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Catholic4aReasn
Guest
They don’t. The OSAS will tell you that he was never really saved to begin with.
In Christ,
Nancy
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In Christ,
Nancy
C
Catholic4aReasn
Guest
Ho Yaqubost!
The “thank God I’m not like them” attitude is the attitude of the Pharisees, according to scripture. Be careful.
Where does free will fit into the idea that anyone who has life will just naturally do good? Your view seems to make Christian behavior involuntar
I once witnessed a Christian who believes the very thing you tell another Christian who didn’t always feel like doing the right thing that there was obviously something wrong with his faith. That’s dangerous ground to walk on.
In Christ,
Nancy
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Catholic4aReasn
Guest
Hi Yaqubost!
I agree with this, but the fact remains that the truths that different Christians gleen from reading the bible conflict and contradict one another. Is it enough to read the bible and come up with ANY truth or are we after THE truth?
How do you believe that a Christian can know that the truth he sees in the bible is THE truth in light of the fact that all Christians believe they have THE truth even though one persons truth conflicts with and contradicts another’s truth. Clearly then, these Christians merely have A truth since they can’t both have THE truth.
Because of this we can know, without a doubt, that simply believing that one knows THE truth doesn’t necessarily mean that he really does. How then, do you believe one can know, without a doubt, that he does have THE truth if simply believing that he does is no guarentee?
In Christ,
Nancy
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Catholic4aReasn
Guest
Hi Yaqubost!
I’m interested in your interpretation of scripture, but help me understand how I can be sure that it’s correct. Thanks!
In Christ,
Nancy
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Catholic4aReasn
Guest
Hi Yaqubost!
How can you be certain that you’re understanding this passage correctly. There would be other non-Catholic Christians who disagree with your understanding yet just as certain that theirs is correct. What assurance do you have that you’re not mistaken? Thanks!
In Christ,
Nancy
B
beng
Guest
Why not?
Romans 3:12
For not the hearers of the law are just before God: but the doers of the law shall be justified.
B
beng
Guest
I was talking about “substitutionary atonement”. Not just “atonement”
Do you know the difference and why “substitutionary atonement” is wrong?
B
beng
Guest
Do you believe that we, meaning ALL OF US, will be judge according to our works?
Rev 20:11-13
11And I saw a great white throne and one sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and heaven fled away: and there was no place found for them 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing in the presence of the throne. And the books were opened: and another book was opened, which was the book of life. And the dead were judged by those things which were written in the books, according to their works.13And the sea gave up the dead that were in it: and death and hell gave up their dead that were in them. And they were judged, every one according to their works.
E
exrc
Guest
Nancy,this is an Arminian view which some evangelicals hold. The person in question perhaps wasn’t saved to begin with, as we see in 1John 2:19. If he was not saved to begin with then what is he to recommit to. Perhaps he was saved and fell into sin. Then he needs to repent or “recommit” to not regain his salvation but his communication or fellowship with God. Only that person knows for sure! If evangelicals think they have to recommit to regain salvation then they hold an Arminian view which is heresy. Jesus died once for every sin ever committed, and that will be committed. Your work is to believe it.
John 6:28+29 Then they asked him,“What must we do to do the works God requires”?
Jesus answered,“The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent”.
This is truly FAITH ALONE ,my friend!
In love ex-catholic 4aREason Dan!
B
beng
Guest
James 2:24
Dominus Vobiscum not dumb enough to be a Protestant, beng
E
exrc
Guest
beng, when Paul says THE LAW, catholics are quick to point out that he is refering to Mosaic law. Which they say is different than the law they are following for justification.
However, you have just admitted that in fact it is the Mosaic law that you follow to receive grace needed to earn justification.
Thank you for clearing that up for us!
You have by yourself debunked the entire rc religion, congratulations ! Applause is in order!
B
beng
Guest
Yes. I was indeed referring to Mosaic law.
