The Real reason why one cannot be saved by faith alone.

[beng]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

The wicked are JUDGED according to their works, and the emphasis is on “judged”.

Everyone is judged. This is the FINAL judgment.

They are not judged by their faith, because they have no faith!

To decide whether thay have faith or not is to judge by faith.

Twisting verse won’t cut it.

They have chosen to be justified by their works, according to what is written in those books!

No such verse indicating that they chose to be judged by work. And this is rather silly. How in the world people could choose how to be judged by God?

So they are JUDGED by those works, because no flesh will be JUSTIFIED by works.

Romaans 2:13

As for the righteous who have Life by faith:

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.” ( John 5:24 )

Look one verse above it

John 5:21-22
21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. 22 The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son,

“Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.” ( Romans 8:1 )

Judgment =/= condemnation

“Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts?
Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more matters of this life?” ( 1 Corinthians 6:2-3 )

We will judge the world and the angels… And you talk about the judgment of believers…

Read the context. Here Paul is criticizing the Corinthians because they’re quick to turn their brother in faith to the authority for trivial matter. The Corinthians were unable to settle disputes by themselves.

Now, what is to judge then? Does it means punishments? Of course not. If that indeed is the meaning than Paul would not say “Law courts” because “courts” don’t always render a guilty verdict.

The problem with you is that you always equate “judged/judgment” with “punishment” which simply can not be. If that is so all the below verses will prove meaningless.

1Co 11:32
But when we are judged by the Lord, we are chastened so that we may not be condemned along with the world.

1Ti 1:12
I thank him who has given me strength for this, Christ Jesus our Lord, because he judged me faithful by appointing me to his service,

Re 11:18
The nations raged, but thy wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, for rewarding thy servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear thy name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth."

I didn’t even explain these verses, because they are VERY clear! And you say I am twisting… But when you create vain human philosophies around the verses, that is not twisting…

In Love,
Yaqubos†

You are twisting by implying that “judged/judgment always means punishment”

The three verses I quoted show that “judged/judgment” just mean what it’s mean, and that is to give what is due. For the wicked, a punishment. For the righteous, a reward.

 

[beng]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

“The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.” ( Revelation 22:17 )

Have you drink that? It happens on the last day. If you don’t have life by then can you still enter the Lamb’s supper?

This call is not for you IF you think you are righteous, if you think you have Life just because you are taking the body and the blood of Jesus Christ. Don’t you know that “whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord.” ( 1 Corinthians 11:27 )??

Why do you think that we took the body and blood of Christ unworthily?

“I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” ( Matthew 9:13 )

What’s this gotta do with everything?

Our Master didn’t come to call those who think they are righteous and they are alive, while they are DEAD! We, His disciples, we also don’t call those who think they are righteous.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

Our Master did tell us to drink his blood and eat His body to have life.

 

[SocaliCatholic]

YAQUBOS:

Peace!

“But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,
for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.” ( 2 Peter 1:20-21 )

In Love,
Yaqubos†

Please explain how this verse means Scripture interprets Scripture. I could not find Scripture interprets Scripture after reading it three times.

 

[Pax]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

Do you accept the following “PLAIN” words of James:

“Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?
But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you and personally drag you into court?
Do they not blaspheme the fair name by which you have been called?” ( James 2:5-7 )

Some “PLAIN” conclusions from these verses:

1. God only chose the poor of this world to be saved.
2. It is the rich who oppress.
3. The rich blaspheme the fair name of the Lord.

So why don’t you accept these “PLAIN” words of James?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

Yaqubos,

I accept “all” of scripture and I do so within the context of the entirety of scripture. It is not that I have a disagreement with scripture. Instead, I disagree with how you interpret scripture. Now please take note: You have drawn three conclusions from James 2:5-7, but (and this seems to be par for the course) you neglected to draw the obvious conclusion which I have been pressing you for from the get go.

James says as part of this quote, "…to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom **which He promised to those who love Him/**b] So how about conclusion #4?

And the conclusion is: God promises the kingdom to those who love Him. So, you do have to love God in order to be saved, and contrary to all of your previous claims we are “not" saved by faith alone. And remember that it is Paul, himself, who says, " If any one has no love for the Lord, let him be accursed.”[1 Cor 16:22] This statement is not an affirmation of salvation, but one of condemnation. If you do not love God, you will not go to heaven.

 

[exrc]

[Hi again everyone!

I am a little late on this one, and I am sure that it has been mentioned…but here’s my two cents’ worth.

