recall that emphasizes the Body of Christ and the communion of saints–that is, that Catholics aren’t wrong to ask saints to pray for us to Christ while we ourselves pray to Christ for aid. That’s Revelation 8:1-4. There, the angels give to the Lord the prayers from the holy ones (these can only be saints, souls in heaven, who are the only other holy ones other than God and his angels). Of course, the saints received those prayers from us below.
The NAB has a summary introduction about the book of Revelation that should help you understand where and how the Roman Empire is characterized. Because of the symbology of the Roman lands in Revelation text, many Protestants mistakenly characterize the Catholic Church itself as the “beast” and “whore of Babylon” and this and that, which is wrong since the Vatican and its basilica would not exist for many years later. (The “Whore”, by the way, is actually the city of Jerusalem.)
B
brb2
Guest
Christ is quoted as having said essentially this would happen at his return … [two in the field, one take up, one left behind]As an aside – I get a kick reading those fundamentalist bumper stickers that say “warning - this car will be driver-less when the rapture occurs”.
So was Christ speaking in Parables or Allegorically, etc … ??
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
A few general comments:
It is extremely risky for an uninitiated lay person who lacks deep theological, historical and prophetic insights to try to interpret the Book of Revelation to try to second guess specific details about the “when, where, who” etc. of end-times and Antichrist. The 2000 year old Catholic Church who draws upon all its resources and the writings of the Early Church Fathers has chosen to “safely teach” only specific things about the eschatological events.
It is very unwise for individuals not equipped with sufficient educational background and schooling to go in and attempt a private interpretation or to try to reverse engineer scripture to fit to any popular “end times” theories in current circulation. Many of the pop and psuedo-religious “left behind” sort of books are extremely poorly researched (pure unsubstantiated opinions with no references to early church or respected theologians), lack any pedigree and are based on the thinnest of theological insight and true apostolic teachings. Most of “what is out there” are myths and sensationalism – things designed to occupy a variety of “bed-wetter” imaginations and get them hooked on the sensationalism to come back to buy the 2nd edition and revised books as each new variation of ideas is re-published.
One of the finest Catholic minds in Catholic prophecy and the Early Church Fathers, Dedmond A. Birch, is of the opinion that:
Most who believe that the Parousia are just around the corner are:
Here is a little fact that most Catholics do not even know. Under certain conditions the "Fathers…, are of SUPREME authority whenever they ALL interpret in one and the same manner ANY text of the Bible.[sup]1[/sup] Ref: Providentissimus Deus Pope Leo XIII] So, in specific eschatological issues WHERE THE CHURCH HAS NOT ISSUED DEFINITIVE STATEMENTS, the FATHERS are the FIRST place to look for a Catholic answer.
ANYONE (Catholic or non-Catholic) who is not familiar with the eschatological pronouncements of The Church, and certain eschatological of the Church’s Early Fathers is ill-prepared to be discerning about ANY private prophecy or interpretation of “end times”.
Birch has researched over 23 years all the early church writings on the matter from Vatican Archives and come up with these highly insightful opinions. He has ALSO examined ALL the approved private prophesies from Saints and Blessed as back up sources and pieced together the best of the best of Catholic Prophecy that shows remarkably clear progression of prophecy over many centuries. Things said by one saint in one era without knowledge of another saint show remarkable correlation – but even these highly correlated sources are taken secondary to scripture and tradition of the ECFs.
The BOTTOM LINE is NOTHING can be ADDED to the Deposit of Faith - only elaborated on in greater clarity as the Holy Spirit teaches His Church. Jesus has spoken ALL Truth in relation to what concerns us in our salvation but told us the Holy Spirit will reveal greater insights into these same teachings as we are ready to receive them.
[continued]
James
It is extremely risky for an uninitiated lay person who lacks deep theological, historical and prophetic insights to try to interpret the Book of Revelation to try to second guess specific details about the “when, where, who” etc. of end-times and Antichrist. The 2000 year old Catholic Church who draws upon all its resources and the writings of the Early Church Fathers has chosen to “safely teach” only specific things about the eschatological events.
It is very unwise for individuals not equipped with sufficient educational background and schooling to go in and attempt a private interpretation or to try to reverse engineer scripture to fit to any popular “end times” theories in current circulation. Many of the pop and psuedo-religious “left behind” sort of books are extremely poorly researched (pure unsubstantiated opinions with no references to early church or respected theologians), lack any pedigree and are based on the thinnest of theological insight and true apostolic teachings. Most of “what is out there” are myths and sensationalism – things designed to occupy a variety of “bed-wetter” imaginations and get them hooked on the sensationalism to come back to buy the 2nd edition and revised books as each new variation of ideas is re-published.
