The Rapture

[Louemma]

In a way we have already risen with Christ and we already truely participate in the heavenly life of him. We already belong to the body of Christ. So Jesus glory is hid from the world and the glory which have because of our communion with him is also “hidden.” When he returns and when we rise with him it will appear fully and will no longer be hidden.

I understand that to be absent from the body is present with the Lord.I will agree upon death our body returns to dust and our spirit returns to God who gave it.So I can see how you think that upon death,when the spirits return to God that this could be the first Resurrection.
However we know that before Jesus the spirit of man went down into the heart of the earth and we know that by Jesus dying on the cross that the spirit of man now goes to the Father/paradise and awaits the day that God brings them back with Jesus to receive their glorified body 1 Thess 4
So the word resurrected means restored,so in a since the death of a child of God and the spirit no longer going down but up could be a resurrection of the spirit.The problem I have is the soul of man has never died even before the cross.So the spirit of man being resurrected up into Heaven is what you believe to be the first resurrection.I see how this might be.

 

[sauce]

Whereas Scripture does not support THE Rapture, Scripture does support A Rapture – for Real Presence Consuming Catholics!!!

So this is the conclusion that I am reaching in regards to the responding post.
(1)That most Catholics believe in a catching away but not until the end of days.
(2) That most Catholics believe that we are in the 1000 year reign but not really, because the 1000 year reign is symbolic.
(3) Satan is bound,even though he is like a roaring lion,seeking whom he can destroy.
(4) We must not search the scriptures but go solely on what has been revealed to the saints?
(5) The Catholic church is the body of Christ.
(6)And by one statement made in a post here,If your not Catholic then your not the body of Christ.
(7) And the Catching away is only for real presence consuming Catholic.

Folks the conclusion that I have arrived at on basis of the various evidence is that the catholic faith believe that they are the only ones who will make it in to the kingdom of God.
Is this correct in reaching this conclusion?

As regards #7, Peter Dawson referred to “A” Rapture not “THE” Rapture.
I took it to mean “an ecstasy” as one would be caught up into Christ. The reception of Holy Communion.

Catholics are more attuned to The Parousia. This being The Second Coming of Christ.
At least that’s my understanding.

 

[Louemma]

Then I saw thrones; those who sat on them were entrusted with judgment. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image nor had accepted its mark on their foreheads or hands. They came to life and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (Rev 20:4)

You said this refers to an earthly resurrection when it doesn’t. The thrones and souls appear in the heavenly court throughout the book, not on earth. The martyrs died on earth and then they rose to heaven to live and reign with Christ.

Thank You I see my mistake I forgot to add Revelation 20:5-6
So what I was saying would sound as if I’m adding scripture,so let me fix the problem
Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones,and they sat upon them,and judgement was given unto them;and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the word of God,and which had not worshipped the beast,neither his image,nether had received his mark upon their foreheads or in their hands,and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.This is the first resurrection.
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection,on such the second death hath no power,but they shall be priests of God and of Christ,and shall reign with him a thousand years.

So is this the 24 elders in heaven?Because if you say yes, Revelation 20:4 then who was the beast and when did the mark take place and when were people beheaded that did not take the mark of the beast on their forehead or in their hands?

 

[Louemma]

As regards #7, Peter Dawson referred to “A” Rapture not “THE” Rapture.
I took it to mean “an ecstasy” as one would be caught up into Christ. The reception of Holy Communion.

Catholics are more attuned to The Parousia. This being The Second Coming of Christ.
At least that’s my understanding.

I am talking about The Catching away and not a catching away
Now if you like you can go back through this thread and might be surprised to find out that not all Catholics are more attuned to the Parousia.
Parousia is Greek and in the English King James Version,the word Parousia is translated as the word"Coming"

 

[brb2]

Epharaem the Syrian said, in 373 AD, "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

Perhaps this is the reason why Jesus said He will come when no one expects it; since everyone is expecting after the tribulation…LOL

The Catholic position makes no sense because of the sheep and goat separation. If the church is taken away right after the tribulation, then when He comes back to separate the sheep and the goats, there are no sheep; only goats. What do I know.