Funny thing is that I am ‘seemingly’ born again because I believe differently than you do…I really wish that we could avoid that type of labelling, it really diminishes any validity that you may be trying to present…smacks of schoolyard name calling, don’t you think? We understand you think that way about our state of salvation, it is redundant to restate it here.

Next point…as a person raised to believe that Catholic was the equivalent to the ‘whore of Babylon’ and recently accepted into the Church I have intimate knowledge of the types of arguments that you are presenting…No specific mention of infant baptism? Maybe the word ‘infant’ is missing, however there are references to people being converted and baptized…“along with all members of their house” Hmm, think there may have been a baby or two in those houses? Probably a good assumption. Why do you imagine there is mention of whole houses being baptized?

[/QUOTE]------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My quote

Susan, I’m sorry if you took my comments as slur. Didn’t mean it that way. I’m just in shock that you can seem to be truly saved and not, as I see it, understand the simplicity of the “good news”.

Raised as an rc I experienced the whole deal from water baptism, to holy communion, to confirmation, and all the ccd classes where I did very well if I might add. All along feeling like there was something missing. There was ! It was salvation.Which I was told I had, so just be a good boy and trust us THEY SAID. It is a very complex religion if you haven’t already found out. I never knew what to believe and what not to. Everybody had a different answer. Mom+ Dad took me to mass every sunday until THEY SAID we could now go on saturdays too. What was a bible? These are just a few examples. If you say all thats changed now. Thats my point! I see protestants becoming catholics and it blows my mind! You have no idea what your getting into.

Roman Catholicism starts off with a false premise. Your born-again by WORKS ALONE and that not even your works,that is, water baptism by a priest.

Holy communion is next where you can receive one for the first time the host. Excuse me, but if you’re already the body of christ, why can’t you receive communion.

Next confirmation where you get to decide if you want to stick with this gig. When all you’re really thinking is how much money Aunt Stella is gonna pack in your envelope. While you have that false piety written all over your face.

By the time you are a teenager they have you thoroughly convinced that everything is O.K. between you and God.

So now you walk around with this false sense of security.Thinking you’re not such a bad guy I mean I never killed anybody or robbed a bank. This was me until someone asked me where I was going when I died. I answered “well, I don’t know , I guess heaven, I mean I was baptized and all that stuff, I’m catholic”.

Susan, R.C. is built on a false premise and it keeps getting worse.

I now have peace with God because I am a son of God ,born into Gods family by Spirit of adoption . I have passed from death to life because I have believed on the one whom the the Father has sent. Never to be condemned for my sins, a free gift, not the bondage of religion which I had.

In love, your friend Dan!

 

[javelin]

exrc:

Roman Catholicism starts off with a false premise. Your born-again by WORKS ALONE and that not even your works,that is, water baptism by a priest.

Yes, this premise is false. The Catholic Church thinks so, too! If this is what you thought you were leaving, then you were mistaken.

We are saved by God’s grace alone, which we receive through living (working) our faith out in love. That’s it. The gift (grace) is still freely given, and it is constantly offered, but we must take action to accept it, which entails avoiding the things Satan does to keep us from accepting it. If you were taught in CCD anything differently, then you were not properly instructed.

exrc:

I now have peace with God because I am a son of God ,born into Gods family by Spirit of adoption . I have passed from death to life because I have believed on the one whom the the Father has sent. Never to be condemned for my sins, a free gift, not the bondage of religion which I had.

I’m glad you have found peace with God, but are you certain it is with the true God, and not an imperfect image of God that certain people made for you? You claim that your knowledge comes from Scripture, but if this discussion has done nothing, it should show that it is possible that different doctrinal opinions can be gleaned from Scripture, each with its own foundation of “proof”.

Be careful that you are with your true Father, and that you haven’t taken his gift of Grace, your inheritance, into your own hands and down the path to squandering it just as the prodigal son. I have no doubt that you have life in Christ, but that life can be lost in reckless living (and reckless belief).

2 Peter 2:

1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their licentiousness, and because of them the way of truth will be reviled…9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trial, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment, 10 and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority…19 They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption; for whatever overcomes a man, to that he is enslaved. 20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire.
Catholics, too, live in peace. We have confident hope in the promise of our Lord that He will bring all those who love Him in mind, body, and soul. We do not live in “bondage to religion”. Rather, we are bound by the eternal covenant forged in Jesus’ blood, and sealed in His resurrection.