One of the finest Catholic minds in Catholic prophecy and the Early Church Fathers, Dedmond A. Birch, is of the opinion that:
- The coming of Anti-Christ as a “system” or “institution” or circumstance or any kind of millennium is NOT consonant with Scripture, Nor Sacred Tradition (in particular the Early Church Father’s and Church Doctors). Antichrist when he arrives is a man in the flesh with a human soul and he is NOT the pope (as some mavric Lutheran sects still officially teach) since that would mean Christ’s promise that the gates would not prevail against His Church was not true.
- Mankind is actually approaching a unique period of its history which is HOPE-FILLED. Sometime between NOW and the advent of Anti Christ mankind will probably experience an age of peace.
- Through God’s proffered easy way of the radical inner conversion of men and women OR
- Through a Chastisement of rather dynamic proportions.
Most who believe that the Parousia are just around the corner are:
- Receiving this information from EXTRA biblical sources (e.g. Darby’s works), 2) Seriously misreading scripture.
Here is a little fact that most Catholics do not even know. Under certain conditions the "Fathers…, are of SUPREME authority whenever they ALL interpret in one and the same manner ANY text of the Bible.[sup]1[/sup] Ref: Providentissimus Deus Pope Leo XIII] So, in specific eschatological issues WHERE THE CHURCH HAS NOT ISSUED DEFINITIVE STATEMENTS, the FATHERS are the FIRST place to look for a Catholic answer.
ANYONE (Catholic or non-Catholic) who is not familiar with the eschatological pronouncements of The Church, and certain eschatological of the Church’s Early Fathers is ill-prepared to be discerning about ANY private prophecy or interpretation of “end times”.
Birch has researched over 23 years all the early church writings on the matter from Vatican Archives and come up with these highly insightful opinions. He has ALSO examined ALL the approved private prophesies from Saints and Blessed as back up sources and pieced together the best of the best of Catholic Prophecy that shows remarkably clear progression of prophecy over many centuries. Things said by one saint in one era without knowledge of another saint show remarkable correlation – but even these highly correlated sources are taken secondary to scripture and tradition of the ECFs.
The BOTTOM LINE is NOTHING can be ADDED to the Deposit of Faith - only elaborated on in greater clarity as the Holy Spirit teaches His Church. Jesus has spoken ALL Truth in relation to what concerns us in our salvation but told us the Holy Spirit will reveal greater insights into these same teachings as we are ready to receive them.
[continued]
James
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
[from prior]
The Oral Tradition of the Church on this subject which subsequently submitted to writing by the ECFs is voluminous. The ECFs wrote entire books on the subject. It would take a lifetime for any one person to assimilate all we collectively know about end times from the time of the Early Church. Add in the many volumes of Private Prophecy revealed to saints and one is overcome at the massive information that The Church has on this topic. TRUST the Church to tell us what is feels it can safely tell us. In Birch’s survey of the subject matter he was so overwhelmed by the sources of information that he had to exclude over 90% of what was available to his personal knowledge just to get his nearly 600 page book published in a single large volume. He feels that it would take over three dozen large volumes of books to present the basics of what private revelation The Church has acknowledged and held worthy of consideration.
From the 5th century until the Anabaptists 1000 years later MILLENARIANISM WAS A DEAD TOPIC FOR CHRISTIANS. The Catholic Church REJECTS Millenarianism as heretical since it can only be found by out of context reads of scripture and by discounting virtually all the ECFs.
THERE IS NO literal 1000 year period of a peaceful reign of Christ on earth as some of the heretical branch of Christians are now believing and teaching.
Right now in this time it is HIGHLY improbably that this is the time of Antichrist. But we can be certain that there are more smaller “anti-christs” yet to emerge to test the Church and to reveal who the faithful will be. REPEAT - CURRENT times have NEGATIVE signs that this is the time of Antichrist.
That said, there is a high probability that a conditional MINOR CHASTISEMENT could be imminent. This will be world wide and utterly changing the director of human history. If it comes or not we get the same outcome - a MASSIVE conversion to the true Catholic Faith and a massive change of heart away from pure secular concerns of this age.