Actually, you state your Pre-Trib Rapture case rather well. I’ve always seen Pre-Trib as most logical & c/w scriptures.

Still, CFJ makes some good points … that ‘most’ ECF’s have studied this for centuries and are convinced that Pre-Trib is wrong. I need to learn the complete Catholic doctrine on End-Times.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I understand that to be absent from the body is present with the Lord.I will agree upon death our body returns to dust and our spirit returns to God who gave it.So I can see how you think that upon death,when the spirits return to God that this could be the first Resurrection.
However we know that before Jesus the spirit of man went down into the heart of the earth and we know that by Jesus dying on the cross that the spirit of man now goes to the Father/paradise and awaits the day that God brings them back with Jesus to receive their glorified body 1 Thess 4
So the word resurrected means restored,so in a since the death of a child of God and the spirit no longer going down but up could be a resurrection of the spirit.The problem I have is the soul of man has never died even before the cross.So the spirit of man being resurrected up into Heaven is what you believe to be the first resurrection.I see how this might be.

Louemma-

Call me picky, but this is important:

2 Corinthians 5:8 – Absent the Body

Many non-Catholics seek to deny the existence of Purgatory by claiming that the Apostle Paul taught that believers enter God’s presence immediately upon death. This belief is based upon a common quotation which states, “To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.”

However, this is a mis-quotation of scripture. The passage actually states the following:

2 Corinthians 5:8 (New International Version)
8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

From this, we can see that Paul never stated that being away or absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. In actuality, Paul said, “We…would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.”

Instead of this life on earth, Paul prefers two things: A) to be absent from the body and B) to be at home with the Lord. This is two things – not one.

Unfortunately, it is possible for someone to be A) absent from the body and C) in hell. It is also possible for a believer to be A) absent from the body and D) in purgatory temporarily before entering heaven.

Paul is not saying that being absent from the body IS TO BE PRESENT with the Lord – that A automatically equals B - even for the believer.

 

[brb2]

Kudos to Ryanoneil & Randy C.

Great explanations ! You’re giving us a clinic on the End Times

 

[Louemma]

Louemma-

Call me picky, but this is important:

2 Corinthians 5:8 – Absent the Body

Many non-Catholics seek to deny the existence of Purgatory by claiming that the Apostle Paul taught that believers enter God’s presence immediately upon death. This belief is based upon a common quotation which states, “To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.”

However, this is a mis-quotation of scripture. The passage actually states the following:

2 Corinthians 5:8 (New International Version)
8We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

From this, we can see that Paul never stated that being away or absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. In actuality, Paul said, “We…would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.”

Instead of this life on earth, Paul prefers two things: A) to be absent from the body and B) to be at home with the Lord. This is two things – not one.

Unfortunately, it is possible for someone to be A) absent from the body and C) in hell. It is also possible for a believer to be A) absent from the body and D) in purgatory temporarily before entering heaven.

Paul is not saying that being absent from the body IS TO BE PRESENT with the Lord – that A automatically equals B - even for the believer.

And I agree with you on what Paul is saying, We prefer to be away from the body and be home with the Lord.However we know that to be absent from the body means that the spirit has left the body.Now I am still researching Purgatory and will say that purgatory could very well be “something” and not a place. Purgatory I believe is a process of the cleansing of the soul.Like a refinery. I suppose however long this takes depends upon the condition of one’s spiritual heart,if you will.
And of course if one dies lost they will be absent from the body and be present in hell.
There really is no need to say your picky about 2 Corinthians 5:8 and the reason being is most readers understand what Paul is saying here because we know he spoke as if he was telling God’s children that we long to be absent from this body because for us who have salvation know that our spirit will vacate this world to go live in the presence of God.
This scripture here is often used in trying to show those who believe in soul-sleep scripture to disprove soul-sleep teachings and you being Catholic, I am sure would agree that soul-sleep is a false doctrine because we know that we Long to be Absent from the body because we know that absent from the body is present with the Lord and that is what Paul is saying in 2 Corinthians 5:8

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Actually, you state your Pre-Trib Rapture case rather well. I’ve always seen Pre-Trib as most logical & c/w scriptures.

