The Rapture

[Louemma]

Pondering is good!

It’s good that you are here; sure, we’re all helping to give you the fullness of the Christian faith as we have been taught over millennia, but converting you isn’t our objective. The Holy Spirit will see to that when (or if–It may have other plans for you) the time comes.

To me, the hardest part about worshipping God–in any faith or capacity–is not to “steer” the Word into what you might think it is, but to let the Word and Spirit guide you to the truth, surrendering to the whole passages and not soundbites.

I particularly pay attention to things when I’m told something I don’t like–the truth has a tendency to offset our mindset, but, regardless, it may still be the truth. It takes a little time to digest, that’s true.

Yep, we Catholics believe in a rapture…just not as Hollywood-epic as some make it out to be.

Well we agree because I never was speaking about a Holly Wood rapture
I believe that one must look at each and everything carefully and with an open mind.How else can one learn the truth if they don’t let the Holy Spirit lead them into searching it out.I suppose it would seem hard to some but let us not forget that there are some who may have to search out some things that others may have been blessed to have already received.

 

[Ben_F]

I love this thread and all the posts. Jesus said that I would know the truth if I kept his commandments. He kept his part of the deal. I must confess, that I have failed in keeping my part of the deal. God bless Catholic Answers:thumbsup:

 

[Drawmack]

The lesson from the flood is that except for Noah and his family, the rest of his generation were destroyed by God’s judgment. The righteous will be left, just as his family were spared, and the wicked will be taken, as Noah’s generation was swept away by the flood.

I might be mistaken, but does the Bible actually state that EVERY person except for Noah’s family was wicked? That there was not one, single man woman or child on the entire face of the earth who was righteous?

 

[Randy_Carson]

The following was posted this evening by Padrej, an Anglican Bishop, in another thread here:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6069488#post6069488

It has never ceased to amaze me the number of persons who get caught up in the “rapture” debate. Before 1830 nobody in the church really spoke of it in theological circles. Most of the basis for the rapture doctrines that many Protestants cling to is based on the vision of a 15 year old non Christian girl from Scotland named Margaret McDonald. The Plymouth Brethren got a hold of it and soon the Presbyterians, but what made it take root was that it was mentioned as a passing footnote in the first edition of the Scofield Study Bible; most figured because it is in the Bible it must be true so it took off.

Since that time there has been nothing but division in the church over post and pre tribulation rapture that it is now discussed 5 different ways. I ask if Satan is also called the “father of confusion” and this has caused so much confusion in the church, WHO really introduced this to the church??? Was it God who is not of confusion or Satan?

biblicist.org/bible/pretrib.shtml
theseventhmillennium.com/Rapture%20Vision.htm
tribulationcentral.com/origins-ptr.html

To tell the truth, If Jesus said, “NO ONE KNOWS the day or hour” not even Him, but he warned us be ready and not to worry over this; why are we even discussing it? OH I get it, that must have been pre dispensation when Jesus said that so it is OK to fight over this issue.

 

[Drawmack]

except the protestants are missing 7 books from OT that their founders did not like and removed

What does this have to do with the topic at hand? If you would like to discuss this issue why not start a new thread. Can we please stay on topic?

what is now a legion (37,000+) denominational names

What does this have to do with the topic at hand? If you would like to discuss this issue why not start a new thread. Can we please stay on topic?

 

[Drawmack]

Please post any evidence of the teaching of the ‘rapture’ prior to the 20th century.

Actually, you should change that to the 19th as Darby wrote extensively in the 1800’s

 

[Randy_Carson]

What does this have to do with the topic at hand? If you would like to discuss this issue why not start a new thread. Can we please stay on topic?

What does this have to do with the topic at hand? If you would like to discuss this issue why not start a new thread. Can we please stay on topic?

CentralFLJames explained the connection in the post as follows:

But I want to get past some of these as tangntial to the topic at hand. You claim that the “snatching away” is not a new teaching but you CAN’T point to a single historical record that proves anything of what you say is true. The Church never taught this – and “The Church” here means Catholic Church since there was NO other “church” (small c) in existence until Orthodox went into schism (but are still part of us as apostolic Christians) and until the so called reformers excommunicated themselves and invented new ecclesial communities with what is now a legion (37,000+) denominational names.

He’s discrediting this “tradition of (Protestant) men” by pointing to the fact that these Protestants are not associated with the ONE true Church that Jesus founded which has never taught this false doctrine.

Seems like a pretty clear segue to me.

 

[Holly3278]

If the rapture was true, there would have to be two more times that Jesus would return to the earth. First, he’d have to return to the earth to “rapture” all the believers into Heaven. Then, he’d have to return at the end of the “great tribulation”. The Bible speaks only of Christ returning once more, not twice more!

 

[Holly3278]

I would also recommend the following book:

http://www.aquinasandmore.com/images/items/54531sm.jpg

 

[panevino]

Yes there is scripture to indicate that believers are in fact the ones caught up.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
To print out the verse that speaks of Christians Caught Up
1 Thess.4:17 After that,we who are alive and remain will be “Caught Up” together with them to meet the Lord in the air.