To some degree, as we look around us everyone is fearful of the future and sees horrid and despicable things in their cultures and societies that disturb them. THIS alone is the whithering effect of sin and the calamities that result from that could itself cause humankind to REPENT and change its heart as it sees that is can’t control itself or do anything good without cooperating with God and having his blessings.
Devout Christians can take refuge in the Lord’s words “DO NOT BE AFRAID”.
But those who persecute Christians and disrespect our moral outrage at what is going on in our “society” have MUCH to fear. These will be “snatched away” to where the vultures gather sooner or later.
James
The Oral Tradition of the Church on this subject which subsequently submitted to writing by the ECFs is voluminous. The ECFs wrote entire books on the subject. It would take a lifetime for any one person to assimilate all we collectively know about end times from the time of the Early Church. Add in the many volumes of Private Prophecy revealed to saints and one is overcome at the massive information that The Church has on this topic. TRUST the Church to tell us what is feels it can safely tell us. In Birch’s survey of the subject matter he was so overwhelmed by the sources of information that he had to exclude over 90% of what was available to his personal knowledge just to get his nearly 600 page book published in a single large volume. He feels that it would take over three dozen large volumes of books to present the basics of what private revelation The Church has acknowledged and held worthy of consideration.
From the 5th century until the Anabaptists 1000 years later MILLENARIANISM WAS A DEAD TOPIC FOR CHRISTIANS. The Catholic Church REJECTS Millenarianism as heretical since it can only be found by out of context reads of scripture and by discounting virtually all the ECFs.
THERE IS NO literal 1000 year period of a peaceful reign of Christ on earth as some of the heretical branch of Christians are now believing and teaching.
Right now in this time it is HIGHLY improbably that this is the time of Antichrist. But we can be certain that there are more smaller “anti-christs” yet to emerge to test the Church and to reveal who the faithful will be. REPEAT - CURRENT times have NEGATIVE signs that this is the time of Antichrist.
That said, there is a high probability that a conditional MINOR CHASTISEMENT could be imminent. This will be world wide and utterly changing the director of human history. If it comes or not we get the same outcome - a MASSIVE conversion to the true Catholic Faith and a massive change of heart away from pure secular concerns of this age.
To some degree, as we look around us everyone is fearful of the future and sees horrid and despicable things in their cultures and societies that disturb them. THIS alone is the whithering effect of sin and the calamities that result from that could itself cause humankind to REPENT and change its heart as it sees that is can’t control itself or do anything good without cooperating with God and having his blessings.
Devout Christians can take refuge in the Lord’s words “DO NOT BE AFRAID”.
But those who persecute Christians and disrespect our moral outrage at what is going on in our “society” have MUCH to fear. These will be “snatched away” to where the vultures gather sooner or later.
James
C
Church_Militant
Guest
But there is here. The Rapture?
I think you need to look at some of the better sources. John Martignoni has a absolutely excellent Bible study available as free MP3 download called, The Rapture and the Bible What will really happen on “The Last Day” that will be informative for anyone interested.
His notes are found here.
There is also a very good apologetics booklet for study called.
http://shop.catholicapologetics.com/images/1166426830964382967293.jpeg
Beginning Apologetics 8: How to Explain and Defend the End Times: What Catholics believe about the Second Coming, the Rapture, Heaven, Hell, Purgatory, and Indulgences. (40 pages, $5.95)
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CentralFLJames
Guest
The key thing to understand here BRB2 is WHO is snatched.
Here’s some clues: “The meek inherit the earth”. When the floods came in Noah’s time the evil were washed away.
The scenario that agrees with scripture and does not conflict with any official Church teachings is this:
*]After the False Prophet prepares the way for Antichrist the latter ascends to power and immediately starts persecuting The Church for 3 1/2 years.
*]During the persecution the “Two Witnesses” (OT figures Enoch and Elias who never died) return from “paradise” and preach mostly against Antichrist (Elias teaches the Jews and Enoch teaches the Gentiles). This is the foreshadowing of the final Jewish conversion.
*]Antichrist personally kills them in Jerusalem and their corpses lay in the streets for 3 1/2 days. After this God verbally and audibly commands from heaven for the two to arise — which terrifies God’s enemies. The Jews convert.
*]Antichrist drunk on pride in a last attempt to regain and bolster his following among men and regain the Jews to his side attempts to emulate Christ by simulating His ascension from Mt. Olivet. But St. Michael at Christ’s command casts Antichrist down screaming in terror to his death.