Still, CFJ makes some good points … that ‘most’ ECF’s have studied this for centuries and are convinced that Pre-Trib is wrong. I need to learn the complete Catholic doctrine on End-Times.

As I always do and believe; sometimes you have to take a step back to see the forest from the tree you are looking so closely at and apply some common sense to what the actual reality to something is.

The best example that come to my mind is the “keys to the Kingdom of God”; how many keys are their to heaven, since a key represents authority, how many authorities are there to get to heaven. One, the Lord Jesus. John 3:16. It makes more "common sense that Jesus had a the keys to heaven, and gave “each a key” to the Kingdom of God. This is where stepping back and looking at the whole picture and reality of what actually happened. All the Apostles began speaking in tongues and glorifying God at the day of Pentecost, then Peter gave his sermon. All the Apostles preached the word of God or the Gospel, which the power and authority is in the message or the messenger? The message, not the messenger - again just applying a little common sense.

If it was written in the English translation as “I will give each of you the key to the Kingdom of God” ; it would not have any bearing on the Greek grammatical structure. looking at the whole scene, Jesus gathers all of them, asks what people are saying, then asks the Apostles why they say, Peter blurts out the answer and Jesus looks at Peter, knowing the rest are listening, and affirms what Peter said, then Jesus refocuses on all of them and say i will give you each a key, then as verse 30 tells us, Jesus warned ALL of them not to tell anyone the Good News, the Jesus is the Christ. So they all go the message, they all used the same message, no one was ever mentioned as superior over the other, but I do believe that Peter was a leader of the others. If you have a group of men on a specific mission, then you need at least one leader to make sure the orders are being covered and followed. Does this make the leader a better or more elevated person; no.

 

[Louemma]

Also I would like to add that besides a few differences in the way we see scripture, I agree with alot of the Catholic belief.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

And I agree with you on what Paul is saying, We prefer to be away from the body and be home with the Lord.However we know that to be absent from the body means that the spirit has left the body.Now I am still researching Purgatory and will say that purgatory could very well be “something” and not a place. Purgatory I believe is a process of the cleansing of the soul.Like a refinery. I suppose however long this takes depends upon the condition of one’s spiritual heart,if you will.
And of course if one dies lost they will be absent from the body and be present in hell.
There really is no need to say your picky about 2 Corinthians 5:8 and the reason being is most readers understand what Paul is saying here because we know he spoke as if he was telling God’s children that we long to be absent from this body because for us who have salvation know that our spirit will vacate this world to go live in the presence of God.
This scripture here is often used in trying to show those who believe in soul-sleep scripture to disprove soul-sleep teachings and you being Catholic, I am sure would agree that soul-sleep is a false doctrine because we know that we Long to be Absent from the body because we know that absent from the body is present with the Lord and that is what Paul is saying in 2 Corinthians 5:8

Not to mention there is nothing in Scripture that speaks of “purgatory”; not even remotely unless you insert into Scripture directly. Also, a Christian is a New Creation" in Christ Jesus; he said He is always with the Christian and that the Christian is one with the Father and the Son, he promised never to foresake us.

 

[CentralFLJames]

So this is the conclusion that I am reaching in regards to the responding post.
(1)That most Catholics believe in a catching away but not until the end of days.
(2) That most Catholics believe that we are in the 1000 year reign but not really, because the 1000 year reign is symbolic.
(3) Satan is bound,even though he is like a roaring lion,seeking whom he can destroy.
(4) We must not search the scriptures but go solely on what has been revealed to the saints?
(5) The Catholic church is the body of Christ.
(6)And by one statement made in a post here,If your not Catholic then your not the body of Christ.
(7) And the Catching away is only for real presence consuming Catholic.

Folks the conclusion that I have arrived at on basis of the various evidence is that the catholic faith believe that they are the only ones who will make it in to the kingdom of God.
Is this correct in reaching this conclusion?