Do a study on the word “Parousia”

So what I’m reading is that while
Catholic church does not agree with “pre tribulation catching Away of faithfull” my understanding is that
Catholics see a “post tribulation catching away”

which makes sense when reading
1thess 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Again… On this topic … I’m learning.

 

[Louemma]

So what I’m reading is that while
Catholic church does not agree with “pre tribulation catching Away of faithfull” my understanding is that
Catholics see a “post tribulation catching away”

which makes sense when reading
1thess 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Again… On this topic … I’m learning.

That is how I read it.However don’t use the word RAPTURE because it throws everybody off.According to scripture we will be caught up.This is not a new teaching,the Catching Away or else why would Paul be talking about this in Thess 4.

 

[CentralFLJames]

So what I’m reading is that while
Catholic church does not agree with “pre tribulation catching Away of faithfull” my understanding is that
Catholics see a “post tribulation catching away”

which makes sense when reading
1thess 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Again… On this topic … I’m learning.

Yes this is an accurate statement. The word “Rapture” comes to us FROM THE ORIGINAL BIBLE - the CATHOLIC LATIN VULGATE. EVERY TIME a Protestant parrots the word “rapture” (which has Latin roots) they are professing the authority of the Catholic Church for developing the bible and defining the bible cannon. It took Protestants the last 200 years to figure that out so now they have changed the word “rapture” to the phrase “snatched up” or “catching away” in their new translations - it’s laughable.

In essence CATHOLIC DO believe in the Rapture - but NOT in the twisted neo-Chrisian sense that the fundamentalist Christians do viz John’ Darby’s new innovations and conjectures. Catholics BELIEVE that AFTER the tribulation Jesus “raptures” all the goodly souls into heaven in one big divine action of “mass gathering-in” of His flock.

The entire pre-trib rapture/snatch-away myth falls apart when one counts the number of times Christ has to have His 2nd coming for the theory to even work at a structral level. Pre-trib rapture requires TWO second comings! Even a child can count on his fingers that that is not going to work as scripture clearly says that there can be only ONE second coming – unless we want to completely redefe the human languages/semantics and making the apostles and Jesus speak out of both sides of their mouth in scripture.

As an aside – I get a kick reading those fundamentalist bumper stickers that say “warning - this car will be driver-less when the rapture occurs”. Now does that not fall into being sympathetic to the devil and his evil minions who are “left behind”?

God help us get through this current age of irrationality…

James

 

[Louemma]

Yes this is an accurate statement. The word “Rapture” comes to us FROM THE ORIGINAL BIBLE - the CATHOLIC LATIN VULGATE. EVERY TIME a Protestant parrots the word “rapture” (which has Latin roots) they are professing the authority of the Catholic Church for developing the bible and defining the bible cannon. It took Protestants the last 200 years to figure that out so now they have changed the word “rapture” to the phrase “snatched up” or “catching away” in their new translations - it’s laughable.

In essence CATHOLIC DO believe in the Rapture - but NOT in the twisted neo-Chrisian sense that the fundamentalist Christians so viz John’ Darby’s new innovations and conjectures. Catholics BELIEVE that AFTER the tribulation Jesus “raptures” all into heaven in one big divine action of mass gathering-in of His flock.

The entire pre-trib rapture/snatch-away myth falls apart when one counts the number of times Christ has to have His 2nd coming to work - it requires TWO second comings and even a child can count on his fingers that that is not going to work as scripture clearly says that there can be only ONE second coming without completely redefing the human languages and making the apostles and Jesus speak out of both sides of their mouth in scripture.

I get a kick reading those fundamentalist bumper stickers that say “warning - this car will be driver-less when the rapture occurs”. Now does that not fall into being sympathetic to the devil and his evil minions who are “left behind”?

God help us get through this current age of irrationality…

James

There seem to be some among us that have lost their Joy and we should pray for such.As Christians we are to be kind and love one another.When joy seems to be vacant in one who professes to have the love of the Father in them,it can make the soul become bitter or grouchy to be sure.

 

[tweetymom]

There seem to be some among us that have lost their Joy and we should pray for such.As Christians we are to be kind and love one another.When joy seems to be vacant in one who professes to have the love of the Father in them,it can make the soul become bitter or grouchy to be sure.

Amen to that sister

 

[CentralFLJames]

There seem to be some among us that have lost their Joy and we should pray for such.As Christians we are to be kind and love one another.When joy seems to be vacant in one who professes to have the love of the Father in them,it can make the soul become bitter or grouchy to be sure.

Who? Moi?

Now Louemma, how did you get through the grinning emoticons (e.g. ) to arrive at the judgment of “bitter and grouchy”?

Catholics are known for taking great comfort and peace in joyfully-suffering their own faults as well as each other’s duplicity, criticism and glee in deriving a sense of self-righteousness at their expense.

The prayers are always welcome. Thanks.

But didn’t you know that even Jesus’ mother, the apostles and Jesus Himself had their less than joyful days over some things so provocative that it disturbed their peace:

*To wit:

Luke 2:48, 49, “They were overcome when they saw him, and his mother said to him, ‘My child, why have you done this to us? See how worried your father and I have been, looking for you.’ He replied, ‘Why were you looking for me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father’s house?’”