Peace,
javelin

 

[RMP]

exrc
You may lose your fellowship but never your salvation or Christ would have come to earth and continue to die on a cross every time we sin.

WHAT? I thought Adam had fellowship with GOD before the FALL. Then after he took the apple, not only did he lose fellowship, He lost SALVATION. And the incarnation was still neccesary. So what your saying is, none of this mattered. Times have changed. LOL. protestants!

Have you read the prodigal son? “your Brother was LOST, and now he is found” So he really didnt have to come home after all. WOW, your logic amazes me.

 

[RMP]

If you are thinking about Satan’s faith each time we say “by faith”, then allow me to tell you: THAT FAITH WILL NEVER SAVE YOU, unless you repent and believe in Christ with the LIVING Christian Faith that gives fruits ( good works ).

This comment is nonsense, because Satan did have faith at one time, he was in heaven already. Did he somewhow lose it? So Satan lost his faith? I guess the once saved always saved doctrine just went down the drain.
Satan lost his humility and his love. So if you want to say by LOVE ALONE, I can agree, that is what GOD is. But faith alone, you cannot prove true which never has been true.

 

[RMP]

Peace be with you!
Quote:
Originally Posted by beng
Work and faith is performed under grace. Without grace none are possible.

Islam says the same thing as you say… Jehovah’s Witnesses too… And all other deceiving religions of this corrupted world…

There is some teachings of truth outside the Catholic church. Just not fullness of truth. Protestants are the only religion in the world that object. In this objection of doctrine they are alone.

 

[exrc]

javelin:

Yes, this premise is false. The Catholic Church thinks so, too! If this is what you thought you were leaving, then you were mistaken.

We are saved by God’s grace alone, which we receive through living (working) our faith out in love. That’s it. The gift (grace) is still freely given, and it is constantly offered, but we must take action to accept it, which entails avoiding the things Satan does to keep us from accepting it. If you were taught in CCD anything differently, then you were not properly instructed.

Peace,
javelin

javelin,I defined the terms faith, works,law,grace,and born- again in a previous post. Nobody corrected me so I will assume that you all agree.Fair enough?

R.C. does start with a false premise,as you shall see.

The way you get born-again as an rc is by water baptism as an infant. No personal faith is required by that infant.It is by works alone.

Grace draws the potential believer to a saving faith capable of reason, not an infant.

Scripture tells us that we are born-again by faith(personal belief).John1:12.

The two unquestionably oppose each other.

Using my definition of born again, you become at that point a son of God, spiritually alive, able to do good works.

I can see why you are having such a tough time with this since you have to believe that something took place when it really didn’t.

If water baptism effects the second birth, and you guys keep getting unborn-again when you sin. Then it is logical to think that you should spend most of your life in the water. Also, since the Holy Spirit has left you and you are spiritually dead once again, someone would have to evangelize you once again.

Catholics seem to overlook the practicality of their very complex system of beliefs.

IN love ex-catholic Dan!

 

[exrc]

RMP:

WHAT? I thought Adam had fellowship with GOD before the FALL. Then after he took the apple, not only did he lose fellowship, He lost SALVATION. And the incarnation was still neccesary. So what your saying is, none of this mattered. Times have changed. LOL. protestants!

Have you read the prodigal son? “your Brother was LOST, and now he is found” So he really didnt have to come home after all. WOW, your logic amazes me.

RMP,Was eating the apple a mortal or just a venial sin?

 

[beng]

exrc:

Susan, I’m sorry if you took my comments as slur. Didn’t mean it that way. I’m just in shock that you can seem to be truly saved and not, as I see it, understand the simplicity of the “good news”.

Raised as an rc I experienced the whole deal from water baptism, to holy communion, to confirmation, and all the ccd classes where I did very well if I might add. All along feeling like there was something missing. There was ! It was salvation.Which I was told I had, so just be a good boy and trust us THEY SAID. It is a very complex religion if you haven’t already found out. I never knew what to believe and what not to. Everybody had a different answer. Mom+ Dad took me to mass every sunday until THEY SAID we could now go on saturdays too. What was a bible? These are just a few examples. If you say all thats changed now. Thats my point! I see protestants becoming catholics and it blows my mind! You have no idea what your getting into.

Really? Just because you didn’t get straight answers from people who’re not well educated in the Catholic faith then you just discount it?

Every question you have is easily answered in the CCC. But that’s too hard to look isn’t it?

And about the blasphemous OSAS, did you happen to read my post on third page?

