T
tralon
Guest
for by grace are you saved and not of works, so nobody can boast.So says your bible.
- Status
B
beng
Guest
Are these verses missing from your Bible?
Romans 2:13
For not the hearers of the law are just before God:* but the doers of the law shall be justified.***
James 2:21-22
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou that faith did cooperate with his works and by works faith was made perfect?
Rev 20:11-13
11And I saw a great white throne and one sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and heaven fled away: and there was no place found for them 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing in the presence of the throne. And the books were opened: and another book was opened, which was the book of life. And the dead were judged by those things which were written in the books, according to their works.13And the sea gave up the dead that were in it: and death and hell gave up their dead that were in them. And they were judged, every one according to their works.
P
Pax
Guest
Yaqubos,
What do you mean by freedom from sin?
E
exrc
Guest
Catholic friends,
Lets define a few things before we go on.
FAITH: to believe with mind and soul or heart, to trust without doubt,something unseen but real,not a work of any sort.( being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. Heb 11:1)
WORK: Anything that can be achieved using the human body.
GRACE: an unmerited,undeserved, unearned gift from God.
LAW:The 613 articles in the book of Moses including the ten commandments, and Lev. 19:18 loving your neighbor.
BORN-AGAIN: the point at which a person is made spiritually alive, becomes the temple of the Holy Spirit, justified, declared righteous like Adam before the fall, becomes a chosen people and part of the royal priesthood and holy nation of God (1 Peter 2:9), the law is written on there hearts( Jer. 31:33). Did I miss any?
Can we all agree on this so far? If not reply.
In love ex-catholic Dan!
Lets define a few things before we go on.
FAITH: to believe with mind and soul or heart, to trust without doubt,something unseen but real,not a work of any sort.( being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. Heb 11:1)
WORK: Anything that can be achieved using the human body.
GRACE: an unmerited,undeserved, unearned gift from God.
LAW:The 613 articles in the book of Moses including the ten commandments, and Lev. 19:18 loving your neighbor.
BORN-AGAIN: the point at which a person is made spiritually alive, becomes the temple of the Holy Spirit, justified, declared righteous like Adam before the fall, becomes a chosen people and part of the royal priesthood and holy nation of God (1 Peter 2:9), the law is written on there hearts( Jer. 31:33). Did I miss any?
Can we all agree on this so far? If not reply.
In love ex-catholic Dan!
B
beng
Guest
No.
Roma locuta est, causa finita est, not dumb enough to be Protestant, beng.
T
tralon
Guest
How many works does it take for you to get you saved, if Jesus can’t do the job?
B
beng
Guest
As much as Abraham’s
James 2:21-22
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou that faith did cooperate with his works and by works faith was made perfect?
T
tralon
Guest
Tell me what exactly are those works are and how many. Uh, how long will it take?
B
beng
Guest
Duh, read the Bible.
T
tralon
Guest
No way dude. Your the man. Give me the total list. I want to know all the works I have to do to get to heaven. You said it dude, not me. I said faith in Jesus was enough.
S
StSteverino
Guest
Richard Lamb:
A faith that is not lived out is mere opinion. Not even that! People act on their opinions.
Actually, classical protestantism and Catholicism are not that far apart. The recent dialogues between Lutherans and Catholics are informative.
The idea that one simply ‘accepts Christ’ by saying a little prayer after reading a bible tract and has a paid in full title to a mansion in heaven would have had the original protestant fathers throwing up.
As one my old United Methodist Preacher said, believing in Faith alone does not equate to a faith that is alone.
Go across the globe and you will find many thousands of hospitals, charities and orphanages named for Our Lady, St Joseph, St Vincent, St Francis.
Not many are named for John Knox, John Calvin or Spurgeon.
As a Lutheran minister friend of mine said, we know who the real Christians because you will find them carrying the cross not polishing their crowns.
A presbyterian friend once told me that good protestants don’t need to kneel because God sees them kneeling in their hearts.
When I was an office in the Army, if my Commanding General came by and I neglected to salute him, I do not think he would accept my explanation that I was ‘kneeling in my heart’.
Like wise, Jesus, who is the Founder of our faith, (not Paul), gave us very specific commands to live out in Matthew Chp 5-7, The Sermon on the Mount.
When Jesus asks, as He does in Matt 25, I was hungry and you did not give me to eat, will the Faith Camp Fanatics tell him, ‘We fed you in our hearts.’?
We know a faith is dead because it is not lived. By a strange lie of the devil, some fundamentalists actually attack other fundamentalists who do good works for ‘acting Catholic’.
But that says it all, because they were not trying to ‘act Catholic’ or ‘earn salvation’; they were just obeying the Lord.
Steve
Precisely!
A faith that is not lived out is mere opinion. Not even that! People act on their opinions.
Actually, classical protestantism and Catholicism are not that far apart. The recent dialogues between Lutherans and Catholics are informative.
The idea that one simply ‘accepts Christ’ by saying a little prayer after reading a bible tract and has a paid in full title to a mansion in heaven would have had the original protestant fathers throwing up.
As one my old United Methodist Preacher said, believing in Faith alone does not equate to a faith that is alone.
Go across the globe and you will find many thousands of hospitals, charities and orphanages named for Our Lady, St Joseph, St Vincent, St Francis.
Not many are named for John Knox, John Calvin or Spurgeon.
As a Lutheran minister friend of mine said, we know who the real Christians because you will find them carrying the cross not polishing their crowns.
A presbyterian friend once told me that good protestants don’t need to kneel because God sees them kneeling in their hearts.
When I was an office in the Army, if my Commanding General came by and I neglected to salute him, I do not think he would accept my explanation that I was ‘kneeling in my heart’.