Now the grace is grace, unmerited, unconditioned. It works before all things, either faith or works.
Grace alone is the correct formula and not faith alone, which is condemned by James 2:24.
Doing the law under grace shall justified you. Just as doing faith and work under grace. Without the grace you can not have faith or work.
So it’s nonsense to say that when you have faith, suddenly grace overflowed in you. That would be semi-pelagian, whikch was condemend.
You’re welcome.
By proclaiming faith alone, you have debunked the entire salvation process and make it that you’re able to obtain salvation by your own effort.
Clap clap clap clap.
Ad maiorem dei gloriam, not domb enough to be Protestant, beng.
J
javelin
Guest
Let’s start here, then. How do you know that the father’s two sons in the parable are representative of the whole human race? It is through baptism that we receive the Holy Spirit,
and it is that Spirit which gives us our new life in Christ, as a child of God. Yes, all of humanity are children of God in that we were all created by Him, but the New Testament is littered with passages linking true sonship to God with the new Christian life, made possible by the death and resurrection of Christ. These passages clearly show that not everyone is a “child of God” in the truest sense:
Show me in Scripture where it says that every member of the human race receives the Holy Spirit by default, or show me where someone receives new life in Christ without the Holy Spirit.
No, I don’t think there is a good argument for the sons representing the whole of the human race. The sons are already children of God, alive in His family, and in possession the father’s inheritance (“all that is mine is yours”).
The older son was not separated from the family. Lk 15:31 “And he said to him, ‘Son, you are always with me, and all that is mine is yours.’” Therefore, he was still a child of God and possessed eternal life.
continued…
J
javelin
Guest
A beautiful quote indeed! Amen!! However, God loves all men, and desires that all be saved, but we know that no everyone is saved. How can that be? Because while Christ’s love is always with us, we can still choose to reject it through sin. When we sin, it doesn’t mean that God doesn’t love us anymore! It is we who are not loving God and accepting His constant, freely-offered love, without which we cannot be saved (which is Pax’s point as well, I believe). Bringing it back to the parable, even though the son took his inheritance and squandered it in death, the father continued to love him, but it was the son’s action (work) of returning to the father in repentance that restored him to the family and new life.
Only one turned away form his father. The older son, though not understanding, did NOT reject his father’s love, nor forsake his family. His inheritance was never lost.
Going back to the text, the father actaully says “all that is mine **is **yours.” Not “will be” or “can be”, but “is”.
All people are chosen of God, but the Jews still have a special place, I think. In answer to the second question, YES, Christ is necessary for new life. Never contradicted that. I don’t see your point.
No, He cannot die again. I don’t see your point. If you are implying that once one is “saved”, they are ONE with Jesus, and then can never be lost, that makes sense from a few Biblical passages, but downright contradicts many others.
That is the problem.
The Catholic position is the only one that effectively and realistically handles the totality of the Biblical message, without self-contradiction or the need to selectively apply the Word of God.
My point in bringing up this parable is still the same:
Younger son has eternal life
Younger son chooses to squander it in reckless living (dies)
Younger son repents and returns to the father
Younger son is restored to life in the family (eternal life)
If the son had never repented and returned (works), he would not have inherited eternal life.
Peace,
javelin
R
RBushlow
Guest
**exrc:
It is faith or works my friend ,not both
In love ex-catholic Dan!
Sorry Dan, that’s not what Scripture says. Faith AND works (In James it says “Faith without works is dead” and that we are “Faith Alone cannot save you”) AND love (If I have Faith so as to move mountains and have not love. . .I am nothing). If we really want to be servents of Jesus Christ, we must do all that he says.
Yours in Christ.
It is faith or works my friend ,not both
In love ex-catholic Dan!
Sorry Dan, that’s not what Scripture says. Faith AND works (In James it says “Faith without works is dead” and that we are “Faith Alone cannot save you”) AND love (If I have Faith so as to move mountains and have not love. . .I am nothing). If we really want to be servents of Jesus Christ, we must do all that he says.