*] It is generally believed that there will still be a final short period of time of unknown duration after Antichrist is cast down for the remaining inhabitants to repent and accept The Lord and the Gospel.
*]At some point thereafter a physical transformation of the universe is manifest (Mat 24,9, mark 13, 24f;Luke 21,25f) and the world is purified by fire in teh final conflagration (2 Peter 3,5-7;cf. 1 Cor 3,13). Then ONLY will the Son of Man appear in heaven (Matt 24, 30; Mark 13,26;Luke 21,27). Here I would add my own personal comments that this is “the baptism by fire” – but I am not certain.
*]Then comes the end of the world and the “Four Last Things”; Death, the Last Judgement, Heaven, Hell.
AGAIN, millenarism aka Chiliasm was REJECTED by the Church long long ago in the 5th century. Montanism also tried to teach it but it was cast out as heretical since they both DENIED the “Christ is the end of the ages” vision and AWAITED still ANOTHER period of MORE definitive salvation to follow AFTER the age of Christ. There can be NO OTHER age after Christ since Christ is eternal and NOTHING comes after Christ’s 2nd coming except His Glory and what God has prepared for those who love him in HIS KINGDOM established on Heaven and Earth.
The only thing Catholics can agree with is that there is a rapture but it happens AFTER the tribulation - NOT before. The rapture is minor event compared to Christ’s coming.
James
C
Cliftoncol
Guest
The rapture is Christian belief that forms a major part of the current teaching and expectations of fundamentalist and other evangelical denominations. In its most popular current form, the doctrine involves Jesus Christ returning from Heaven towards earth.
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
I think we have stated the Catholic position. The “rapture” or “catching away” happens on the LAST DAY. This is the END OF TIME.
The BOOK or Revelation CAN NOT and MUST NOT be read as a linear sequence of events. It is more mystical and poetic to give the sense of eternity and a coalescing of ALL of Christian events in one collage of imagery. It brings together the same mystical aspect of the Catholic Mass were we join all our fellow Christian Saints in heaven and on earth to Christ on the Cross and HIS TRIUMPH over Satan in rising again after being obedient and faithful to The Father. AGAIN - REVELATION CAN NOT be READ in a linear fashion since it makes NO SENSE to read it in a linear timeline. It projects the entire Christian experience in one vision that knits together all the scriptures in no particular order that we can fully fathom.
THERE IS NO LITERAL 1000 year reign of Christ on Earth and a second battle with Satan. I will say it again - THERE IS NO LITERAL 1000 year reign of Christ and a 2nd battle with Satan. The imagery of 1000 years is meant to convey “eternity” in the same sense that scripture tells us a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day to God. What there is, is an ETERNAL reign of Christ.
Those “dead in Christ” are risen FIRST then those STILL ALIVE are brought together with Christ and those so risen to usher Christ into His Triumph. But this does not happen till THE LAST DAY. There is no more human history after the resurrection - so there is no 1000 year reign on earth in the literal sense that the fundamentalists and evangelicals want to read it - that would make no sense at all and contradict too may other scripture verses. There can only be a SINGLE 2nd coming and ONE resurrection.
The LAST ENEMY is DEATH and that is conquered when CHRIST honors his promise to raise up those faithfully departed who trusted in Him and did exactly as He commanded by eating His Body and drinking His Blood so that they will have eternal life and be risen again.
After the 7th trumpet in Revelation 11:15-18 “it’s over”.
James
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
As I mentioned earlier the latter bit that I mentioned is personal opinion and is NOT official Church teaching. I was wrong to say that a minor chastisement MUST come - this is a conditional chastisement that can be avoided if man repents. It comes from my readings of Desmond Birch and others who have studied the Catholic teachings, scriptures, ECFs and the Saints private revelations to put together a more detailed scenario that the CC does not elaborate on. This scenario does not conflict with any of the Church teachings or the ECFse etc. and can be generally believed - but it is not essential belief for any Catholic. The only thing Catholics MUST believe is the resurrection of the dead, the 2nd comming of the Lord, and His final victory. What else is in the Catechism in this subject matter is really given by the Church to explicitly REJECT Millenarianism and its variants (pre-trib and mid-trib rapture scenarios) that contradict the scriptures and the apostolic teachings and the ECFs.
James.
B
brb2
Guest
Thanks to CFJ & CM 
Now you are pointing us to the Catholic understandings … to the degree the Church currently understands. I thought you two probably knew — just have to challenge you to give up your ‘Tradition’ sources.
