The Real reason why one cannot be saved by faith alone.

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Peace be with you!
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Catholic4aReasn:
But none of these say “faith alone” which is what was asked for.
Someone asked his friend:
A: Where is the sun?
B, showing him the sun: here it is!
A: But this is not the sun! I am asking you where is the sun.



In Love,
Yaqubos†
 
Peace!
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Noruk:
However the reason none of the Catholics on this thread have answered your question on LIFE is that we already come from a point of view that says “we have this LIFE of God”. You see we’ve all been Baptised.
If you think you have Life eternal because you are baptized, then Hitler has also to think that…

But whatever… Let us not change our topic. So if you think you already have Life eternal so you don’t need to do good deeds IN ORDER THAT YOU MAY earn that Life, but BECAUSE YOU ALREADY HAVE that Life.

In Love,
Yaqubos†
 
Peace be with you!
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empther:
Throughout the Gospels Jesus is telling us to do something.

I could give a hundred verses quoting Jesus as telling us to do something. But why bother? Just pick up the Gospels and start reading anywhere. You’ll find Jesus telling us to do something.
( Hint: Go straight to the Sermon on the Mount, Matthew chap 5, and you’ll find Jesus telling us to do many things. )

That settles the question.
Jesus is not telling you to do something when you are still dead! He is telling you to do something AFTER having His Life in you. So Jesus is not telling you to do something in order to earn Life eternal, but BECAUSE YOU ALREADY HAVE Life eternal by BELIVING in Him.

But those who don’t believe in Him, have not Life eternal, so they cannot do His Will.

In Love,
Yaqubos†
 
Peace!
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Catholic4aReasn:
This is works of the Mosaic law which aren’t the works that justify along with faith (James 2:24). Faith apart from works of the law is just that, faith apart from works of the law. It’s not faith alone, as we see in James 2:24). Context is important.

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
What are the works that justify along with faith? Are they something more than the following MOSAIC Law:

“you shall love your neighbor as yourself” ( Leviticus 19:18 )

N.B.: Leviticus is a Book of LAW.

In Love,
Yaqubos†
 
Peace!
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beng:
By the way

Romans 2:13
For not the hearers of the law are just before God:* but the doers of the law shall be justified.***
Do you believe that you will be justified by the works of the Law?
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beng:
Rev 20:11-13

11And I saw a great white throne and one sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and heaven fled away: and there was no place found for them 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing in the presence of the throne. And the books were opened: and another book was opened, which was the book of life. And the dead were judged by those things which were written in the books, according to their works.13And the sea gave up the dead that were in it: and death and hell gave up their dead that were in them. And they were judged, every one according to their works.
Oh, a very beautiful quote! So you will be judged according to your works and what will happen? Answer:

“Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.” ( Revelation 20:14-15 )

So, as you see, if you just quoted these two last verses with what you quoted, you would know that those who are yet in DEATH, they will be thrown with death into the lake of fire. But those who have Life, their names are in the book of Life!

In Love,
Yaqubos†
 
Peace be with you!
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beng:
Human punishment is total damnation forever.

Was Jesus totally damned forever?

Dominus Vobiscum, not dumb enough to be Protestant, beng
Do you believe that Jesus is ETERNAL God and that He REALY DIED?

What does it mean that GOD who NEVER DIES really DIED?

In Love,
Yaqubos†
 
Peace be with you!
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Catholic4aReasn:
None of this answers my question. 'My objective source, outside of myself and my personal understanding of scripture is_______________" would have done it once you filled in the blank though.

In Christ,
Nancy 🙂
This question can be asked to every Christian. And the clear answer is:
SCRIPTURE EXPLAINS SCRIPTURE.

When your father tells you something, you don’t go and ask your brother what he meant…

In Love,
Yaqubos†
 
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YAQUBOS:
Peace be with you!

Someone asked his friend:
A: Where is the sun?
B, showing him the sun: here it is!
A: But this is not the sun! I am asking you where is the sun.



In Love,
Yaqubos†
Yaqubos,

This post applies to you not others. It is ironic that you put it up right after mine which quotes James. If you cannot see the direct refutation of your position by the apostle James, then you are the one that fails to see the obvious truth before you.
 