2Tim 4:6-8
6 For I am even now ready to be sacrificed: and the time of my dissolution is at hand. 7 I* have fought a good fight: I have finished my course: I have kept the faith.** 8 As to the rest, there is laid up for me a crown of justice which the Lord the just judge will render to me in that day: and not only to me, but to them also that love his coming. Make haste to come to me quickly.*

There’s no such thing as OSAS and Paul knows it.

Romans 8: 24-25
24 For we are saved by hope. But hope that is seen is not hope. For what a man seeth, why doth he hope for? 25 But if we hope for that which we see not, we wait for it with patience.

What is there to hope if OSAS?

1Pet 1:3
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy hath regenerated us unto a lively hope, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead: 4 Unto an inheritance, incorruptible, and undefiled and that cannot fade, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who, by the power of God, are kept by faith unto salvation, ready to be revealed in the last time.

There are the elect (1Peter 1:1-2). But you can not know it. Those who believe in OSAS are presumptious.

Deo Gratia, not dumb enough to be Protestant, beng.

And I would like to challange anyone who believe OSAS to answer these questions:

1. Are you saved and sure of your salvation? (if yes, go to question 2 If not, stop.)
2. Have you commited no sin since you’re saved? (if yes, go to question 3 If not, stop.)
3. When you commit that sin, do you think you still earn salvation before you repented?

Continue below

 

[beng]

Roman Catholicism starts off with a false premise. Your born-again by WORKS ALONE and that not even your works,that is, water baptism by a priest.

**Dave Armstrong - A Biblical Defense of Catholicism (P 59-65)

The Second Council of Orange (529) and the Council of Trent (1545-1563) on the Doctrine of Justification**

The Second Council of Orange in 529 condemned the heresies of Pelagianism and Semi-Pelagianism (which St. Augustine had already done a century earlier). Pelagianism denied Original Sin and regarded grace as within man's natural capacities. Semi-Pelagianism made man primarily responsible for his own salvation and denigrated the necessity of God's enabling grace.

The Council made many binding definitions of grace and salvation which may be quite surprising to many Protestants, who are wont to accuse the Catholic Church of the same heresies which it anathematized fourteen centuries ago. The Catholic Church fully agrees with Holy Scripture that faith, the subjective condition of justification, is a gift of God (Ephesians 2:8 ff., John 6:66, Hebrews 12:12, Philippians 1:6, 1:29, 1 Corinthians 4:7). This was the emphasis of 2nd Orange. Several of its more important decrees follow:

Canon 3: If anyone says that the grace of God can be conferred in answer to man’s petition, but that the petition itself is not due to the action of grace, he contradicts the prophet Isaiah and the Apostle, who both say: ‘I was found by them that did not seek me, I appeared openly to them that ask not after me’ (Romans 10:20, Isaiah 15:1).

Canon 4: If anyone contends that God waits for our will so we may be cleansed from sin – and does not admit that the very fact that we even will to be cleansed comes in us by the infusion and work of the Holy Spirit, he resists the same Holy Spirit.

Canon 5: If anybody says that the . . . beginning of Faith and the Act of Faith itself . . . is in us naturally and not by a gift of grace that is by the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, he is opposed to Apostolic teaching.

Canon 6: If anyone says that God has mercy on us when, without his grace, we believe, will, desire, strive, work, watch, study, ask, seek, knock, and does not confess that we believe, will, and are enabled to do all this in the way we ought, by the infusion and inspiration of the Holy Spirit within us; or makes the help of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man, rather than ascribing such humility and obedience to the free gift of grace; he goes counter to the Apostle, who says, ‘What hast thou that thou hast not received?’ and ‘By the grace of God I am what I am’ (1 Corinthians 4:7 and 15:10).

Canon 7: If anyone asserts that we can, by our natural powers, think as we ought, or choose any good pertaining to the salvation of eternal life, that is, consent to salvation or to the message of the Gospel, without the illumination and inspiration of the Holy Spirit . . . he is misled by a heretical spirit, not understanding what the voice of God says in the Gospel, ‘Without me you can do nothing’ (John 15:5), nor the words of the Apostle, ‘Not that we are sufficient to think anything of ourselves, as of ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God’ (2 Corinthians 3:5).

Canon 9: As often as we do good God operates in us and with us, so that we may operate.

Canon 13: Free will, weakened in the person of the first man, can be repaired only by the grace of Baptism . . . [cites Jn 8:36].

