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beng
Guest
Dude, WTH? LOL
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Catholic4aReasn
Guest
They both claim that we are justified by faith but never by faith alone.
That’s right! Those are the works that justify along with faith, the obedience of faith…faith working in love (Gal 5:6). I’m guessing from your comments that you’ve been mistaught the Catholic position on works.
Amen! And this is Catholic teaching, that we are justified by faith working in love. Living ones faith is the works that justify along with that faith.
In Christ,
Nancy
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exrc
Guest
mrS4ntA said:
2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods. --The catechism of the catholic church,para.2027
You were saying?
Talk about speaking from both sides of your mouth.
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mrS4ntA
Guest
Did you read what you posted yourself??
“No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion.”
I’m quite amused…
Oh, and a nice ad hominem attack too…
keep it up, my Protestant brother…Is it just me, or did you just deliberately ignore the paragraphs before that explaining “merit”? Here:
*With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.
The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man’s free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man’s merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit. *
-- Catechism of the Catholic Church, para. 2007-8.
You were saying?
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beng
Guest
exrc said:
Initial justification aided by grace is unmerited. Subsequent grace after initial justification is merited because of the work done.
Justification is a process.
Merit is both of God (more) and of men (less). God giving us reward for our merit is like God giving reward for His own action.
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mayra_hart
Guest
good works in sanctifying grace are necessary for salvation. 1cor.3:15- if works are unnecessary for salvation as many protestants believe, then why is a man saved ( not just rewarded ) throughfire by a judgment of his works? matt. 10:22,24:13;mark13:13- jesus taught that we must endure to the very end to be saved. if this is true, then how can protestants believe in the erroneous teaching of “once saved, always saved?” if salvation ocurred at a specific point in time when we accepted jesus as personal lord and savior, there would be no need to endure to the end. we should already be saved. santa maria madre de dios…amen
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YAQUBOS
Guest
Peace be with you!
RBushlow:
“For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.” ( Romans 3:28 )
And one of the examples of works of the Law:
“you shall love your neighbor as yourself” ( Leviticus 19:18 )
And we know that “For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”” ( Galatians 5:14 )
So we are saved from sin to have LIFE ( to live by Faith ). And thus we fulfill the Law by faith AFTER having life by faith NOT BEFORE having Life.
“Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.” ( Romans 3:31 )
Sin is: 1. Doing the bad we must not do. 2. Not doing all the good we must do.
So how can you do the good you must do without first being saved from sin and without having Life FIRST. Without Life, you are dead in sin, and you can’t do good deeds. When you are saved from sin, you have Life, and you do His Will IN CHRIST.
Jesus said:
“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.” ( John 5:25 )
Now is that time! Believe in Jesus and have LIFE! Those who believe, have Life, and their name is written in the Book of Life.
Jesus said:
“Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven.” ( Luke 10:20 )
Having Life means not being dead in sin. Not being dead in sin ( sin meaning also not doing the good we must do ) means doing good naturally ( “naturally” means in Christ, in the new nature given in the New Birth ).
In Love,
Yaqubos†
“THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.” ( Romans 1:17 )
“For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.” ( Romans 3:28 )
And one of the examples of works of the Law:
“you shall love your neighbor as yourself” ( Leviticus 19:18 )
And we know that “For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”” ( Galatians 5:14 )
So we are saved from sin to have LIFE ( to live by Faith ). And thus we fulfill the Law by faith AFTER having life by faith NOT BEFORE having Life.
“Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.” ( Romans 3:31 )
Sin is: 1. Doing the bad we must not do. 2. Not doing all the good we must do.
So how can you do the good you must do without first being saved from sin and without having Life FIRST. Without Life, you are dead in sin, and you can’t do good deeds. When you are saved from sin, you have Life, and you do His Will IN CHRIST.
Jesus said:
“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.” ( John 5:25 )
Now is that time! Believe in Jesus and have LIFE! Those who believe, have Life, and their name is written in the Book of Life.
Jesus said:
“Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven.” ( Luke 10:20 )
Having Life means not being dead in sin. Not being dead in sin ( sin meaning also not doing the good we must do ) means doing good naturally ( “naturally” means in Christ, in the new nature given in the New Birth ).
In Love,
Yaqubos†
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YAQUBOS
Guest
Peace be with you!
Pax:
Pax:
Pax:
Pax:
Pax:
Pax:
In Love,
Yaqubos†
In fact, I didn’t ask you if you can do good deeds without faith, but without LIFE ( although that comes after this ). In fact, those who don’t have Life are not doing good deeds at all, because what they think is good is in fact corrupted by their dead nature.
Ok. But you must FIRST have Life. You don’t get Life AFTER doing good deeds, but you do good deeds AFTER having Life. And how do you have Life? BY FAITH.
Halleluia! So Adam didn’t need to do good deeds to have life, but as he was not yet dead in sin, he was supposed to do good deeds NATURALLY. God didn’t promise him life for doing good. Adam could even eat from the tree of Life.
Thank you. This is just very beautiful. So God didn’t promise Adam life for doing good, but he told him that he will LOSE the life he ALREADY has if he disobeys. Really interesting.
Amen! Adam and Eve didn’t need to atone for their sin prior to the fall. We don’t need to atone for our sin after Jesus has atoned for it and brought us back to life, to a state even better than that of Adam.