Math 23:33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

John 18:10 Simon Peter then, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest’s slave, and cut off his right ear; and the slave’s name was Malchus.

Gal 1:9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned.

John 13:21 After he had said this, Jesus was troubled in spirit and testified, “I tell you the truth, one of you is going to betray me.”
Grumpy no. I’ll admit to being annoyed that there is such profound error and innovative new gospels never taught in the early church being preached in Catholic forums as truth by “guests” who want to re-teach and “save” Catholics from their true apostolic faith.

That said, I can make improvements (as we all can) and can appreciate your perspective and feedback.

James

 

[Louemma]

Who? Moi?

Now Louemma, how did you get through the grinning emoticons (e.g. ) to arrive at the judgment of “bitter and grouchy”?

Catholics are known for taking great comfort and peace in joyfully-suffering their own faults as well as each other’s duplicity, criticism and glee in deriving a sense of self-righteousness at their expense.

The prayers are always welcome. Thanks.

But didn’t you know that even Jesus’ mother, the apostles and Jesus Himself had their less than joyful days over some things so provocative that it disturbed their peace:

*To wit:

Luke 2:48, 49, “They were overcome when they saw him, and his mother said to him, ‘My child, why have you done this to us? See how worried your father and I have been, looking for you.’ He replied, ‘Why were you looking for me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father’s house?’”

Math 23:33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

John 18:10 Simon Peter then, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest’s slave, and cut off his right ear; and the slave’s name was Malchus.

Gal 1:9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned.

John 13:21 After he had said this, Jesus was troubled in spirit *and testified, “I tell you the truth, one of you is going to betray me.”

Grumpy no. I’ll admit to being annoyed that there is such profound error and innovative new gospels never taught in the early church being preached in Catholic forums as truth by “guests” who want to re-teach and “save” Catholics from their true apostolic faith.

That said, I can make improvements (as we all can) and can appreciate your perspective and feedback.

James

See James that’s just it,I may be here to learn instead of teach
You are so busy defending your faith that you automatically assume that I don’t like catholics, or something like that

 

[CentralFLJames]

See James that’s just it,I may be here to learn instead of teach
You are so busy defending your faith that you automatically assume that I don’t like catholics, or something like that

No, I discern that you are sincere Louemma and I want to help answer your questions.

You have not taken the normal pattern of “Catholic baiting” with a leading question only to use it as a spring board for debate. The problem is you have an entourage of fellow Protestants who are commenting on your pssts and our Catholic responses and trying to conflict us in a pattern of debate so we can’t engage you in a more congenial peer-to-peer form of interaction – which is extremely sad to me since you are the rare sort of objective Protestant/non-Catholic truely seeking answers and the kind we love to try to assist.

James

 

[Louemma]

No, I discern that you are sincere Louemma and I want to help answer your questions.

You have not taken the normal pattern of “Catholic baiting” with a leading question only to use it as a spring board for debate. The problem is you have an entourage of fellow Protestants who are commenting on your pssts and our Catholic responses and trying to conflict us in a pattern of debate so we can’t engage you in a more congenial peer-to-peer form of interaction – which is extremely sad to me since you are the rare sort of objective Protestant/non-Catholic truely seeking answers and the kind we love to try to assist.

James

Well thank You James.
I am seeking answers.Also I am not here to debate.I am here to search scripture and 1 Thess 4 speaks of the catching away.We know this event is a scriptural event.However I understand your concern about the teaching of an Holly wood type Catching away and I’m concerned with what Paul is actually saying.We know he is talking about being caught up and I’m after learning what the Catholics think on this.
So far I have discovered that half the Catholics think this is a false doctrine,even though it’s scripture.The misunderstanding of the catching away is truly sad if one don’t even believe it to be in the word of God.Because it’s there,the catching away in 1 Thess 4.

 

[Church_Militant]

Does the Catholic Faith hold to the doctrine of “The Catching Away,The Rapture?”

I wrote an article on this for my blog. Here’s the link. The Rapture?

So far I have discovered that half the Catholics think this is a false doctrine,even though it’s scripture.

The misunderstanding of the catching away is truly sad if one don’t even believe it to be in the word of God.Because it’s there,the catching away in 1 Thess 4.The problem there is that you mistake our disagreement with your interpretation of the scriptures as opposed to the fact that we have no problem at all with what the scriptures actually say.

You might also find it worth your time to download this free MP3 Bible study on this at The Rapture and the Bible and the notes for it are here.

 

[panevino]

That is how I read it.However don’t use the word RAPTURE because it throws everybody off.According to scripture we will be caught up.This is not a new teaching,the Catching Away or else why would Paul be talking about this in Thess 4.

I think most Catholics here( corrcect me anyone if I
wrong) assume you mean pre tribulation catching away when rapture is mentioned.
Which is what I think everyone is saying is a young theory.

Post tribulation “caught up/catching away” Is apparently the old early Christian /catholic interpretation.