Comments:

1. ALL Catholics with a properly informed and conforming adult conscience believe that on the Last Day Jesus will raise up BOTH the just and the wicked as part of the Perusia. There is only one general resurrection, simultaneous for the good and the bad. Those who were judged as worthy of heaven when they died remain “saved” – there is still a second judgement for all but it will bring no shame to the elect and will intensify their glory & bring greater suffering to the condemned. I don’t have the space here to give an exposition on why there is a 2nd judgement except to say that is it so that the overall extent of each soul’s good and evil acts are known to EVERY other soul.

The general idea of the “rapture” is for God to grant his people the privilege to join up and greet the newly arriving Divine King outside of the city as he approaches. The imagery used in the scriptures is the same imagery that was used in the author’s day to depict what happens when a powerful King approaches a city - the subjects go out to greet him before he enters the city and to join in the joyful profession into the city.

1. We don’t think of it as 1000 years at all – it is an eternal reign that began at the resurrection when Christ received all honor and glory from The Father. The kingdom is now in motion – principally through The Church here on earth with Christ as its head and His Vicar (the pope) as his earthly representative with the full authority of “the keys” just as the Jewish King’s Prime Minister had the full authority of The King when he was away.

3)Satan’s power was severely restrained by Christ when he rose from the dead. But God permits Satan to claim what souls he can from those who through pride and obstinancy refuse to put on the armor of God and who reject Christ’s teachings and have no other alternative but to be claimed by Satan.

1. Totally wrong. The Church strongly encourages the laity to study scripture from a Catholic theological framework and tradition that was handed down to us over the last 2,000 years. In areas where the church has not definitively ruled or interpreted, Catholics may form insights and opinions that help them in their spiritual growth and sharing of the faith. But Catholics must not teach things and conjectures which are incompatible with our faith and should be stated as personal opinion or insights when defending their faith.
2. Yes - the Catholic Church is the Body of Christ but ALSO the bride of Christ through a mystical union that is similar to what happens in a wedding. One can NOT love Jesus without also loving His bride - His Church. The Body of Christ can NOT be divided against itself and this is why it is extremely dangerous and self-defeating for those in non-Catholic faiths to spread their errors and denigrate the apostolic faith. That said there are probably very few perfect Catholics alive (saints) and most of us probably have to go to purgatory for some final sanctification and purgation when we die.
3. If you are baptised AND still in a post-baptismal state of grace (no grave unforgiven sins) then yes you are part of the Body of Christ to the degree that you continue to cooperate with grace, avoid sin and advance in sanctification. But there are a lot of subtle caveats in there since being free of grave sin brings in freewill and formed conscience.

There are some number known only to God who call themselves “Christians” who are outside of the formal membership of the Catholic Church through no fault of their own (e.g. invincible ignorance rather than through deliberate rejection of the Catholic Church) and who ARE “spiritually” Catholics but just don’t know it. The Church only says that it is “possible” for SOME outside of the formal Catholic Church to attain salvation – but also says that the NORMATIVE means is through conformance to the full Catholic teaching and full communion. There is an OBLIGATION to form one’s conscience and to know the truth.

It is extremely risky for those who are not formal members of The Church to attain salvation in this day and age where information is so easily to be had. That said, there there are NO non-Catholics in heaven. That may seem like a bold statement but it is true. There can be not a shred of division in heaven and only a 100% common faith. That means ONE FAITH with NO denominationalism and personal opinions as to what objective truth is.

At death a person is judged to heaven or to hell. Any soul judged worthy of heaven and not fully sanctified (absolute perfect purity) go to a state of purgatory where God supernaturally completes sanctification and we assume “makes them perfect Catholics with one perfect truth”.Only God knows how many (or how few souls) are only informal/coincidental Catholics.

I won’t give my own personal opinion on how many non-Catholics “make it” but will also say that there are without doubt MANY poor Catholics in hell and humanly uncountable “baptised” Christians who fell away.

