B
beng
Guest
That link was correct. He post the same argument on page 2 of the thread.
- Status
S
SocaliCatholic
Guest
Very good proof beng!!
S
SocaliCatholic
Guest
Again, where in Scripture does it say that Scripture interprets Scripture?
P
Pax
Guest
beng,
I’m sorry I missed page two.
F
francisca
Guest
(In fact this is in accordance with Catholic theology which said that justification is a process.)
Ladies and gentlemen, than you very much for your attention. Now after hearing the truth, if you’re not Catholic yet, go to the nearest Catholic Church and ask the Fater about RCIA.
BouleTheou & Beng,
I can’t find in Genesis 22 where “circumcised Abraham was justified” after offering Isaac : it is written that God blessed Abraham after Isaac offering. Blessing and justification are two different things.
Genesis 22
13 As Abraham looked about, he spied a ram caught by its horns in the thicket. So he went and took the ram and offered it up as a holocaust in place of his son.
14 3 Abraham named the site Yahweh-yireh; hence people now say, “On the mountain the LORD will see.”
15 Again the LORD’S messenger called to Abraham from heaven
16 and said: "I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you acted as you did in not withholding from me your beloved son,
17 I will bless you abundantly and make your descendants as countless as the stars of the sky and the sands of the seashore; your descendants shall take possession of the gates of their enemies,
18 and in your descendants all the nations of the earth shall find blessing–all this because you obeyed my command.’’
But in Genesis 15 it is written that the “uncircumcised Abraham” was “justified” because of “his faith”.
Genesis 15:6
1 Abram put his faith in the LORD, who CREDITED IT to him as righteousness.
Ladies and Gentlemen, Justification is by faith. No justification after circumcision. In fact, the law of circumcision came after the birth of Ismael, the son that was born because of Abrahams disbelief : just before God promised the birth of Isaac, God asked Abraham to be circumcised. This circumcision is the birth of the law, later will mark Israel as the chosen nation over other nations (just as God said that Isaac was the chosen one, and not Ismael).
The law of circumcision and anathema are two things that was erased once one believe in Jesus Christ (please note that this has to happen personally. This is not to necessarily erase all laws in institutions, because institutions belongs to the world. but those who believe belongs to Christ). Therefore “all food are good” and there is nothing “harem” (defiled) anymore, because Jesus took all defilements (to the law) that was supposedly for us by fulfilling the law. Because of this, whoever believe (in Jesus), to them to be CREDITED God’s righteousness according to His promise to Abraham while he was uncircumcised. This last thing is called Justification by Faith.
Psalms 103
6 The LORD does righteous deeds, brings justice to all the oppressed.
7 His ways were revealed to Moses, mighty deeds to the people of Israel.
8 Merciful and gracious is the LORD, slow to anger, abounding in kindness.
9 God does not always rebuke, nurses no lasting anger,
10 Has NOT dealt with us as our sins merit, nor requited us as our deeds deserve.
11 As the heavens tower over the earth, so God’s love towers over the faithful.
12 As far as the east is from the west, so far have our sins been removed from us.
13 As a father has compassion on his children , so the LORD has compassion on the faithful.
God bless.
B
beng
Guest
Of course you won’t find it.
That was never OUR point. Both Boule Theo and me.
Please read the full exchange because it seems that you didn’t understand it.
Justification is by grace alone which compells faith and work that will add to the justified man.
Again, read carefully the exchange. You’re arguing against no one.
S
SusanG
Guest
*Quoting Dan: Reason being if they already have life through unmeritable means (grace) 1996 CCC, why must they continue to merit something that by its very definition is unmeritable (grace) 2027 CCC? I must admire YAQUBOS for making you guys hold the nail steady so he can drive it home! The reason we non-catholics get all excited about you seemingly born-again catholics, is because we are concerned for the unsaved catholics who are being led down a garden path straight to hell. *
*There are no clear examples of any infants being baptized anywhere in the N.T. This is clearly a catholic fantasy. More importantly however is that infants do not have intellect to **believe ***
anything.
In love ex-catholic Dan
Hi again everyone!
I am a little late on this one, and I am sure that it has been mentioned…but here’s my two cents’ worth.