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YAQUBOS:
Peace be with you!

This question can be asked to every Christian. And the clear answer is:
SCRIPTURE EXPLAINS SCRIPTURE.

When your father tells you something, you don’t go and ask your brother what he meant…

In Love,
Yaqubos†
Code:
            May the lord bless you in abundance, I thank him for you with all my heart my dear brother! Keep up the good work buddy! Let Gods truth set them free of this new bondage they have created for themselves.
In love ex-catholic Dan!
 
Here are some comments on Romans 4 and James 2 that should help you:

commenting on Romans 4:10-11, “How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,”

Paul, knowing that his opponents will still want to say that in some way Abraham’s works formed at least a part of his justification before God, rules that out in this verse. Abraham was justified by faith before he was circumcised. This will be a critical statement for my opponent to deal with, for if he says (as all Roman Catholics I have dialogued about this with have) that James chapter two is teaching that Abraham was ‘justified’ in exactly the same sense (when he offered Isaac) as Paul does here, we are faced with a diametric contradiction to Paul’s express teaching in this passage. When Paul offered Isaac in Genesis 22, that was years after he was circumcised. Paul leaves no room for doubt about when Abraham was justified before God, “not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised.” That is, in my opinion, the ultimate problem with the standard Roman Catholic interpretation of James 2:24. The standard Roman Catholic interpretation of James chapter two hands the victory to Paul’s enemies.

To preclude the most common Roman Catholic response I’ve heard to this point, I’ve included this little paragraph. Most Catholic apologists will argue that Abraham was actually justified before God in exactly the same way in both instances, i.e. when he believed the promise of Yahweh in Genesis 15:6 and also in Genesis 22 when he was about to offer up Isaac as a burnt offering. Were this the case, Paul simply could not have argued the way he does in Romans chapter 4. If Abraham were justified before God more than once, i.e. once before his circumcision and again after his circumcision, this would have been a rather devastating reason not to argue so vociferously in these words, “How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised.” If Paul’s enemies could simply have said, “Well Paul, it was both before and after,” his entire argument against works playing a role in justification, against circumcision playing a role in justification, that God justifies the ungodly, and that God justifies the one who believes by imputing righteousness to them apart from works would have no merit whatsoever. If Abraham was justified before God after he was circumcised, Paul seems to have been utterly unaware of it – and such would be impossible for here Paul is expositing the precious doctrine of justification in a book of inspired Scripture.

BouleTheou
 
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Catholic4aReasn:
Hi Dan!

You seem to have quite a misunderstanding as to what the Catholic means by “works” that justify along with faith. The works that justify along with faith are NOT works of the Mosaic law as you have said in your post. There is not a list of do’s that must be performed in order to be justified. This is a misunderstanding.

Nancy,

Loving your neighbor is a work of the Mosaic law as YAQUBOS has proven by Lev. 19:18. This can only be performed if you are truly a son of God and already have life. You are trying to be rewarded with something you already have. You do not have to work to keep something that is a gift. You didn’t deserve it before the second birth and you don’t deserve it after. He holds our salvation for us in his resurrection. If Jesus lives, we live .

Justification= second birth=salvation=eternal life

You are justified for Gods pleasure, not as tenative agreement to see if you can pass the test of being able to stay away from sin until you die. How sick would God be to dangle your salvation in front of you while saying “dance for me sinner”.

Sanctification is what he is doing from second birth until death, for the purpose of making you a useful vessel for his service. So that he can draw the unsaved unto himself, not make you worthy of justification.

No Nancy, I understand all to well catholicism and how deadly it is ,I’ve been there all too long . I don’t know if you’ve been an rc all your life but I have.

In love ex-catholic 4aReason Dan!
 
I think that the parable of the prodigal son illuminates this discussion quite a bit, and is a blueprint for our lives.

In the parable, there is a father (God/Jesus) with two sons. Both, by virtue of their sonship to their father, are destined to receive the Father’s inheritance (eternal life).

