The Real reason why one cannot be saved by faith alone.

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exrc:
It is faith or works my friend ,not both
In love ex-catholic Dan!
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Sorry Dan, that’s not what Scripture says. Faith AND works (In James it says “Faith without works is dead” and that we are “Faith Alone cannot save you”) AND love (If I have Faith so as to move mountains and have not love. . .I am nothing). If we really want to be servents of Jesus Christ, we must do all that he says.

Yours in Christ.
 
OSAS neccessarily follows from salvation by faith alone, at least so far as the protestant members of this discussion have described.

In that viewpoint, justification is a legal, juridical pronouncement of God that declares the sinner clean and creates him/her anew as a child of God. Once that profound change takes place, nothing can undo it. Once a child of God, always a child of God, and there is nothing man can do to take that which is God’s away from Him. Therefore, God’s promised inheritance of everlasting life cannot be lost, because once you have been created anew in God, that action by God cannot be undone.

The Catholic perspective, as far as I understand it, is similar, though different in a profound way.

I understand that justification and rebirth occurs when we are baptized. That rebirth gives us a new life perfectly clean from sin. By virtue of the grace of God that justifies, we are made as new, children of God, destined to inherit everlasting life. However, we know from scripture that nothing unclean can come before God in Heaven, and we also know that even after being born again, we can still choose to reject God (sin). Therefore, we must guard against sin in our lives and come back to God in repentance of our sin, lest that sin lead us so far from God that He doesn’t recognize us as anymore. Luke 12 clearly states that even believers (servants) will suffer punishment for our sins, even if we don’t know they are sins! The ultimate wage of sin is death, and so we must always walk in obedience to Christ, lest our sinfulness lead us away from Christ and into death. The story of the sheep and goats makes it clear that the greatest sin is NOT loving, which is also breaking the greatest commandment. Therefore, we must love in order to live in Christ’s loving Grace, which is the grace that saves us.

Still, I believe that it takes very grave sin to truly separate us from God to the point that we will no longer be saved. I think most people who honestly seek God do not commit grave, mortal sin very often, if ever. But that is my opinion.

Peace,
javelin
 
Personally, I think the Catholic perspective on the forgiveness of sins and justification is more joyful that the general protestant perspective.

The protestant perspective seems to be (and correct me if I’m wrong) that when we are justified, we are covered by Christ so that when God looks upon us, He sees not our sins, but Christ, and is therefore pleased. The core is still the sinful, rotten me, just covered by Christ’s love. It is the “God looking at us through Jesus-colored glasses” analogy that I’ve heard before.

The Catholic perspective, however, seems to give us much more dignity. From that point of view, when we are justified (and every time we are forgiven afterwards), our sins are not just covered by Christ, but by the power of His resurrection they are wiped away and completely obliterated. In that way, when God looks on us, He sees US in union with Christ’s Spirit, not just us hiding behind Jesus. Throughout that process, He is making us more and more like He designed us to be – in His perfect image. That is SANCTIFICATION, and it is the joyful process whereby our cooperation with God’s Grace and avoidance of sin makes us more and more like Christ, so that when we die, we will be able to experience a resurrection like Christ. It is not something that God just does to us (if so, then why isn’t everyone saved, since God desires that?), but something we lovingly do with Him, because He desired it to be so.

Peace,
javelin
 
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YAQUBOS:
Peace be with you!

Do you believe that Jesus is ETERNAL God and that He REALY DIED?

What does it mean that GOD who NEVER DIES really DIED?

In Love,
Yaqubos†
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I was refuting the erroneous protestant doctrine of substitunary atonement.
 
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javelin:
exrc,

I’m really curious about something that has never made sense to me concerning the general protestant position. Maybe you can help.

How do you relly know when/if you have been justified (born again), and thus unchangably destined for eternal life? If justification is a one-time, irreversible juridical act, then shouldn’t people know for certain when such a life-changing event has taken place?

I have been baptised, and prayed the sinner’s prayer with absolutely conscious sincerity. So is that it? Am I in?

javelin
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'“The wind blows where it wishes,and you here the sound of it,but do not know where it comes from and where it is going ; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit”. John 3:8

javelin said," How can these things be "?

“Truly, Truly, I say to you, we speak that which we know ,and bare witness of that which we have seen ; and you do not receive our witness”. John 3:11

I guess not, what more can he say?
 
exrc said:
’“The wind blows where it wishes,and you here the sound of it,but do not know where it comes from and where it is going ; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit”. John 1:8

javelin said," How can these things be "?

