The Real reason why one cannot be saved by faith alone.

[empther]

Throughout the Gospels Jesus is telling us to do something.

I could give a hundred verses quoting Jesus as telling us to do something. But why bother? Just pick up the Gospels and start reading anywhere. You’ll find Jesus telling us to do something.
( Hint: Go straight to the Sermon on the Mount, Matthew chap 5, and you’ll find Jesus telling us to do many things. )

That settles the question.

 

[RBushlow]

BouleTheou:

rbushlow -

RBushlow:

Of course you must have faith, but that is not all that scripture says. Jesus also says that you will be judged according to what you have done.

Faith apart from works = faith alone.

Well, faith without works is dead, as James says:
James 2:30, 24 But wilt thou know, o vain man that faith without works is dead? Ye see then how that by works man is justified, and not by faith alone.
Or Jesus himself:
Matt 5:20 . . . unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Or Paul:
Rom 2:6 God will give to each according to what he has done. To those who by persistance in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, He will give eternal life.

But it’s not just about Faith and works. There is much more than involved. As a bondservant of Jesus Christ, I am bound to obey ALL that He said. A good and faithful servant must obey all that his master commands.

Yours in Christ.

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

BouleTheou:

rbushlow -

Faith apart from works = faith alone.

BouleTheou

This is works of the Mosaic law which aren’t the works that justify along with faith (James 2:24). Faith apart from works of the law is just that, faith apart from works of the law. It’s not faith alone, as we see in James 2:24). Context is important.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[beng]

BouleTheou:

Just some class

I don’t care about class. Just the fact

 

[beng]

BouleTheou:

rbushlow -

Faith apart from works = faith alone.

BouleTheou

No it’s not.

The only time the Holy Spirit inspired the writers of the Holy Scripture to put together “faith” with the word “alone” is in James 2:24.

 

[exrc]

beng:

No it’s not.

The only time the Holy Spirit inspired the writers of the Holy Scripture to put together “faith” with the word “alone” is in James 2:24.

                   BENG,the word **alone** does not have to be there to mean faith alone. The purpose of this thread is to prove that salvation is by faith alone or it is faith+ works. Not if you can find them written together. You're right, it is not in there. That does not mean you get to take your bat and ball and go home. Let me explain.

  Basically, there are two ways in which man can be saved.

1. WORKS: Obeying the law perfectly from birth to death, which means never once sinning, just like Jesus did. Then God would be obligated to give you your salvation based on your merit which is not grace, We both know I hope, that this is not possible. Works are anything we can do including all the “sacraments”, loving your neighbor, or anything else you can possibly think of with your imagination.
   

                                    OR

2. FAITH: Putting all your trust in what Jesus did FOR you. By sinning just once you have disqualified yourself from option 1, thats me and you my friend. You see Jesus’ perfect life earned him the right to die on the cross in YOUR place. His one death gave him the right to substitute his death for your life. So by an unmerited gift grace he gave you eternal life. You and I didn’t deserve it then and we don’t deserve it now. Once you cross the line and sin you can never go back to works for justification. Saving faith is not something that necessarily has to be demonstrated. God can see your faith without seeing any works. Works are merely an expression of faith unseen. This is demonstrated in the picture of the thief on the cross next to Jesus. He had no works but God saw his saving faith because he believed who Jesus said he was. So therefore he was instantly justified.
   

             It is faith **or** works my friend ,not both
   
                 In love ex-catholic Dan!

 

[beng]

exrc:

BENG,the word alone does not have to be there to mean faith alone.

Why not? Paul used the word “faith” many time. Paul also used the word “alone” many times. Paul understand the meaning of both.

Not once did he or the Holy Spirit inspired him to write “faith Alone”. It was only the father of lies who s(name removed by moderator)ired Luther to add the word “alone” on Rom 3:28.

The purpose of this thread is to prove that salvation is by faith alone or it is faith+ works. Not if you can find them written together. You’re right, it is not in there. That does not mean you get to take your bat and ball and go home.

Well, yes it does. And I though Protestant are the Sola Scripturist (you are a protestant aren’t you?)

Let me explain.

  Basically, there are two ways in which man can be saved.