Funny thing is that I am ‘seemingly’ born again because I believe differently than you do…I really wish that we could avoid that type of labelling, it really diminishes any validity that you may be trying to present…smacks of schoolyard name calling, don’t you think? We understand you think that way about our state of salvation, it is redundant to restate it here.
Next point…as a person raised to believe that Catholic was the equivalent to the ‘whore of Babylon’ and recently accepted into the Church I have intimate knowledge of the types of arguments that you are presenting…No specific mention of infant baptism? Maybe the word ‘infant’ is missing, however there are references to people being converted and baptized…“along with all members of their house” Hmm, think there may have been a baby or two in those houses? Probably a good assumption. Why do you imagine there is mention of whole houses being baptized?
See, here is what I have learned in my faith journey…we sometimes need to step back from the mere regurgitation of what is expounded from the pulpit on Sunday mornings, or what is mentioned in the hottest new books on converting your nearest Catholic…and really really look at what we are reading. I know that I was surprised when the scales fell from my eyes.
Warmest regards from the chilly Maritimes.
Susan
*There are no clear examples of any infants being baptized anywhere in the N.T. This is clearly a catholic fantasy. More importantly however is that infants do not have intellect to **believe ***
anything.
In love ex-catholic Dan
Hi again everyone!
I am a little late on this one, and I am sure that it has been mentioned…but here’s my two cents’ worth.
Funny thing is that I am ‘seemingly’ born again because I believe differently than you do…I really wish that we could avoid that type of labelling, it really diminishes any validity that you may be trying to present…smacks of schoolyard name calling, don’t you think? We understand you think that way about our state of salvation, it is redundant to restate it here.
Next point…as a person raised to believe that Catholic was the equivalent to the ‘whore of Babylon’ and recently accepted into the Church I have intimate knowledge of the types of arguments that you are presenting…No specific mention of infant baptism? Maybe the word ‘infant’ is missing, however there are references to people being converted and baptized…“along with all members of their house” Hmm, think there may have been a baby or two in those houses? Probably a good assumption. Why do you imagine there is mention of whole houses being baptized?
See, here is what I have learned in my faith journey…we sometimes need to step back from the mere regurgitation of what is expounded from the pulpit on Sunday mornings, or what is mentioned in the hottest new books on converting your nearest Catholic…and really really look at what we are reading. I know that I was surprised when the scales fell from my eyes.
Warmest regards from the chilly Maritimes.
Susan
P
Pax
Guest
Francisca,
You will find the reference to "Abraham being justified “after offering Isaac in James 2;21-23 where we are told, “Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God.”
James is telling us about Abraham’s justification in Genesis 22.
You might want to read my earlier posts #226 and #227.
D
dumspirospero
Guest
If you could be saved off Faith alone…wouldn’t that mean the Devil would be save and allowed to re-enter Heaven…because the Devil…no matter how evil and insubordinate he is, has faith in God.
S
StSteverino
Guest
- I must admire YAQUBOS for making you guys hold the nail steady so he can drive it home! *
The reason we non-catholics get all excited about you seemingly born-again catholics, is because we are concerned for the unsaved catholics who are being led down a garden path straight to hell*.** *
**
Yes, when I was an ex-Catholic, I too felt all the messianic angst that goes with false pride. Amazing how you can peer into peoples hearts and sort out the wheat from the chaff.
Our Christ says that is the job of the Angels at the end times and we are to press on with His high calling.
***You think we are headed straight for hell. Care for your own soul brother. It is a field in need of tending. Begin by reading the parable of the publican and the pharisee. ***
It is true many in the pews in Catholic Churches need conversion. Well it should be, Christ instituted in His church an Ark to save sinners, not a cruise ship for the self righteous.
And I have spent many an hour in Sunday school class and in meeting and worship with those clean, well groomed children of John Knox, Charles Darby, Moody, Spurgeon, Luther, Wesley, Johnathan Edwards and all the other man made traditions.