Canon 20: Man does no good except that which God brings about that man performs . . .

continue below

 

[beng]

Canon 25: In a word, to love God is a gift of God. He, yet unloved, loves us and gave us the power to love . . . Through the sin of the first man, the free will is so weakened and warped, that no one thereafter can either love God as he ought, or believe in God, or do good for the sake of God, unless moved, previously, by the grace of the divine mercy . . . In every good work that we do, it is not we who have the initiative, aided, subsequently, by the mercy of God, but that he begins by inspiring faith and love towards him, without any prior merit of ours.

The Council of Trent (1545-1563) reiterated the decrees of a thousand years earlier, developing them further, and emphasizing man's free will (over against Protestantism) but adding nothing essential. Some of the more notable portions of the Decree on Justification (January 13, 1547)  follow:

Chapter 5: . . . The beginning of the said justification is to be derived from the prevenient grace of God through Jesus Christ; that is to say, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits existing on their parts, they are called; that so they who by sins were alienated from God may be disposed through His quickening and assisting grace to convert themselves to their own justification by freely assenting to and cooperating with that said grace: in such sort that, while God touches the heart of man by the illumination of the Holy Ghost, neither is man himself utterly without doing anything while he receives that inspiration, for as much as he is also able to reject it; yet he is not able, by his own free-will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight.

Canon I: If anyone saith that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.34

Canon IV: If anyone saith that man’s free-will, moved and excited by God, by assenting to God exciting and calling, no wise cooperates towards disposing and preparing itself for obtaining the grace of justification; that it cannot refuse its consent, if it would, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive; let him be anathema.

…

continue below

 

[beng]

In the Decree on Justification (chapters 9, 12, 15), Trent also rejects classic Protestantism’s notion of subjective absolute assurance of salvation:

But, although it is necessary to believe that sins neither are remitted, nor ever were remitted save gratuitously by the mercy of God for Christ’s sake, yet it is not to be said that sins are forgiven, or have been forgiven, to any one who boasts of his confidence and certainty of the remission of sins, and rests on that alone; seeing that it may exist, yea does in our day exist, amongst heretics and schismatics; and with great vehemence is this vain confidence, and one alien from all godliness, preached up in opposition to the Catholic Church. But neither is this to be asserted, that they who are truly justified must needs, without any doubting whatever, settle within themselves that they are justified, and that no one is absolved from sins and justified but he that believes for certain that he is absolved and justified; and that absolution and justification are effected by this faith alone; as though whoso has not this belief doubts of the promises of God and of the efficacy of the death and resurrection of Christ. For even as no pious person ought to doubt of the mercy of God, of the merit of Christ, and of the virtue and efficacy of the sacraments, even so each one, when he regards himself and his own weakness and indisposition, may have fear and apprehension touching his own grace; seeing that no one can know with a certainty of faith, which cannot be subject to error, that he has obtained the grace of God.

No one, moreover, so long as he is in this mortal life, ought so far to presume as regards the secret mystery of divine predestination as to determine for certain that he is assuredly in the number of the predestinate; as if it were true that he that is justified either cannot sin any more, or, if he do sin, that he ought to promise himself an assured repentance; for except by special revelation it cannot be known whom God hath chosen unto Himself.

 . . . It is to be maintained that the received grace of justification is lost not only by infidelity, whereby even faith itself is lost, but also by any other mortal sin whatever, though faith be not lost . . .

So you are either lying or clueless of the Catholic faith.

Holy communion is next where you can receive one for the first time the host. Excuse me, but if you’re already the body of christ, why can’t you receive communion.

Every Catholic who’s not a heretic (Kerry) can receive communion.

And the rule is not set by the Catholic Church but by the apostle Paul.

1 Cor 11:27-29
27 Therefore, whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread and drink of the chalice. 29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord.

Next confirmation where you get to decide if you want to stick with this gig. When all you’re really thinking is how much money Aunt Stella is gonna pack in your envelope. While you have that false piety written all over your face.

Disgusting of you.

By the time you are a teenager they have you thoroughly convinced that everything is O.K. between you and God.

Why shouldn’t we?

continue below.

 

[beng]

Final

So now you walk around with this false sense of security.Thinking you’re not such a bad guy I mean I never killed anybody or robbed a bank. This was me until someone asked me where I was going when I died. I answered “well, I don’t know , I guess heaven, I mean I was baptized and all that stuff, I’m catholic”.

You’re the one with OSAS and you’re accusing the Catholic Church to offer false sense of security?

Of course no one know whether they’re going to Heaven or not.

Susan, R.C. is built on a false premise and it keeps getting worse.