James

 

[brb2]

All the Apostles began speaking in tongues and glorifying God at the day of Pentecost, then Peter gave his sermon. All the Apostles preached the word of God or the Gospel, which the power and authority is in the message or the messenger? The message, not the messenger - again just applying a little common sense.

.

It doesn’t have to be a ‘one or the other’ — ‘this or that’ dichotomy. The POWER & AUTHORITY were present in BOTH the message [the Word, the Gospel] & the messenger Peter [filled with the Word, the Holy Spirit].

And yes, Peter had the Primacy Apostolic role … yet, the other 11 and Paul ALSO had the Living Word/ H.S. within. Just like today, the Pope and his Bishops … share in COMMUNIONSHIP.

 

[CentralFLJames]

As I always do and believe; sometimes you have to take a step back to see the forest from the tree you are looking so closely at and apply some common sense to what the actual reality to something is.

The best example that come to my mind is the “keys to the Kingdom of God”; how many keys are their to heaven, since a key represents authority, how many authorities are there to get to heaven. One, the Lord Jesus. John 3:16. It makes more "common sense that Jesus had a the keys to heaven, and gave “each a key” to the Kingdom of God. This is where stepping back and looking at the whole picture and reality of what actually happened. All the Apostles began speaking in tongues and glorifying God at the day of Pentecost, then Peter gave his sermon. All the Apostles preached the word of God or the Gospel, which the power and authority is in the message or the messenger? The message, not the messenger - again just applying a little common sense.

If it was written in the English translation as “I will give each of you the key to the Kingdom of God” ; it would not have any bearing on the Greek grammatical structure. looking at the whole scene, Jesus gathers all of them, asks what people are saying, then asks the Apostles why they say, Peter blurts out the answer and Jesus looks at Peter, knowing the rest are listening, and affirms what Peter said, then Jesus refocuses on all of them and say i will give you each a key, then as verse 30 tells us, Jesus warned ALL of them not to tell anyone the Good News, the Jesus is the Christ. So they all go the message, they all used the same message, no one was ever mentioned as superior over the other, but I do believe that Peter was a leader of the others. If you have a group of men on a specific mission, then you need at least one leader to make sure the orders are being covered and followed. Does this make the leader a better or more elevated person; no.

This vignette about the body language is a non-biblical conjecture and fabrication. Give you scripture references. When Jesus appointed Peter head of His Church he was speaking DIRECTLY to Peter in the presence of the other apostles. HE NAMED PETER ROCK. He did NOT name the entire GROUP of apostles ROCK.

Don’t be ridiculous.

James

 

[Timothy_Piper]

It doesn’t have to be a ‘one or the other’ — ‘this or that’ dichotomy. The POWER & AUTHORITY were present in BOTH the message [the Word, the Gospel] & the messenger Peter [filled with the Word, the Holy Spirit].

And yes, Peter had the Primacy Apostolic role … yet, the other 11 and Paul ALSO had the Living Word/ H.S. within. Just like today, the Pope and his Bishops … share in COMMUNIONSHIP.

Not sure what you mean by “primacy”, but there is no succession or office of Pope ever mentioned in the Bible. Jesus certainly had plenty of opportunity to elevate Peter above and beyond the rest; yet Jesus called him Satan, Peter denied Him 3 times and Paul had to rebuke him; as I said he was a coordinator/leader of the bunch, but not elevated above the rest. That would go against the very nature of God who is not a respecter of persons as He said often in His Word. There is also a warning about teachers that focus on genealogies and that Greek word isn’t restricted to the ancestry aspect and in the context it spells out another picture. 1 Tim 4, 1Co. 1, Titus 3 & 1 Co. 3

Also, stepping back again, all of the Apostles were give the authority to heal the sick cast out demons etc, but again the authority is the Lord; they always did it in the “Name of the Lord”.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Not to mention there is nothing in Scripture that speaks of “purgatory”; not even remotely unless you insert into Scripture directly. Also, a Christian is a New Creation" in Christ Jesus; he said He is always with the Christian and that the Christian is one with the Father and the Son, he promised never to foresake us.