*** I would rather go to Spanish Mass and sit next to an illegal alien with a prison tattoo, clutching his Rosary and trying to conform his heart to Christ than with those who are sure their mere opinions have exempted them from the way of the cross.***
*There are no clear examples of any infants being baptized anywhere in the N.T. This is clearly a catholic fantasy. *
**It is a fantasy practiced in the earliest days of the Church, including by Christians who went willingly with their infants to the jaws of Valerian and Diocletians’ lions and bears. But I suppose your righteousness exceeds theirs. God in His generocity accepts the faith of the parents and conveys prevenient grace, which is a teaching still excepted by many of your protestant bretheren. **
More importantly however is that infants do not have intellect to believe anything.
We are saved by intellect? How Manichaen!
God calls us from our mothers womb!** It is sacramental Christianity that accepts Gods sovereignty, while you proclaim a form of Godliness and deny the power thereof. **
You think accepting Christ is merely right opinion. You say you believe. Are you sure? Lions? Beheading? The early Christians were expected to be ready to die and those who could not bear up where turned away from the table and presumed damned till an extended repentance was satisfied.
Then every man with a bible and a concordance can be his own pope, priest, confessor and even his own Christ, because that is the fruit of the Reformation; Man supplants God and worships himself by going to a weekly lecture.
Next point…as a person raised to believe that Catholic was the equivalent to the ‘whore of Babylon’ and recently accepted into the Church I have intimate knowledge of the types of arguments that you are presenting.
Good for you, but ex Catholic won’t listen, because it is too heady right now. Funny how Catholics are suppose to be ready to apologize for every misstep in our 2000 yr history and no one ever holds the mirror up to the protestants. We have to be the Whore and wrong on everything because if we are right on even one major issue, like the Holy Eucharist, which we are clearly from John 6:52-72, they will have no choice if they are spiritually honest but to join us in genuflecting and singing Tantum Ergo.
Steve
M
mayra_hart
Guest
Many Evangelicals point to Rom 3:28 “…We are justified by faith apart from the works prescribed by the law.” Catholics thinik it important to look at the entire passage in context. Paul did not only say “…apart from works.” He said “…apart from the works*** prescribed by the law***.” The word prescribed infers that it was written down. If you asked a Jew back then what the law was, he would say “the Torah” which was the written law (1st five books of the Bible). To me these “works prescribed in the law” such as circumcision seem quite distinct from Christian works of Charity. This is made clearer in the next verse “or is God the God of the Jews only is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also” (Rom 3:29) The next two verses drives this home. “Since God is one; and he will justify the circumcised (Jews) on the ground of their faith and the uncircumcised (Gentiles) through their faith” (Rom 3:30)." It seems that Paul is talking on this circumcision issue and the other trappings of the old Jewish law that were barriers to Gentiles. It seems to have nothing to do with works of Christian Charity.What good is it, my brothers if you have faith but do not have works? Can faith save you. If a brother is naked and lacks daily food. If one of you says to them, ‘Go in peace, keep warm and eat your fill’, and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead." (James 2:14-16) James goes on to hammer this home in the next few verses. Most of my protestant friends intuitively know this and they work had to serve the Lord.
F
francisca
Guest
The epistle of James
This has been make clear by both Paul and Genesis 22 itself.
Once again :
Genesis 22
18 and in your descendants all the nations of the earth shall find blessing–all this because you obeyed my command.’’
Romans 4:
4 A worker’s wage is credited not as a gift, but as something due.
5 But when one does not work, yet believes in the one who justifies the ungodly, his faith IS CREDITED as righteousness.
You might want to compare this with Genesis 15 once again, so that you might relate Romans 4:5 to Genesis 15:6, while Romans 4:4 is more comparable to Genesis 22:18.
Genesis 15:6
1 Abram put his faith in the LORD, who CREDITED IT to him as righteousness.
The trick is : those who are obedient-- according to Paul-- are those who has believed first. Those who tried to observe the law apart from faith-- lured by sin that is alive because of the law’s power-- breaks the law over and over again. Sin deceives those who believe in the law but forget about God’s Mercy. The latter are those who has fallen from grace : they become the worshippers of the law, enslaved by it, and will never be saved because of their unbelieve. But those who believe, will receive God’s pardon, and because of this, they stop sinning (become sons of obedience by God’s grace). ----> Please remember the gospel stories when Jesus pardoned, the sinner stop sinning/ get well from sickness/ free from punishment----> these show Justification by faith.