Like wise, Jesus, who is the Founder of our faith, (not Paul), gave us very specific commands to live out in Matthew Chp 5-7, The Sermon on the Mount.
When Jesus asks, as He does in Matt 25, I was hungry and you did not give me to eat, will the Faith Camp Fanatics tell him, ‘We fed you in our hearts.’?
We know a faith is dead because it is not lived. By a strange lie of the devil, some fundamentalists actually attack other fundamentalists who do good works for ‘acting Catholic’.
But that says it all, because they were not trying to ‘act Catholic’ or ‘earn salvation’; they were just obeying the Lord.
Steve
B
beng
Guest
You want me to indulge you? LOL
WAH WAH WAH
S
StSteverino
Guest
The old canard that Catholics are trying to ‘earn heaven’.
There is no such list dude. We are saved neither by faith nor works, but by God’s generous gift of Grace. Faith is enough to appropriate that Grace, but it is a living faith that cooperates with grace and obeys the Saviour.
But opinion is not Faith. A mental construct is not Faith.
How can we tell if our faith is real? Love is a big test and we know love not only by what it says but by what it does.
If you say you love Jesus and have faith in Him, but exempt yourself from living out His Mercy commands, you call Him a liar and the Truth is not in you.
It sounds like some of you want to make an idol of some mental opinion, call it faith and award yourself Election, thumb your nose at those pagan Catholics and exempt yourselves from actually obeying Jesus.
To be a Christian is not to ‘get your religion right’.
Its to follow the Christ.
Bear your Cross with humility and be kind. Thats a good start for anyone, especially and including me.
Kyrie Eleison,
Steve
M
MariaG
Guest
In the official teaching of the Catholic Church, no amount of works can save a person. Heaven cannot be earned. But if there are no works in your life, your faith is dead (or never there to begin with).
God Bless,
Maria
God Bless,
Maria
T
tralon
Guest
That’s pretty good. I can see that. Faith first and then some good works for your brother in need. Sounds good.
M
mayra_hart
Guest
Luke 23:41 - some Protestants argue that Jesus gave salvation to the good thief even though the thief did not do any good works. However, the good thief did in fact do a good work, which was rebuking the bad thief when he and others were reviling Jesus. This was a “work” which justified the good thief before Jesus and gained His favor. Moreover, we don’t know if the good thief asked God for forgiveness, did works of penance and charity and was reconciled to God before he was crucified.
Rom. 2:6-10, 13 - God will judge every man according to his works. Our salvation depends on how we cooperate with God’s grace.
2 Cor. 5:10 - at the judgment Seat of Christ, we are judged according to what we have done, not how much faith we had.
2 Cor. 11:15 - our end will correspond to our deeds. Our works are necessary to both our justification and salvation.
Col. 3:24-25 - we will receive due payment according to what we have done. Even so, Catholics recognize that such payment is a free unmerited gift from God borne from His boundless mercy.
Heb. 6:10 - God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for His sake. God rewards our works on earth and in heaven.
Rom. 2:6-10, 13 - God will judge every man according to his works. Our salvation depends on how we cooperate with God’s grace.
2 Cor. 5:10 - at the judgment Seat of Christ, we are judged according to what we have done, not how much faith we had.
2 Cor. 11:15 - our end will correspond to our deeds. Our works are necessary to both our justification and salvation.
Col. 3:24-25 - we will receive due payment according to what we have done. Even so, Catholics recognize that such payment is a free unmerited gift from God borne from His boundless mercy.
Heb. 6:10 - God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for His sake. God rewards our works on earth and in heaven.
Y
YAQUBOS
Guest
Peace be with you!
Catholic4aReasn:
Catholic4aReason:
In Love,
Yaqubos†
Here is what happened also with Jesus. He said things, and the Jews understood other things! I am saying that I thank God because I believe in what He says, and this is a GRACE! I am thanking Him for His Grace. And some people understand me saying: I thank God because I am not like others… I am thanking God for His Grace, and they see me thanking Him for my holiness!!!
Catholic4aReason:
Was Adam free?
In Love,
Yaqubos†
Y
YAQUBOS
Guest
Peace!
Catholic4aReasn:
The Church teaches what the Bible says.
N.B.: I said it before, and I say it now again: I don’t interpret the Scripture, but SCRIPTURE INTERPRETS SCRIPTURE.
In Love,
Yaqubos†
Answer: LIVING Faith, not that dead faith about which many are talking here.Hi Yaqubost!
I’m interested in your interpretation of scripture, but help me understand how I can be sure that it’s correct. Thanks!
In Christ,
Nancy
The Church teaches what the Bible says.
N.B.: I said it before, and I say it now again: I don’t interpret the Scripture, but SCRIPTURE INTERPRETS SCRIPTURE.
In Love,
Yaqubos†
Y
YAQUBOS
Guest
Peace!
Catholic4aReasn:
In Love,
Yaqubos†
I am not dead, but I LIVE by Faith. Those who live, know for certain that they live!Hi Yaqubost!
How can you be certain that you’re understanding this passage correctly. There would be other non-Catholic Christians who disagree with your understanding yet just as certain that theirs is correct. What assurance do you have that you’re not mistaken? Thanks!
In Christ,
Nancy
In Love,
Yaqubos†
Y
YAQUBOS
Guest
Peace!
beng:
In Love,
Yaqubos†
Do you think that your name is written in those books? For the Scripture says that the dead were judged by those things which were written in the books ( books with s )! Isn’t your name in the Book of Life yet? Read the passage again: the books were opened and ANOTHER book was opened ( the Book of Life ). Is your name in that OTHER book? Do you have Life?
In Love,
Yaqubos†
- Status