Good thread, its high time the Church more openly address this topic for the former Protestants among us to consider. But yes, CFJ, as you admit … scripture is of highest value. Since Christ and Paul taught a rapture event … we can ‘bank on it’ happening. Christ will return in the clouds again … just as he left this earth. Those IN CHRIST will be caught up. All scriptural prophecy MUST be fulfilled.
Now you are pointing us to the Catholic understandings … to the degree the Church currently understands. I thought you two probably knew — just have to challenge you to give up your ‘Tradition’ sources.
Good thread, its high time the Church more openly address this topic for the former Protestants among us to consider. But yes, CFJ, as you admit … scripture is of highest value. Since Christ and Paul taught a rapture event … we can ‘bank on it’ happening. Christ will return in the clouds again … just as he left this earth. Those IN CHRIST will be caught up. All scriptural prophecy MUST be fulfilled.
D
Drawmack
Guest
Please note that Catholic theology states that the millennial reign is symbolic and not an actual thousand years, they also believe we are currently in this period and have been since Pentecost. This is why their stance is called amillennial.
D
Drawmack
Guest
If you believe that the Catholic Church is Christ on Earth and you worship Christ then you worship the Catholic Church. That is the root issue of my problems with Catholic theology.
J
JustaServant
Guest
Don’t make it sound like that is peculiar to Catholics. That is the Reformed position as well.
S
Spencerian
Guest
Hi, Drawmack.
Your logic and understanding of Catholic theology is misunderstood.
The Church is only the humble bride of Christ (not Christ Himself), left here for us to teach and guide us.
Catholics do not worship anything or anyone but God himself. We venerate (honor) Mary and the saints because they were holy human beings that followed Christ’s example. We pray to them as you might pray for someone in need, as all prayers go to God alone, are acted on by God alone, for only He has the power to enact anything. The saints, as successes in God’s eyes, simply put in a good word for us and pass it along. If the saints have any powers at all, they were given to them by God to help them hear us as we pray to them in heaven.
Catholics really mean it when we speak of the Body of Christ. You are always a part of the Body, living or in heaven, and we all work together to help each other to salvation by living our faith and not simply proclaiming it.
The word “pray” simply means, “to tell.” Prayer, in and of itself, is not worship. (Recall the use of the archaic lines in romance novels: “Pray tell that…”). Same thing. Asking for a saint’s intercession (their good word) on behalf of a prayer offered to Christ (as all prayers to God are) is as good as asking a friend to pray for you when we or others are in a spot of trouble.
Why do we pray often to saints and to Mary? Because, although Christ became incarnate for us to believe, it is still humbling to speak directly to God (the Jews had a big problem with that with God as they knew him in the Hebrew testament, and it still lives on today in some of our minds). We can and do pray directly to Christ, but the saints, as testaments to the many that did God’s will, also show us a path through their example.
L
Louemma
Guest
Revelation to be sure is a book to be searched out completely and with careful consideration and knowledge of God’s word in it’s entirety.Everyone needs to read and hear the word from this book of Revelation,according to Jesus Christ,Revelation 1:3 tells us that we who read and hear the words of this book are blessed.Lord in heaven knows that we all need a blessing running the race
I appreciate all the responses,and I now have a better understanding where the Catholics stand on the end time events.However I realize that the 1000 years is not our time.In the word I believe it says something to the effect that a 1000 years is but a day with the Lord.
Now in my studies I have come to know and understand in part,then one day I will know it clearly.Like Paul said"As if looking through a dimmed mirror"
The one thing that is clear however is the “First Resurrection” is still to come.According to God’s word when the Resurrection takes place,The dead in Christ rise first and we who are alive and remain are Caught Up Together in the Air.
We all agree here,if one stays in accordance to God’s word.
Since this has not happened yet then we know in agreement to God’s word that We are not in the 1000 year rule and reign of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ.
There is no doubt about this if we are to stay in accordance to the word of God and God’s word tells us in 1 Thess 4 that when the resurrection takes place “We are going up”
and were still here and so are the bodies of the dead saints.
I can not see that we are in fact in the 1000 year reign with Christ because to believe so is not staying in accordance to the Word of God.
Anyone care to try and show me how it lines up in scriptures that we are in the 1000 year reign?
Thank You
I appreciate all the responses,and I now have a better understanding where the Catholics stand on the end time events.However I realize that the 1000 years is not our time.In the word I believe it says something to the effect that a 1000 years is but a day with the Lord.