Yours in Christ.
C
Catholic4aReasn
Guest
Who’s to say what’s heresy and what’s not among our Protestant brothers and sisters ? Since they’re all equally guided by the holy Spirit to a correct interpretation of scripture (a correct interpretation being whatever one sincerely believes it is) then who’s to say?
I just noticed your tag line. Where can I find the posts in which you explain why you left the Church? I’m interested to read your story. Thanks!
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beng
Guest
Nah, you’d rather heard the story of my tag line. “not dumb enough to be Protestant”I just noticed your tag line. Where can I find the posts in which you explain why you left the Church? I’m interested to read your story. Thanks!
E
exrc
Guest
beng,do you realize the depth of what you said ?
Paul said you HAVE BEEN (past tense) saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.
not as a result of WORKS Eph 2:8
You’ve just admitted that these were the WORKS of the Mosaic law, that you earned your justification by.
So you are at odds with Paul!
He says you aren’t and you say you are.
Who is correct beng?
Therefore, FAITH + no works= FAITH ALONE:banghead:
In love ex-catholic Dan!
J
javelin
Guest
Protestant friends,
We are not saved by faith alone.
We are not saved by works alone.
We are saved by grace, which is received through faith working in love.
When Paul says we are not saved by our works, he is specifically addressing a concern of the community at the time, which was, basically, “do we still need to follow the Jewish law in order to be saved?” How does Paul answer? He says “No, you don’t need to follow Jewish law, or be a Jew, to be saved.” Good news for many of us!
But the important question is WHY? Why don’t we need to follow the Jewish Law? Did not God give those very laws? Is God simply changing His mind about what things are good and holy? Why was the mosaic law binding in the first place? And why did Jesus say that He did not come to abolish the law, but to complete it? What did He mean? And why would He tell his disciples specifically that they must obey the scribes and the Pharisees (Matt 23:2), even when He knew they would have Him tortured and hung on a tree to die?
The answer lies in the Covenant. With Christ’s death and resurrection, a new Covenant was forged. The mosaic law, which was binding because of the Mosaic Covenant, was no longer binding because that covenant was replaced by the Covenant in Christ’s blood. Thus, after the institution of the new covenant, the disciples (as we see in Acts) were no longer bound to obey the Jewish leaders – those leaders were replaced by the Apostles and their successors (the bishops of the Church). Now the new covenant governs God’s people, and it is a perfect covenant that will last through eternity because it was established by Christ himself.
Here’s the important part. The new covenant obviated the need to follow the old jewish laws. However, the new covenant has its own laws that must be obeyed! Why do you think Jesus gave a “new commandment”? You must have faith! You must Love! You must have hope in Christ! You must obey your God, as Jesus teaches over and over again (just look at Matthew–anywhere–because it is full of exhortations to OBEY, under penalty of being consigned to the place where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth!). All of these make up our new covenant with God, forged in the blood of His own Son, Jesus Christ!
So, did Jesus save (past tense) us? YES! By dying on the cross and rising from the dead, He instituted the new covenant, apart from which we cannot be saved. But Christ is also saving us by empowering us with the Grace needed to live out this new covenant, and we live in hope of the promises of Christ that He will save us in our final moment of judgement, when He stands beside us before the Father in Heaven, on our bahalf, and recounts how He knows us because we loved Him.
This is the fullness of our faith, and the only picture that possibly can stand without contradicting all the wisdom and truth of Sacred Scripture. If you read the scriptures again with this perspective, you will begin to see how perfectly it fits with the Word of God. To pull out just a piece of it (faith alone) and lay your hope on that does not do justice to God’s total plan for our salvation.
Peace,
javelin
We are not saved by faith alone.
We are not saved by works alone.
We are saved by grace, which is received through faith working in love.