“Truly, Truly, I say to you, we speak that which we know ,and bare witness of that which we have seen ; and you do not receive our witness”. John 1:11

I guess not, what more can he say?
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2Tim 4:6-8
6 For I am even now ready to be sacrificed: and the time of my dissolution is at hand. 7 I* have fought a good fight: I have finished my course: I have kept the faith.** 8 As to the rest, there is laid up for me a crown of justice which the Lord the just judge will render to me in that day: and not only to me, but to them also that love his coming. Make haste to come to me quickly.*

There’s no such thing as OSAS and Paul knows it.

Romans 8: 24-25
24 For we are saved by hope. But hope that is seen is not hope. For what a man seeth, why doth he hope for? 25 But if we hope for that which we see not, we wait for it with patience.

What is there to hope if OSAS?

This blasphemous deficient doctrine needs to die.

Deo Gratia, not dumb enough to be Protestant, beng.
 
More verse to debunked the silly OSAS

1Pet 1:3
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy hath regenerated us unto a lively hope, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead: 4 Unto an inheritance, incorruptible, and undefiled and that cannot fade, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who, by the power of God, are kept by faith unto salvation, ready to be revealed in the last time.

There are the elect (1Peter 1:1-2). But you can not know it. Those who believe in OSAS are presumptious.

Deo Gratia, not dumb enough to be Protestant, beng.
 
I asked that our Protestant participants give an exegesis of James. So far none has been forthcoming.

In lieu of this, BouleTheous argues futilely against the fact that scripture states that Abraham was justified before God more than once. In Protestant theology you are only justified one time. It is Protestant teaching that Abraham was justified only once and that this took place when he believed in the promise of Yahweh in Genesis 15:6. If Protestant theology were correct, Abraham could not be justified either before or after this event. According to scripture, Abraham was justified both before and after he believed in the promise outlined in Genesis 15:6. In Hebrews 11:1-2 it says, “NOW FAITH is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the men of old received divine approval. Then were told in Hebrews 11:8 that “By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise.” This event in Hebrews comes from Genesis 12:1-4. This is a full three chapters and many years before the event described in Genesis 15.

Abraham is justified again when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar in Genesis 22. Now we can be sure that he was given justification in this event because in James 2;21-23 we are told, “Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God.

You cannot spin these scriptures to mean anything other than what they say, and this should put to rest the contention that we are only justified once. Justification is a continuing process and these verses prove it. In scripture salvation/justification is referred to as a past event, a present event, and as a future event for believers.
As a past event see Romans 8:24 and Ephesians 2:5-8
As a present event see 1 Corinthians 1-18, 2 Corinthians 2:15, Phillipians 2:12, and
1 Peter 1:8-9
As a future event see Romans 13:11, Romans 5:9-10, 1 Corinthians 3:12-15, Matthew 24:12-14, and 1 Peter 2:2-3

If you search the scriptures you will also see that the word sanctification is also referred to as a past, present, and future event. Both are on going. If you believe in the inspired word of God, you cannot come to any other conclusion. Scripture is so clear that no refutation is possible.

BouleTheou’s argument that Paul somehow doesn’t recognize this, or is “utterly unaware of it”, particularly as it applies to Abraham, is nonsense. Paul knew the scriptures of the OT. The reasoning used by BouleTheou is based on “his doctrinal premise” and not from the teaching of scripture. BouleTheou’s logic pits Paul and James against one another in a way that is irreconcilable. Such contradictions do not exist in scripture. Only Catholic teaching embraces both Paul and James without contradiction. Moreover, the Catholic view was the universal understanding of justification until Luther invented his man made tradition only 500 years ago.
 
The following exegesis of James should give food for thought to those that seem to think his writings are of less value than Paul’s or that they are somehow less inspired.

(1) James uses the word “justified” in 2:21, in 2:24, and in 2:25. As an apostle, James would know exactly what the word “justified” means.
(2) James uses the word “righteousness” in 2:23 and once again James would know exactly what this word means.
(3) James refers to Abraham in verses 2:21-23 and he speaks of Abraham’s faith in the same way that Paul does.
(4) James tells us in verse 2:19-20 “You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe–and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Notice that the demons believe but are not saved. The demons believe but they do not love God. The demons believe but do not worship God. The demons believe but they do not obey God. The demons are not going to be with God in heaven. Then add to this James next point that “Faith without works is barren.”
(5) Finally James tells us in verse 26 that, “…as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.” This analogy by James is powerful in its message. Note the comparison to something that we all know and agree on. A human being is made up of body and spirit, and a person is alive only as long as the body and spirit remain together. Remove the spirit and the body is dead. And so it is with faith and works. Faith apart from works is dead. You cannot separate them and have saving faith.