1. WORKS: Obeying the law perfectly from birth to death, which means never once sinning, just like Jesus did. Then God would be obligated to give you your salvation based on your merit which is not grace, We both know I hope, that this is not possible. Works are anything we can do including all the “sacraments”, loving your neighbor, or anything else you can possibly think of with your imagination.
   

                                    OR

No, this is wrong.

YOU CAN NEVER OBLIGATE GOD!

No way, no can do. This is the whole theme which Paul is preaching and which is the attitude of ancient Jews (during Jesus times).

IF you had done all the laws while NOT broken a single one, all you have done is only doing what you’re supposed to do. It’s not enough for your salvation.

The only way is for a GOD and Man to pay the debt.

1. FAITH: Putting all your trust in what Jesus did FOR you. By sinning just once you have disqualified yourself from option 1, thats me and you my friend.

Even if you do not sin, you can not earn your salvation by merely obligating God.

You see Jesus’ perfect life earned him the right to die on the cross in YOUR place.His one death gave him the right to substitute his death for your life.

Protestant theology of substutionary atonement. Catholic have a different view on this.

For a start, my punishment is damnation, not the cross. Thus THE ONLY WAY Jesus is going to TOTALLY REPLACE ME is that hwne Jesus suffer the pain of damnation, which is impossible.

So by an unmerited

gift grace he gave you eternal life.
This is about right.

You and I didn’t deserve it then and we don’t deserve it now.

About right.

Once you cross the line and sin you can never go back to works for justification.

Who said that works is the remedy when one fall into sin? To get back the justification one must repent through the sacrament of penance or perfect contrition.

Saving faith is not something that necessarily has to be demonstrated.

That is why I don’t get that Protestant must demonstrate their faith thought works.

God can see your faith without seeing any works. Works are merely an expression of faith unseen. This is demonstrated in the picture of the thief on the cross next to Jesus. He had no works but God saw his saving faith because he believed who Jesus said he was. So therefore he was instantly justified.

You are contradicting yourselves.

First I though you got it right by saying that faith is not demonstrable but then you said that works is a sign of faith unseen.

Who is this sign for? God? God knows what’s in your heart, so why He needs the sign?

Sign for others? For what? We see how supposedly pious Protestant fell from glory (Jimmy Swaggart, Bakers couple and now Paul Crouch). Not a very good sign is it?

Works under grace with faith to God is appeasing to God and add to justification because justification is a process.

Continue below.

 

[beng]

It is faith or works my friend ,not both

                  In love ex-catholic Dan!

It’s faith and works.

And let me tell you, it is Protestant who preach the gospel of salvation by work by NOT baptizing infant and preach that people must confess about Jesus as saviour before he can be justified.

Faith in Protestant theology IS WORK.

For Catholics BOTH faith and work are under grace.

And btw, congratulation for leaving the only ark of salvation.

beng, not dumb enough to be Protestant ever.

 

[beng]

By the way

Romans 2:13
For not the hearers of the law are just before God:* but the doers of the law shall be justified.***

James 2:21-22
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou that faith did cooperate with his works and by works faith was made perfect?

Rev 20:11-13
11And I saw a great white throne and one sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and heaven fled away: and there was no place found for them 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing in the presence of the throne. And the books were opened: and another book was opened, which was the book of life. And the dead were judged by those things which were written in the books, according to their works.13And the sea gave up the dead that were in it: and death and hell gave up their dead that were in them. And they were judged, every one according to their works.

 

[exrc]

beng:

No, this is wrong.

YOU CAN NEVER OBLIGATE GOD!

No way, no can do. This is the whole theme which Paul is preaching and which is the attitude of ancient Jews (during Jesus times).

IF you had done all the laws while NOT broken a single one, all you have done is only doing what you’re supposed to do. It’s not enough for your salvation.

The only way is for a GOD and Man to pay the debt.
**His quote ^ **

---

My quote

Jesus the son of man obligated God the father to forgive us based on his ability to fulfill all the law. He died in our place because he earned that right. If Jesus would have sinned just once he would have obligated God to send him to hell with us, to satisfy his justice. Jesus is a picture of the substitutionary death of the lambs that would die on the altars of the jewish temple. Their death substituted for the death of the guilty party. The law said they should die for their sin but grace said let the lamb die in your place. Substitutionary atonement is not catholic you are right .However, it is Gods way not protestants way. How unfortunate that you created anew and different way for atonement.