One son, however, chooses to separate himself from his father and squanders his inheritance, which was freely given him by his father. In doing so, he finds himself lost and in danger of death, and chooses to return to his father, repent (ask forgiveness). When his father sees him returning, the father comes to him, embraces him, hears his confession, and restores to him his inheritance (the ring signifies the right to inheritance). The other son is jealous because he has always done his father’s work, and complains, to which the father responds that everything the father has to give is that son’s (his perseverance will be rewarded). Yet, they must rejoice because the other son was dead, and now lives.

This is exactly the pattern of Christian life that we all lead. Once we are saved (baptized), we are made children of God, and are destined the inheritance that familial bond promises. However, we can turn from our Father through sin (which is the rejection of God), thereby taking that inheritance into our own hands where it will ultimately fail. We are then spiritually dead, just as the son was dead when separated from God, and no longer able to inherit eternal life. The only remedy is to return to God, seek repentance, and be restored to His Grace, at which point our inheritance of eternal life is also restored.

While the first son will again inherit eternal life, we all strive to be the second, who had never forsaken his inheritance through obedience to his Father. Though he was not sinless (he did not come in to celebrate out of jealousy), his sin was not sufficiently grave to lose (or take into his own hands) his inheritance. For his perseverance, the father indicated that not only his share of the inheritance would be his, but all the father has (a side point, but interesting).

So, can salvation be lost? According to this parable, YES. The first son is clearly one who had salvation, lost it, then regained it through repentance. Did he earn salvation? NO, it was a free gift given by his father. How does he keep his salvation? By not gravely rejecting the father who offers it. By perservering in faithful obedience, we hope to inherit all that God promises.

Peace,
javelin
 
Dear Protestant Friends:

In John 1:12, we read that for those who receive the Word, He gives them the power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. What I love about this verse is that it succinctly expresses that journey which our soul takes. You see, my belief alone in Christ is not what makes me a son of God, but it is what gives me the power to become a son of God. The Gospel writer echoes the truth of the Holy Catholic Church: salvation is a process. It is not determined at the moment I am baptized; it does not occur the moment I repent; it does not occur the minute I pray a sinner’s prayer, receiving Jesus in my heart. Instead, the moment of belief is what helps me “to become.”

A few chapters later, Our Lord speaks of light and darkness and about the actions and works we perform in our life. He says in John 3:20-21 that those who do evil hate the light and will not come to the light. But, those who live by the truth come to that light. What I love about this verse is that it too succinctly expresses that journey on which our soul takes. You see, my works alone in Christ are not what make me a son of God. Rather, it too, like belief, is a step in the process. Here also, the Church echoes the message of our Lord: salvation is a process.

Faith and works are inseparable in the life of the Christian and in this business of “becoming” a son or daughter of God. One is not more important than the other, and neither proposition is exclusive to the other. Rather, each one is a separate blade in the same pair of scissors, working together toward the same goal.

Many protestants criticize the sacramental nature of my Catholic faith. They accuse me of binding myself to the works of Rome so blindly that I ignore the simple salvific message of Christ: that all I need to do is believe and my salvation is complete. Of course, they say this to me without seeming to understand what the fullness of Christ’s message is. And, I often wonder what these same Protestants would say to the blind man whom Christ healed in John 9:6-7. Would they have stopped the blind man on the way to the pool and said, “Hey, you don’t need to do what Christ told you to do by washing in the pool. Ritual washing is a work of the Mosaic law! All you need to do is believe that you have received His miracle and you will be fine.” What advice would you give the blind man?

In Jesus and Mary

Fiat
 
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YAQUBOS:
Peace!

Do you believe that you will be justified by the works of the Law?
Do you not believe God breathed scripture?
Oh, a very beautiful quote! So you will be judged according to your works and what will happen? Answer:

“Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.” ( Revelation 20:14-15 )

So, as you see, if you just quoted these two last verses with what you quoted, you would know that those who are yet in DEATH, they will be thrown with death into the lake of fire. But those who have Life, their names are in the book of Life!

In Love,
Yaqubos†
Wait, are you saying that people who is judged according to their works will be thrown into the hades?

Are you kidding?

So the one on the book of life is not judged according to their works?

really?

Dear lord.
 
Faith is a necessary but not sufficient condition for salvation. What that means is that there are other conditions that must also be fulfilled for salvation to take place. A simple mistake to make by simply reading a verse from the Bible and treating it as a stand alone statement.
 