Make no mistake, Paul agrees with James. After all, Galatians 2:9 says, “…and when they perceived the grace that was given to me, James and Cephas and John, who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship,…” The problem with Protestant interpretation of Paul is that the verses used to defend “faith alone” are stripped of the context of Paul’s message as well as having been stripped of the context of the gospels and the other writings of the NT.

If Paul meant and believed in “faith alone” he would have used those precise words just as James denies “faith alone” using those words. But Paul never says “faith alone” because that is not what he means. Moreover, if Paul meant and believed that we are saved by “faith alone”, he could not have said any of the following:

Romans: Chapter 2:6-8
For he will render to **every man ** according to his works:
to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.

Galatians: Chapter 5:19-26
Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. **I warn you, as I warned you ** before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
 
I will ask this question once again. Can a person be saved that does not love God?

Please answer using the scriptural verses that specifically talk about love in the plan of salvation. I would be most impressed if you can find a verse that says, in no uncertain terms, that we don’t need to love God. If you try to deny that we have to love God, I will supply you with the verses to the contrary.

But please, answer the question honestly and do so from scripture and not from your doctrinal premise of being saved by “faith alone.”
 
However, it is also easy to see that a mere intellectual belief in the teachings of Jesus does not sufficiently express the meaning of His words in Mark 1:15. When Jesus tells us to “believe the good news of the kingdom of God,” something more is implied. To believe the good news means to believe that salvation has indeed arrived for men–that through Jesus we are rescued from sin and death and made adopted children of God. Christ promised His followers that they would not die forever, but that He would raise them up on the last day. Belief that He spoke truly, i.e., trust in His promises, is also called Hope. This, then, is the second of the theological virtues, the second aspect of the belief in the good news. But there is still something missing. The good news of the kingdom, as preached by Jesus, also includes the moral law, summed up in the law of charity. If we truly believe the good news, we must have charity, or love: the third theological virtue. Thus Jesus says in Mt 22:37ff: “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. . . . You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two [commandments] the whole law and the prophets depend.” Later, He explains again what this love means (Jn 14:21): “He who keeps my commandments, and observes them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father . . . .” In other words, belief (faith in the narrow sense) is not enough. Hope is not enough. In order to receive the Father’s favor, we must love, and this includes keeping the commandments. As James says (Ja 2:26), “For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.”
 
Peace be with you!
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Pax:
Yaqubos,

This post applies to you not others. It is ironic that you put it up right after mine which quotes James. If you cannot see the direct refutation of your position by the apostle James, then you are the one that fails to see the obvious truth before you.
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Thank God, I believe what James has wrote by the Spirit. For I know that no one can have LIFE by doing good, but anyone who has LIFE does good! Doesn’t James write about LIVING faith, and say that the DEAD faith needs works???

You see, my friend? Let’s talk about LIFE, if we really have Life.

In Love,
Yaqubos†
 
Peace be with you!
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exrc:
May the lord bless you in abundance, I thank him for you with all my heart my dear brother! Keep up the good work buddy! Let Gods truth set them free of this new bondage they have created for themselves.

In love ex-catholic Dan!
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Dear brother, let’s pray for this together. I know many people who were in the bondage of Satan, and the Lord has given them LIFE and freedom from sin.

The fact is that our mission is not to call people out of their local churches. We believe that the Church of Christ is ONE, and not as Satan wants to show it.
But we call people out of DEATH to LIFE eternal. And in all churches of this earth, this is the truth that we read in our Bible.

In Love,
Yaqubos†
 
Peace be with you!
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javelin:
In the parable, there is a father (God/Jesus) with two sons. Both, by virtue of their sonship to their father, are destined to receive the Father’s inheritance (eternal life).
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Dear friend, this parable is not told just for Roman Catholics who think they have Life just because they are baptized. This parable is for all humans. So the father here is the Father ( God ). The two sons different kinds of humans who are God’s children because God created them all, although they are not really God’s children but Satan’s children ( as Jesus has called some Jews many times ).