James is not telling us that we are justified by works apart from faith. The context is still faith, only James give stress that faith has to be active, so that we are not deceived as having faith but has never shown in our conducts (works).
This understanding is confirmed by 1John 3 :
1John 3
7 Children, let no one deceive you. The person who acts in righteousness is righteous, just as he is righteous.
8 Whoever sins belongs to the devil, because the devil has sinned from the beginning. Indeed, the Son of God was revealed to destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one who is begotten by God commits sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he CANNOT sin because he is begotten by God.
From this passage we know that if we are still sinners we are not God’s children. In the contrary, if we are begotten of God, we will not fail to act righteous. This is the context of James 2:21-24.
Bottom line of all this : Genesis 22 has never spoke about Abraham justification, because in that passage, Abraham was righteous because of his own obedience. When Abraham was obedient, he did not need any justification anymore. He was righteous because he has believed first and then justifed freely by God (Genesis 15), only then he could perform the act of obedience (Genesis 22) out of that faith.
God bless you Pax.
F
francisca
Guest
mayra hart:
Romans 7
7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “YOU SHALL NOT COVET.”
Romans 7
8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.
9 I once lived outside the law, but when the commandment came, sin became alive;
10 then I died, and the commandment that was for life turned out to be death for me.
11 For sin, seizing an opportunity in the commandment, deceived me and through it put me to death.
God bless.
Paul did spoke about works of the ten commandments.
Romans 7
7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “YOU SHALL NOT COVET.”
Romans 7
8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.
9 I once lived outside the law, but when the commandment came, sin became alive;
10 then I died, and the commandment that was for life turned out to be death for me.
11 For sin, seizing an opportunity in the commandment, deceived me and through it put me to death.
The works of love is different because it is done out of love. If it is done to follow rules, it is nothing. Therefore, rules can become a stumble stone, especially if these rules condemn the faithful, so that the faithful becomes fearful, then fall from grace because of those condemnations.
God bless.
S
SocaliCatholic
Guest
As a Catholic, I believe everything is central to God’s love (free gift of grace given to man).
The whole reason God made man was becuase God loves man, and wants man to freely choose to love God.
The greatest commandment Jesus gave us is to love God.
The greatest sign of God’s love is His death on the Cross for the forgiveness of our sins.
Catholics do not believe we can work our way to heaven. On the contrary, the works we do are a response to God’s Love - We Love Him back, not "Faith Him back"
Faith is not a response to God. Love is.
Works of Faith in God = Charity = Love
When the Bible says in James 2:20 faith apart from works is dead, it means that faith (believe in God) outside love (Loving God) is useless.
Its the same thing as knowing that God exists, but doing nothing about it.
Faith is NOT an action. Faith just means you believe in someting.
Since love is an action, faith with love MUST do works.
satan believes that God is God, but does not love God.
**19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?**
The whole reason God made man was becuase God loves man, and wants man to freely choose to love God.
The greatest commandment Jesus gave us is to love God.
The greatest sign of God’s love is His death on the Cross for the forgiveness of our sins.
Catholics do not believe we can work our way to heaven. On the contrary, the works we do are a response to God’s Love - We Love Him back, not "Faith Him back"
Faith is not a response to God. Love is.
Works of Faith in God = Charity = Love
When the Bible says in James 2:20 faith apart from works is dead, it means that faith (believe in God) outside love (Loving God) is useless.
Its the same thing as knowing that God exists, but doing nothing about it.
Faith is NOT an action. Faith just means you believe in someting.
Since love is an action, faith with love MUST do works.
satan believes that God is God, but does not love God.
**19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?**
Y
YAQUBOS
Guest
Peace!
beng:
In Love,
Yaqubos†
I have repeated the explanation many times in different ways. Those who have ears, let them hear.
In Love,
Yaqubos†
Y
YAQUBOS
Guest
Peace be with you!
Pax:
If someone says in this thread: “We believe Jesus Christ is Lord and God”, will you make a long theological discussion with him about the Divinity of Jesus Christ???