When Paul says we are not saved by our works, he is specifically addressing a concern of the community at the time, which was, basically, “do we still need to follow the Jewish law in order to be saved?” How does Paul answer? He says “No, you don’t need to follow Jewish law, or be a Jew, to be saved.” Good news for many of us!
But the important question is WHY? Why don’t we need to follow the Jewish Law? Did not God give those very laws? Is God simply changing His mind about what things are good and holy? Why was the mosaic law binding in the first place? And why did Jesus say that He did not come to abolish the law, but to complete it? What did He mean? And why would He tell his disciples specifically that they must obey the scribes and the Pharisees (Matt 23:2), even when He knew they would have Him tortured and hung on a tree to die?
The answer lies in the Covenant. With Christ’s death and resurrection, a new Covenant was forged. The mosaic law, which was binding because of the Mosaic Covenant, was no longer binding because that covenant was replaced by the Covenant in Christ’s blood. Thus, after the institution of the new covenant, the disciples (as we see in Acts) were no longer bound to obey the Jewish leaders – those leaders were replaced by the Apostles and their successors (the bishops of the Church). Now the new covenant governs God’s people, and it is a perfect covenant that will last through eternity because it was established by Christ himself.
Here’s the important part. The new covenant obviated the need to follow the old jewish laws. However, the new covenant has its own laws that must be obeyed! Why do you think Jesus gave a “new commandment”? You must have faith! You must Love! You must have hope in Christ! You must obey your God, as Jesus teaches over and over again (just look at Matthew–anywhere–because it is full of exhortations to OBEY, under penalty of being consigned to the place where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth!). All of these make up our new covenant with God, forged in the blood of His own Son, Jesus Christ!
So, did Jesus save (past tense) us? YES! By dying on the cross and rising from the dead, He instituted the new covenant, apart from which we cannot be saved. But Christ is also saving us by empowering us with the Grace needed to live out this new covenant, and we live in hope of the promises of Christ that He will save us in our final moment of judgement, when He stands beside us before the Father in Heaven, on our bahalf, and recounts how He knows us because we loved Him.
This is the fullness of our faith, and the only picture that possibly can stand without contradicting all the wisdom and truth of Sacred Scripture. If you read the scriptures again with this perspective, you will begin to see how perfectly it fits with the Word of God. To pull out just a piece of it (faith alone) and lay your hope on that does not do justice to God’s total plan for our salvation.
Peace,
javelin
B
beng
Guest
Yes
The Bible doesn’t believe in OSAS. You can be saved and lose your salvation if you continue to sin and do not repent!
OSAS undermine the principle of God and evil. Do you think just because you’re saved then you can’t commit no sin?
You, exrc, are you saved?
Have you no sin since you’re saved?
Sorry, I have given you the verses that shows otherwise.
Catholic doctrine easily reconcile the contradiction because we believe of grace alone and that justification is a process. By grace, we have faith. And by grace also, that we do works to increase justice already received.
No. I said that work of mosaic law can justify. In the context Paul was talking about the Jews. So if the Jews, prior to Jesus fulfilled the law BY FAITH and not trying to obligate God, they shall be justified.
And so here we are in the New Testamnet. The Mosaic law is done with and the Church has govern this earthly imperfect kingdom. The rules are set. Those who follow it with the same spirit shall be justified.
No. Paul wrote Romans 2:13
Who wrote Romans 2:13? Me? No, it was Paul.
Paul is.
James 2:24 → NOT BY FAITH ALONE :banghead:
Why are you going against the scripture?
James helps us to clarify tha problem people were having with Paul’s letter. People, like you, are confused about what’s the meaning of faith without work. James, inspired by the Holy Spirit, nullify ALL interpretations that conclude by “FAITH ALONE”. On the contrary James said “NOT BY FAITH ALONE”!!!
Why are you still clinging to a man made doctrine (faith alone is never before preach until 16 century) to God breathed scripture?
In Excelcis Deo, not dumb enough to be Protestant, beng
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