In love ex-catholic Dan!

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

exrc:

Basically, there are two ways in which man can be saved.

1. WORKS: Obeying the law perfectly from birth to death, which means never once sinning, just like Jesus did.
   OR
2. FAITH: Putting all your trust in what Jesus did FOR you. By sinning just once you have disqualified yourself from option 1, It is faith or works my friend ,not both

Hi Dan!

You seem to have quite a misunderstanding as to what the Catholic means by “works” that justify along with faith. The works that justify along with faith are NOT works of the Mosaic law as you have said in your post. There is not a list of do’s that must be performed in order to be justified. This is a misunderstanding.

The works that justify along with faith is the Christian behavior that brings our faith alive, because of course without it our faith is dead (James 2:17, 26). Paul refers to it as “faith working in love (Gal 5:6)” and “the obedience of faith (Romans 1:5, 16:26)”.

Paul had the perfect opportunity to teach faith alone, in no uncertain terms, in his letter to the Galatians. He came right out and said “The only thing that counts is faith”…right? No. Paul’s carefully chosen, God-breathed words said “The only thing that counts is faith working in love (5:6)”. Why is the ONLY thing that counts faith working in love? Because "if I have all faith so as to move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing (1 Cor 13:2). If you have faith alone but do not have love you are not saved or justified, as you are claiming. You are nothing. Paul also tells us that love is greater than faith(1 Cor 13:13). If faith alone is enough how can there possibley be anything greater than faith? Yet God’s word tells us that there is something greater than faith, and that is love.

All throughout the NT we see that love is an ACTION. It’s not a warm fuzzy feeling but an ACTION. This is what “faith working in love” is. It’s actively living one’s faith. One’s life must reflect one’s faith, we are to LIVE by faith (Heb 10:38), not merely have faith. Now some claim that living one’s faith is a by-product of having faith, that if one has faith one will just naturally behave in a Christ-like manner. This would mean that Christians no longer have free will, that Christ-like behavior is not a choice but merely a by-product of one’s faith. There is nothing in scripture to support such an idea and everything in experience to refute it. Just spend a little time on message boards such as this. Meaner, nastier, more un-Christ-like behavior is hard to find, often times from the very people who claim that their Christian behavior is a by-product of their faith. Remember that song “Things That Make You Go ‘Hmmm’?” This is definitely a thing that makes me go “hmmmm?”

Another common misunderstanding that I think you may hold is that Catholics believe that one is saved BY what they do. This is not true. Our initial justification is pure gift. There is nothing in this world that we can do to merit it. This is made so beautifully obvious in infant baptism. However, once we are made to be “in Christ” (Romans 6:3-4) we must remain there (1 John 2:24-25,28; 1 John 4:15), we must persevere and endure to the end (Matt 10:22, Mark 13:13). Our initial justification is just the beginning, not the end. “If we love one another, God remains in us (1 John 4:12)”. And if we don’t love one another? God will not remain in us.

This “love” that we must display in order to remain in Christ is the “works” that the Catholic speaks of. Very different from the works of the law that you are supposing we mean.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[beng]

exrc:

Jesus the son of man obligated God the father to forgive us based on his ability to fulfill all the law. He died in our place because he earned that right. If Jesus would have sinned just once he would have obligated God to send him to hell with us, to satisfy his justice. Jesus is a picture of the substitutionary death of the lambs that would die on the altars of the jewish temple. Their death substituted for the death of the guilty party. The law said they should die for their sin but grace said let the lamb die in your place. Substitutionary atonement is not catholic you are right .However, it is Gods way not protestants way. How unfortunate that you created anew and different way for atonement.

In love ex-catholic Dan!

Human punishment is total damnation forever.

Was Jesus totally damned forever?

Dominus Vobiscum, not dumb enough to be Protestant, beng

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

exrc:

Substitutionary atonement is not catholic you are right .However, it is Gods way not protestants way. How unfortunate that you created anew and different way for atonement.

In love ex-catholic Dan!

Hi Dan!