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BouleTheou:
Here are some comments on Romans 4 and James 2 that should help you:

commenting on Romans 4:10-11, “How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,”

Paul, knowing that his opponents will still want to say that in some way Abraham’s works formed at least a part of his justification before God, rules that out in this verse. Abraham was justified by faith before he was circumcised. This will be a critical statement for my opponent to deal with, for if he says (as all Roman Catholics I have dialogued about this with have) that James chapter two is teaching that Abraham was ‘justified’ in exactly the same sense (when he offered Isaac) as Paul does here, we are faced with a diametric contradiction to Paul’s express teaching in this passage. When Paul offered Isaac in Genesis 22, that was years after he was circumcised. Paul leaves no room for doubt about when Abraham was justified before God, “not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised.” That is, in my opinion, the ultimate problem with the standard Roman Catholic interpretation of James 2:24. The standard Roman Catholic interpretation of James chapter two hands the victory to Paul’s enemies.

To preclude the most common Roman Catholic response I’ve heard to this point, I’ve included this little paragraph. Most Catholic apologists will argue that Abraham was actually justified before God in exactly the same way in both instances, i.e. when he believed the promise of Yahweh in Genesis 15:6 and also in Genesis 22 when he was about to offer up Isaac as a burnt offering. Were this the case, Paul simply could not have argued the way he does in Romans chapter 4. If Abraham were justified before God more than once, i.e. once before his circumcision and again after his circumcision, this would have been a rather devastating reason not to argue so vociferously in these words, “How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised.” If Paul’s enemies could simply have said, “Well Paul, it was both before and after,” his entire argument against works playing a role in justification, against circumcision playing a role in justification, that God justifies the ungodly, and that God justifies the one who believes by imputing righteousness to them apart from works would have no merit whatsoever. If Abraham was justified before God after he was circumcised, Paul seems to have been utterly unaware of it – and such would be impossible for here Paul is expositing the precious doctrine of justification in a book of inspired Scripture.

BouleTheou
Dude, why are you using an argument that has been refuted?

This is the original Thread where Patrick (a Protestant) made the argument on Envoy (Catholic Magazine published by Patrick Madrid)

It’s such a shame that you rpovide an already rebutted argument.
 
exrc,

I’m really curious about something that has never made sense to me concerning the general protestant position. Maybe you can help.

How do you relly know when/if you have been justified (born again), and thus unchangably destined for eternal life? If justification is a one-time, irreversible juridical act, then shouldn’t people know for certain when such a life-changing event has taken place?

I have been baptised, and prayed the sinner’s prayer with absolutely conscious sincerity. So is that it? Am I in?

javelin
 
Protestant friends,

Another thought. If belief and faith are necessary for justification, and must preclude baptism, and there is no salvation without justification through Christ, then do children younger than the age of reason who cannot have faith destined for hell if they die? Someone has claimed that children cannot be baptised because they are too young to have faith. Does that mean they go to hell? After all, no faith=no justification=no eternal life, right?

curious,
javelin

P.S. Didn’t Jesus say something about how our faith should be like that of a child? That certainly seems to imply that children can have faith, doesn’t it?
 
The real reason why one cannot be saved by faith alone…

because if this is the case, we will all be saved… and there just isnt enough room for all of us.
The question is CAN someone be saved by faith alone? NOT normally as declared by Jesus’s revelation! TRENT answers that for us. WE are now binded by the Council of TRENTs verdict that faith alone will not save us. Teaching about faith alone actually condemms us, heck even reading about it condems us…bye!!! better get out of this topic. quickly!:ehh:
 
Reading this thread makes me very grateful that we (Catholics) have Scripture, Tradition and the Magisterium to help iron out these issues. It’s not wonder to me that there are 30k denominations in the US.

Quite honestly, for me, this is an easy one. If one has been saved by faith alone and becomes a serial murderer and dies in a police shootout, people who think he/she goes directly to heaven have to really re-think their position.

Of course, the corollary to this thread is the OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) group giving the same result to our above mentioned social misfit. And believe me I have had conversations with people who actually believe this person is STILL saved.
 
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