Oh contraire - but this needs to be a new thread or linked to one of the many other old purgatory in scripture threads here at CAF.

There are dozens of scripture verses that imply purgatory.

I am assuming that you are not so naive to think that because a word is not in the original Greek (because it was spoken in Aramaic to start with) then the concept is not present in the early Church. But we know words like “trinity” are not explicitly in the bible but were certainly part of the original faith. And it also helps to have a full cannon bible with all the 7 deuterocanonical books that the protestant reformers stripped out so they would not contradict their new teachings.

Here are MANY references to scripture AND many early Church fathers who also speak of purgatory:

scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html

While you are mulling that can you also please give a scripture reference that the reformers used to justify a mass rebellion against God’s Church? The only reference of an rebellion in God’s House is the OT Korah’s rebellion (ref Numbers 16). And God incenerated him and his 200 men in a pile of ash for attempting it. Not a pretty picture or good model of precedence…

James

 

[brb2]

Not sure what you mean by “primacy”, but there is no succession or office of Pope ever mentioned in the Bible. Jesus certainly had plenty of opportunity to elevate Peter above and beyond the rest; yet Jesus called him Satan, Peter denied Him 3 times and Paul had to rebuke him; as I said he was a coordinator/leader of the bunch, but not elevated above the rest. That would go against the very nature of God who is not a respecter of persons as He said often in His Word. There is also a warning about teachers that focus on genealogies and that Greek word isn’t restricted to the ancestry aspect and in the context it spells out another picture. 1 Tim 4, 1Co. 1, Titus 3 & 1 Co. 3

Also, stepping back again, all of the Apostles were give the authority to heal the sick cast out demons etc, but again the authority is the Lord; they always did it in the “Name of the Lord”.

Primacy means he GOT the KEYS … of leadership ! He was ‘numero uno’ among the 12 … and Scripture clearly teaches the others acknowledged Peter as selected and annointed by Christ for his leadership role. Paul deferred to Peter … so he tells us in his Epistles. Paul assisted Peter in Rome, but was mainly in prision during his tenure there. Peter is the ROCK … his name changed to refect his position. It wasn’t changed to Lucifer !!! Paul’s name was changed too, … but, not to ROCK.

Certainly Catholics acknowledge Peter and all Popes that followed Peter… needed ordination/selection by the Church leadership [Bishops]. But, Christ guides his Church, his Bishops, and the laity. Just as the first 12, became 11 when Judas became an apostate, were allowed to chose their Apostolic 12th man, … eversince, the Church leadership of Bishops have been empowered to select/annoint their own replacements. The laity has no ‘official’ role in Papal selection.

However, many Protestant church laity … directly select/vote to receive their ministers/leadership. Church Deacons [search committees] find their new pastor & the laity gets to vote yea/no. You must admit there is no scriptural support for this selection of Bishops/Priests by the laity.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Primacy means he GOT the KEYS … of leadership ! He was ‘numero uno’ among the 12 … and Scripture clearly teaches the others acknowledged Peter as selected and annointed by Christ for his leadership role. Paul deferred to Peter … so he tells us in his Epistles. Paul assisted Peter in Rome, but was mainly in prision during his tenure there. Peter is the ROCK … his name changed to refect his position. It wasn’t changed to Lucifer !!! Paul’s name was changed too, … but, not to ROCK.

Certainly Catholics acknowledge Peter and all Popes that followed Peter… needed ordination/selection by the Church leadership [Bishops]. But, Christ guides his Church, his Bishops, and the laity. Just as the first 12, became 11 when Judas became an apostate, were allowed to chose their Apostolic 12th man, … eversince, the Church leadership of Bishops have been empowered to select/annoint their own replacements. The laity has no ‘official’ role in Papal selection.

However, many Protestant church laity … directly select/vote to receive their ministers/leadership. Church Deacons [search committees] find their new pastor & the laity gets to vote yea/no. You must admit there is no scriptural support for this selection of Bishops/Priests by the laity.

On the contrary, that is the only Scriptural support. Maybe this is the problem; you do not understand Scripture.