Now in my studies I have come to know and understand in part,then one day I will know it clearly.Like Paul said"As if looking through a dimmed mirror"
The one thing that is clear however is the “First Resurrection” is still to come.According to God’s word when the Resurrection takes place,The dead in Christ rise first and we who are alive and remain are Caught Up Together in the Air.
We all agree here,if one stays in accordance to God’s word.
Since this has not happened yet then we know in agreement to God’s word that We are not in the 1000 year rule and reign of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ.
There is no doubt about this if we are to stay in accordance to the word of God and God’s word tells us in 1 Thess 4 that when the resurrection takes place “We are going up”
and were still here and so are the bodies of the dead saints.
I can not see that we are in fact in the 1000 year reign with Christ because to believe so is not staying in accordance to the Word of God.
Anyone care to try and show me how it lines up in scriptures that we are in the 1000 year reign?
Thank You
M
michaeldaniels
Guest
I didn’t realize so many protestants understand theology, scripture, and tradition more than Church Fathers and Theologians such as Aquinas and St. John of The Cross…their finite understanding of it all is pale in comparison to some of these people who are able to break open the scriptures and definitively tell us what is going to happen…There is no need for a Magisterium anymore 
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
Yes - but the bit that most don’t understand is that Christ is NOW in the process of making all His enemies His footstool. We are on the literal threshold of the finality of The Kingdom of God (or using the birthing metaphor of all creation moaning and groaning waiting for Christ to perfect His Church and her members to deliver for God).
There is a 1000 year reign - but not in the literal sense. **This is NOW the 1000 year reign but it spans from the time of the resurrection here on earth to all eternity in heaven AND earth (again - to God a day [even The Day of The Lord] is as a thousand years and thousand years as a day). **The BIG mistake most make is in thinking the Book of Rev. is on HUMAN TIME - it is NOT. The trumpets in heaven are clear depiction that we are on God’s Time. And in God’s time there is no sequential time - everything is simultaneously PAST, PRESENT and FUTURE. That is Eternity and WHY it is utter folly to try to read a mystical book like The Book of Revelation left to right and top to bottom in a linear progression of human time. It is specifically meant to be read as one continuum with an almost dream like and timeless essence and symbolism.
The Church has ruled definitively and infallibly that there is no literal 1000 year reign of Christ on earth - that is too limiting. Christ rules for eternity in HEAVEN AND EARTH.
The entire notion of Millenarianism (e.g. the idea that the kingdom of God on earth will last a literal thousand years [a millennium]) is not scriptural. Christ is ruling NOW in heaven and earth – in the latter case through His Church and through Divine Providence. There is not a single thing any evil person can do to change the objective end that God has in store for humanity (Divine Plan). It’s already a “done deal”. Catholics should re-reread the Catechism 668-682
I am posting a few of the Catechism paragraphs:
CC 670 Since the Ascension God’s plan has entered into its fulfillment. We are already at “the last hour”.554 "Already the final age of the world is with us, and the renewal of the world is irrevocably under way; it is even now anticipated in a certain real way, for the Church on earth is endowed already with a sanctity that is real but imperfect."555 Christ’s kingdom already manifests its presence through the miraculous signs that attend its proclamation by the Church.556
cc 671 Though already present in his Church, Christ’s reign is nevertheless yet to be fulfilled “with power and great glory” by the King’s return to earth.557 This reign is still under attack by the evil powers, even though they have been defeated definitively by Christ’s Passover.557 Until everything is subject to him, "until there be realized new heavens and a new earth in which justice dwells, the pilgrim Church, in her sacraments and institutions, which belong to this present age, carries the mark of this world which will pass, and she herself takes her place among the creatures which groan and travail yet and await the revelation of the sons of God."559 That is why Christians pray, above all in the Eucharist, to hasten Christ’s return by saying to him:560 Marana tha! “Our Lord, come!”
cc 672 Before his Ascension Christ affirmed that the hour had not yet come for the glorious establishment of the messianic kingdom awaited by Israel562 which, according to the prophets, was to bring all men the definitive order of justice, love and peace.563 According to the Lord, the present time is the time of the Spirit and of witness, but also a time still marked by “distress” and the trial of evil which does not spare the Church564 and ushers in the struggles of the last days. It is a time of waiting and watching.565
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CC 675 Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.574 The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth575 will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.576
CC 676 The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,577 especially the “intrinsically perverse” political form of a secular messianism.
James
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