If you think that all humans deserve eternal Life, then you are contradicting all the basic teachings of God.
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javelin:
One son, however, chooses to separate himself from his father and squanders his inheritance, which was freely given him by his father.
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And the other son also was separated from his father in his heart, although he didn’t leave him in body.
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javelin:
In doing so, he finds himself lost and in danger of death, and chooses to return to his father, repent (ask forgiveness).
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In danger of death? Not already dead? As you yourself say:
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javelin:
Yet, they must rejoice because the other son was dead, and now lives.
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javelin:
This is exactly the pattern of Christian life that we all lead. Once we are saved (baptized), we are made children of God, and are destined the inheritance that familial bond promises. However, we can turn from our Father through sin (which is the rejection of God), thereby taking that inheritance into our own hands where it will ultimately fail. We are then spiritually dead
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“Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Just as it is written,
“FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED.”
But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.
For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” ( Romans 8:35-39 )
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javelin:
While the first son will again inherit eternal life, we all strive to be the second, who had never forsaken his inheritance through obedience to his Father.
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Both sons have forsaken their father. One of them in his heart, the other in his heart and in his leaving in body.
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javelin:
Though he was not sinless (he did not come in to celebrate out of jealousy), his sin was not sufficiently grave to lose (or take into his own hands) his inheritance. For his perseverance, the father indicated that not only his share of the inheritance would be his, but all the father has (a side point, but interesting).
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“would be his”? Or “was his in principle, but he didn’t accept it”? My friend, do you think the Jews are still ALL OF THEM the chosen people of God? Do they need to believe in Jesus to have life?
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javelin:
So, can salvation be lost? According to this parable, YES.
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Anyone who is in Jesus is ONE with Him. Jesus, after having been raised from the dead, can He die again? God answers:

“knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.” ( Romans 6:9 )

In Love,
Yaqubos†
 
Peace be with you!
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beng:
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YAQUBOS:
*Peace!

Do you believe that you will be justified by the works of the Law?*
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Do you not believe God breathed scripture?
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“Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.” ( Romans 7:4 )

“because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.” ( Romans 3:20 )

The Law is God’s Word to give us knowledge of sin and our sinful nature.
After reading these passages, do you believe that you will be justified by the works of the Law?

In Love,
Yaqubos†
 
Peace be with you!
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beng:
Wait, are you saying that people who is judged according to their works will be thrown into the hades?

Are you kidding?

So the one on the book of life is not judged according to their works?

really?

Dear lord.
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Friend, I believe the following words of our Lord:

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.” ( John 5:24 )

Do you believe this?

In Love,
Yaqubos†
 
Peace be with you!
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javelin:
exrc,

I’m really curious about something that has never made sense to me concerning the general protestant position. Maybe you can help.

How do you relly know when/if you have been justified (born again), and thus unchangably destined for eternal life? If justification is a one-time, irreversible juridical act, then shouldn’t people know for certain when such a life-changing event has taken place?

I have been baptised, and prayed the sinner’s prayer with absolutely conscious sincerity. So is that it? Am I in?

javelin
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Friend, you don’t have to ask that question to a protestant. You can ask it to any child of God who has LIFE.

Does the dead know anything about his state? Does he know that he is dead?

But he who is alive, knows that he is alive!

If you repent and believe in Jesus Christ, and if you REALLY do this ( and not just to put a test before the children of God ), then you will have Life. And those who have Life, know that they have Life. It’s all by faith, my friend. How can you believe, when you still don’t believe??!!

In Love,
Yaqubos†
 
Peace be with you!
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beng:
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YAQUBOS:
*Peace be with you!

Do you believe that Jesus is ETERNAL God and that He REALY DIED?

What does it mean that GOD who NEVER DIES really DIED?

In Love,
Yaqubos†*
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I was refuting the erroneous protestant doctrine of substitunary atonement.
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And I was trying BY HIS GRACE to tell you that Jesus really atoned for us sinners.
 
Peace be with you!
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Pax:
I will ask this question once again. Can a person be saved that does not love God?
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Pax, I remember I answered this to you before, but it seems that you don’t want to believe.

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love” ( Galatians 5:22 )

The Spirit gives Life. Love is the fruit of the Spirit and not the cause to receive the Spirit of Life.

You ask: “Can a person be saved that does not love God?”.
And I ask you: Can a DEAD person love before he has Life by receiving the Holy Spirit?

In Love,
Yaqubos†
 
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javelin:
exrc,

I’m really curious about something that has never made sense to me concerning the general protestant position. Maybe you can help.

How do you relly know when/if you have been justified (born again), and thus unchangably destined for eternal life? If justification is a one-time, irreversible juridical act, then shouldn’t people know for certain when such a life-changing event has taken place?

I have been baptised, and prayed the sinner’s prayer with absolutely conscious sincerity. So is that it? Am I in?

javelin
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Hi Javelin!

Here’s where this idea falls apart for those who believe once saved always saved.

The born-again-once-saved-always-saved Christian maintains that if you accept Jesus Christ into your heart as your personal Lord and Savior that your salvation is assured, never to be lost. Of that you can be absolutely certain. However, if that born-again-once-saved-always-saved Christian has a crisis of faith, if he turns from the Lord and rejects him, well then that’s proof that he was never saved to begin with. So, even though the born-again-once-saved-always-saved Christian was absolutely certain at one point in his life that he WAS saved he actually wasn’t. Therefore, if he ever gets his life together and re-commits himself to Christ, he can’t be any more certain of his salvation the second time around than the was the first time.
 
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