Perhaps you might look at 1 Timothy 3, Titus 1, 1 Tim 5 & 2 timothy to understand why the necessity of congregation; especially the smaller ones, which are numerous to use the committees, usually made of the more mature Christians because they must be able to discern the nature and character of a pastor; these are in the Pastoral Epistles; note what is never mentioned as you read in relation to your own understanding of church selection. To exult Peter above the rest of the Apostles is contrary to the nature of God you claim to serve. Perhaps this is why we have the opposite way of thinking. Those you personally exult; I find offensive to God’s Word, which in turn offends God in my opinion.

Did you know that the laity of the Catholic church use to be the ones that selected the pope? That changed over time, which is why there are so many saints that were mere myths based on popularity and I the 1950’s or 60’s, the church had to purge many of these saints and that some that were deemed a myth; the church is still making money from? Did you know that? These are the aspects of history that seem to get overlooked.

I have been here a short time and have learned a lot and have had some very thought provoking questions come up, which i am very blessed to think about because these things often bring one even closer to God. I am thankful for this CAF; it is a very good and well thought out site and has obviously been a lot of peoples time, energy and money invested in strengthening the Catholic faith, and at the same time allowing a difference of opinion on the meaning of Scripture and how it effects us as people made in the image of God. So though our differences are great; thanks to places like CAF we are blessed to be able to speak about those differences and hopefully learn, even from the least of us.

Thank you to all of you that have provided, time, energy and money. I guess if i can hang in here long enough; god might put it on my heart to give financial support; we will see how He leads.

God bless each of you this day and this night…amen

 

[CentralFLJames]

To exult Peter above the rest of the Apostles is contrary to the nature of God you claim to serve. Perhaps this is why we have the opposite way of thinking. Those you personally exult; I find offensive to God’s Word, which in turn offends God in my opinion.

What a strange statement from a person who holds himself up as having been endowed with the proper context of scripture teaching to not actually remember scripture that contradicts one’s own claimed sensibilities. Forgive me for so saying but I don’t know any Christians faiths who make claim that Alzheimer’s is a gift of the Holy Spirit…

Do you have no recollection that Jesus Himself exalted individual men over others as did St. Elizabeth?

*Matthew 11:11 "Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Luke 1:42 And she cried out with a loud voice and said, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!*

I guess we had to be there to see the body-language to see how this was offensive to God’s Word?

Did you know that the laity of the Catholic church use to be the ones that selected the pope? That changed over time, which is why there are so many saints that were mere myths based on popularity and I the 1950’s or 60’s, the church had to purge many of these saints and that some that were deemed a myth; the church is still making money from? Did you know that? These are the aspects of history that seem to get overlooked.

Not accurate. There were some very beloved citizens of communities that were put forward by popular demand for pope. What we now call the Cardinals (senior bishops appointed by the reigning pope) took that popular support to heart and elected a few after they saw such strong popular sentiments. The authority to appoint the pope lays entirely within the corpus of the bishops and no lay person or even a priest can elect a pope. He must be appointed by his fellow bishops who may or may not take the people’s love and popularity into consideration depending on who they feel is the overall best “bishop of bishops” (aka “servant of the servants of God”). Being appointed pope is not a thing that is taken lightly and is a very heavy responsibility.

The saints were not purged - others were rotated into the liturgy since we have thousands.
And the church make no or very little money on saints. Mostly the secular religious gift-stores sell mementos and cards and religious articles for a few dollars - nothing big. There is more money made by the simony of the Protestant TV evangelicals and the Protestant rapture book writers than the church ever made in minor sales of small devotional prayer booklets etc. and that money us charity. I bet you didn’t know that the Catholic Church is the LARGEST charitable organization in the entire world - giving more than even the USA does in aid.

God bless each of you this day and this night…amen

Pax.

James

 

[Michael_Francis]

Get back on*** topic****** and stay there (The Rapture) or this thread will be locked.***

***Do not stray from that topic. ***

As per the Forum Rules we allow only one topic per thread.