I understand that you believe this, but why? What objective source do you have, outside of yourself and your own personal understanding of scripture, that tells you that your way IS God’s way and not a new and different way that not intended by God? Certainly, merely believing that it’s God way doesn’t make it God’s way. After all, we believe that our understanding is God’s way yet you tell us it’s not. How can you be infallibley certain that your understanding is God’s way?

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[exrc]

Catholic4aReasn:

Hi Dan!

I understand that you believe this, but why? What objective source do you have, outside of yourself and your own personal understanding of scripture, that tells you that your way IS God’s way and not a new and different way that not intended by God? Certainly, merely believing that it’s God way doesn’t make it God’s way. After all, we believe that our understanding is God’s way yet you tell us it’s not. How can you be infallibley certain that your understanding is God’s way?

In Christ,
Nanc

y

Nancy, are you reading my posts with both eyes squinted tightly?

Where does it say that I wrote the old testament?

God created the system of animal sacrifices not Dan.

Did not the animal die in place of the sinful jew?

Did God do this because he enjoys seeing animals butchered, or was it to reveal the sacrifice of his son?

Am I not exercising common sense by assuming that the O.T. has everything to do with the new testament ?

In bewilderment Dan!

 

[Catholic4aReasn]

Originally Posted by Catholic4aReasn
*Hi Dan!

I understand that you believe this, but why? What objective source do you have, outside of yourself and your own personal understanding of scripture, that tells you that your way IS God’s way and not a new and different way that not intended by God? Certainly, merely believing that it’s God way doesn’t make it God’s way. After all, we believe that our understanding is God’s way yet you tell us it’s not. How can you be infallibley certain that your understanding is God’s way? *

exrc:

Nancy, are you reading my posts with both eyes squinted tightly?

Where does it say that I wrote the old testament?

God created the system of animal sacrifices not Dan.

Did not the animal die in place of the sinful jew?

Did God do this because he enjoys seeing animals butchered, or was it to reveal the sacrifice of his son?

Am I not exercising common sense by assuming that the O.T. has everything to do with the new testament ?

In bewilderment Dan!

None of this answers my question. 'My objective source, outside of myself and my personal understanding of scripture is_______________" would have done it once you filled in the blank though.

In Christ,
Nancy

 

[exrc]

Catholic4aReasn:

Originally Posted by Catholic4aReasn

None of this answers my question. 'My objective source, outside of myself and my personal understanding of scripture is_______________" would have done it once you filled in the blank though.

In Christ,
Nancy

            Nancy, I no more have to answer that question to you, than you to me. I don't exist because I believe that I do, I exist because it is a fact.

Scripture speaks for itself.

Can you deny that the old testament exists?

If you don’t then lets discuss it.

Lets start off with, did God institute animal sacrifices?

In love ex-catholic4aReason Dan!

 

[mayra_hart]

matt. 25:31-46- jesus teaching on the separation of the sheep from the goats is based on the works that we re done during their lives,not just on their acceptance of christ the savior. in fact, this teaching even demonstrated that those who are ultimately saved do not necessarily have to know christ. rom .2:6-10,13- god will judge every man according to his works. salvation depends on how we cooperate with god’s grace.

 

[Pax]

BouleTheou:

rbushlow -

Faith apart from works = faith alone.

BouleTheou

Neither you or anyone else has ever proved this equation. It is not in scripture. Moreover, it is directly and clearly refuted by the apostle James.

 

[Pax]

exrc:

BENG,the word alone

              It is faith **or** works my friend ,not both

                  In love ex-catholic Dan!

This last statement utterly flies in the face of James 2:24 where we are told, “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

I have personally heard numerous attempts by sincere protestants to get around this verse and none of them succeed. If you care to give it your best exegesis you are welcome to do so. Based on your understandings of Paul it would appear that scripture contradicts scripture. This cannot be so. Therefore, your quoted statement above must be false. Please explain James and his teaching on faith and works. I prefer the words of scripture and I will stick with the apostles, including James, and the Catholic Church over your understanding of Paul somehow trumping James. This kind of contradiction simply isn’t possible.

 

[beng]

Why is the ex-Catholic can not answer why Jesus did not suffer damnation forever if He’s suppose to take our place?

Did he forget to venture this problem when he became ex-Catholic? Oh no!

Et Cum Spiritu Tuo, Not dumb enough to believe man made Protestantism, beng.