Protestantism is born out of heresy that never seen the light of day until the mad monk of Wittenberg preach the defficient man-made doctrine.

The Catholic Church is built on Kephas and the gates of hell will not prevail over it.

I now have peace with God because I am a son of God ,born into Gods family by Spirit of adoption . I have passed from death to life because I have believed on the one whom the the Father has sent. Never to be condemned for my sins, a free gift, not the bondage of religion which I had.

In love, your friend Dan!

You have peace because you believe the false sense of security over by the unbiblical and blasphemous OSAS doctrine. You may keep deceiving yourself to get that piece of mind if you treasure it so much.

In grace, your seperated brethren beng.

 

[javelin]

exrc:

javelin,I defined the terms faith, works,law,grace,and born- again in a previous post. Nobody corrected me so I will assume that you all agree.Fair enough?

No, I read that post and I don’t agree with your definitions. Nor did Pax, if I recall correctly.

I think the most important point is the definition of faith. I think careful reading of Scripture makes it clear that the writers believed that faith cannot exist without works. The whole idea was absurd to them, and it should be for us. Faith and works are inseparable. Faith doesn’t beget works, as though faith came first, and then the works followed. They are one, and faith comes with works as well as goes with works (good or ill, for better or for worse). Faith is not a black and white issue – there are degrees to faith. The seed of faith is present in every man, and it can wax or wane. It is our works that affect that faith, either nurturing it and growing it or starving it and cutting it off. Through the workings of faith in love, we receive God’s grace, and it is that grace that saves us.

Personal belief is NOT equivalent to faith! Faith is not simply an intellectual assent to the existence of God and Jesus, and the acknowledgement that Jesus died for sins and rose from the dead. Faith is so much more than that! Jesus said “if you had faith the size of a mustard seed…”. Did He mean “If you believe that I am real…”, or did He mean “If you truly conform your life to mine…”? The former is ridiculous, while the latter is staggering. Faith is inseparable from how we live our lives.

exrc:

The way you get born-again as an rc is by water baptism as an infant. No personal faith is required by that infant.It is by works alone.

Grace draws the potential believer to a saving faith capable of reason, not an infant.

If that’s what you believe, then children can’t go to heaven because they are incapable of having saving faith. Which is more believable, that God honors the faith of parents and the Church and bestows sanctifying Grace on infants, or that all infants who die go to hell? Also, the Church teaches that water baptism isn’t always necessary to receive sanctifying grace.

exrc:

If water baptism effects the second birth, and you guys keep getting unborn-again when you sin. Then it is logical to think that you should spend most of your life in the water. Also, since the Holy Spirit has left you and you are spiritually dead once again, someone would have to evangelize you once again.

No, we aren’t unborn-again, but it is possible to enter into spiritual death through sin after being born again. Do born-again Christians no longer sin? Ridiculous! How could you possibly believe that! We are brought back to spiritual life by repenting of sin and returning to God, just like the prodigal son. God’s grace is always there and His forgiveness is infinite.

exrc:

Catholics seem to overlook the practicality of their very complex system of beliefs.

No, I would say that protestants overlook every bit of scripture that commands obedience, and forget that God is perfect in Justice as well as Love. Have you ever read the gospel of Matthew? It is littered with charges that the obedient will live, while the disobedient perish.

Here is a good question for you. Look through the New Testament and tell me what it says is the opposite of belief. For if personal belief = faith, and faith = salvation, then what the Bible says the opposite of belief is should help us understand what *true belief *is, and what will indeed lead to salvation.

Peace,
javelin

 

[beng]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

Islam says the same thing as you say… Jehovah’s Witnesses too… And all other deceiving religions of this corrupted world…

No. Islam has a concept call Pahala which is more Pelagian than semi-Pelagian. You don’t know much do you.

I hope you are reading what you are writing…

In Love,
Yaqubos†

I do.

 

[beng]

exrc:

RMP,Was eating the apple a mortal or just a venial sin?

Disobeying God is a mortal sin.

Do Protestants somehow omit this verse from their Bible?

1Jo 5:17
All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.

 

[RMP]

Eating the apple was not the sin.
The sin was, ADAM failed to avoid the apple (an act), it was forbidden, because he failed to trust GOD in this matter. (faith).
The sin was an action caused by a lack of faith. By the way, did Adam have GRACE during all of this? hmmmmmmm. The consequence was death. Just what the Catholic church teaches.

But if you want the authorative version. GO ask the POPE, he now has the authority to bind and lose.