So let’s concentrate now on our topic. If the Lord permits, we may talk about freedom from sin in another topic.
In Love,
Yaqubos†
I didn’t put the matter in my post. I just said that those who believe in Jesus receive Life and freedom from sin. It is you who made a case of this.
If someone says in this thread: “We believe Jesus Christ is Lord and God”, will you make a long theological discussion with him about the Divinity of Jesus Christ???
So let’s concentrate now on our topic. If the Lord permits, we may talk about freedom from sin in another topic.
In Love,
Yaqubos†
Y
YAQUBOS
Guest
Peace!
SocaliCatholic:
for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.” ( 2 Peter 1:20-21 )
In Love,
Yaqubos†
“But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,
for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.” ( 2 Peter 1:20-21 )
In Love,
Yaqubos†
Y
YAQUBOS
Guest
Peace be with you!
dumspirospero:
Friends, as you see, this is the problem of those who believe they can have Life by works! They think the Christian faith is just the same as Satan’s faith.
In fact the difference between them is huge!
If you are thinking about Satan’s faith each time we say “by faith”, then allow me to tell you: THAT FAITH WILL NEVER SAVE YOU, unless you repent and believe in Christ with the LIVING Christian Faith that gives fruits ( good works ).
In Love,
Yaqubos†
Thank you for saying this!
Friends, as you see, this is the problem of those who believe they can have Life by works! They think the Christian faith is just the same as Satan’s faith.
In fact the difference between them is huge!
If you are thinking about Satan’s faith each time we say “by faith”, then allow me to tell you: THAT FAITH WILL NEVER SAVE YOU, unless you repent and believe in Christ with the LIVING Christian Faith that gives fruits ( good works ).
In Love,
Yaqubos†
Y
YAQUBOS
Guest
Peace be with you!
Please, everyone, can I ask you something? Accept it as an advice from your little brother. Please, take the time to read previous replies before you reply. Because many things are being repeated again and again many times.
I think this topic has come to the end. We have arrived to the point where faith is needed. We can’t argue more than this in vain.
You need to be alive in order to have good fruits of Life. Having Life means being saved. A dead cannot do anything.
Do you think you have Life?
How did you receive that Life?
If you didn’t receive that Life yet, come to Jesus and have It for free. Don’t let anyone deceive you by telling you that you have to work hard until you get that life! You must have that Life BEFORE being able to work hard by His Grace.
All religions of this earth tell you that you have to work hard to get life. Only the True God tells you that you can have Life for free.
Life is given by God in the Name of Jesus Christ FOR FREE.
“The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.” ( Revelation 22:17 )
This call is not to tell you come out of your church, but out of death to LIFE.
So the whole matter now consists in believing these words of God or not.
Arguing in vain will not save you and will not give you LIFE.
In Love,
Yaqubos†
Please, everyone, can I ask you something? Accept it as an advice from your little brother. Please, take the time to read previous replies before you reply. Because many things are being repeated again and again many times.
I think this topic has come to the end. We have arrived to the point where faith is needed. We can’t argue more than this in vain.
You need to be alive in order to have good fruits of Life. Having Life means being saved. A dead cannot do anything.
Do you think you have Life?
How did you receive that Life?
If you didn’t receive that Life yet, come to Jesus and have It for free. Don’t let anyone deceive you by telling you that you have to work hard until you get that life! You must have that Life BEFORE being able to work hard by His Grace.
All religions of this earth tell you that you have to work hard to get life. Only the True God tells you that you can have Life for free.
Life is given by God in the Name of Jesus Christ FOR FREE.
“The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.” ( Revelation 22:17 )
This call is not to tell you come out of your church, but out of death to LIFE.
So the whole matter now consists in believing these words of God or not.
Arguing in vain will not save you and will not give you LIFE.
In Love,
Yaqubos†
B
beng
Guest
It’s naive to conclude from Rev 20:13-14 that the wicked are judged according to their work while the righteous are not. If you believe that the satndard is faith, then even the wicked should be judge by their faith. If they had no faith than hell be upon them. Yet they are judged according to their work. Why is that.
Your verse twisting doesn’t make any sense whatsoever.
You should look in the mirror before quoting Mark 4:23.
- Status