What is sin in this case? Eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil? Well, in fact it is returning to the state of Adam by denying faith, and walking in the flesh. “whatever is not from faith is sin.” ( Romans 14:23 ). “But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.” ( Hebrews 10:39 )
In Love,
Yaqubos†
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YAQUBOS
Guest
Peace!
Catholic4aReasn:
In Love,
Yaqubos†
Read all my replies here if you have time.Your implication here is that what is clear to you is necessarily true. Do you have anything objective to support this claim?
Thanks!
In Christ,
Nancy
In Love,
Yaqubos†
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Noruk
Guest
Hello Yaqubost
Peace be with you
You are very correct that the those who don’t have the Holy Spirit are dead, and really don’t have the LIFE you are talking about, for Jesus said “I came so that you may have life and life in abundance” John 10:10. And the way we get this LIFE is through the working of the Holy Spirit.
However the reason none of the Catholics on this thread have answered your question on LIFE is that we already come from a point of view that says “we have this LIFE of God”. You see we’ve all been Baptised.
So I think you make an assumption that Catholics do not have this LIFE. Problem is mate we do. We believe that we received this LIFE you are speaking about in the Sacrament of Baptism. During which we received the gift of God Himself (the Holy Spirit) and we received the gift of grace and salvation, we are made right with God and we are accepted into the Family of God, we become part of the Body of Christ. This Gift of God is free and unmerited except through Jesus Christ our Lord and saviour, and thus is given to all who ask for it, infants get given this Gift through the Faith of their parents and the Faith of the Church.
The Sacrament of Confirmation is where we choose for ourselves the Gift we received at Baptism. And we welcome God, with an act of our will, into our lives again. These two Sacraments make up Baptism of Spirit and Water that Jesus was talking about with Nicodemus. Confirmation is the fulfilment / completion of Baptism.
So maybe you should rather say, you believe Catholics don’t have this LIFE from God and that is why our works and deeds are dead.
But if we have this Gift of LIFE and the Holy Spirit, and we believe we do, then what we DO has value because it comes from God Himself. Because nothing God does is without value.
You see, and please “listen” carefully, the Catholic church DOES NOT and has never believed in a doctrine of salvation by works alone. Individuals may have, but that’s another story. The corruption (selling of indulgences) that caused Martin Luther’s rebellion was cause by man’s greed. Which is a chronic human condition. And is still currently practised in major Protestant and Catholic churches everywhere. And for that, the Catholic church can ask for forgiveness. But so can anyone who has ever sinned.
I realise from your previous posts that you do not consider yourself protestant, but please realise that you have protestant doctrine.
Hope this clears up a few things for you Yaqubost.
God Bless you.
Jason
p.s. I think it is important for everyone to realise that Catholic and Protestant vocabulary has drifted away from each other and what we think words mean are not what the other side understands them to mean. Faith, works etc… if we want unity then my friends we need to start praying more earnestly. And be willing to listen to the meaning behind the words.
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CAtoIL
Guest
What is the Church interpretation of Romans 3:28?
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exrc
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Hello Yaqubost
Peace be with you
You are very correct that the those who don’t have the Holy Spirit are dead, and really don’t have the LIFE you are talking about, for Jesus said “I came so that you may have life and life in abundance” John 10:10. And the way we get this LIFE is through the working of the Holy Spirit
The Sacrament of Confirmation is where we choose for ourselves the Gift we received at Baptism. And we welcome God, with an act of our will, into our lives again. These two Sacraments make up Baptism of Spirit and Water that Jesus was talking about with Nicodemus. Confirmation is the fulfilment / completion of Baptism.
Jason
p.s. I think it is important for everyone to realise that Catholic and Protestant vocabulary has drifted away from each other and what we think words mean are not what the other side understands them to mean. Faith, works etc… if we want unity then my friends we need to start praying more earnestly. And be willing to listen to the meaning behind the words.
Code:
NORUK,You are missing YAQUBOS whole point which is why you were able to answer the question .While the other members are trying to avoid it or dance around it, because it would back them into a corner. Reason being if they already have life through unmeritable means (grace) 1996 CCC, why must they continue to merit something that by its very definition is unmeritable (grace) 2027 CCC? I must admire YAQUBOS for making you guys hold the nail steady so he can drive it home! The reason we non-catholics get all excited about you seemingly born-again catholics, is because we are concerned for the unsaved catholics who are being led down a garden path straight to hell. I was such a person until I listened to a very concerned christian man who pointed out my errors (a brave man he was). I was confused about things such as grace, salvation, works, etc...,and rightfully so from my one of many examples from the CCC above. Good for you , you have your salvation, but stop leading people back into the very thing that I was saved from and lost in.
NORUK I will now try to help you understand why you do not receive the second birth at infant water baptism.There are no clear examples of any infants being baptized anywhere in the N.T. This is clearly a catholic fantasy. More importantly however is that infants do not have intellect to **believe **
anything.
Scripture says clearly that it is your own personal belief, not your parents or anyone else. The danger is, that person eventually is led into a false sense of security. You can not argue with me on that point because I have been there done that!
In love ex-catholic Dan
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beng
Guest
That, it’s not Faith Alone.
CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by **faith alone ** the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.
CANON XII.-If any one saith, that **justifying faith ** is nothing else but confidence in the divine mercy which remits sins for Christ’s sake; or, that this confidence alone is that whereby we are justified; let him be anathema.
CANON XIV.-If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because that he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema.
CANON XIX.-If any one saith, **that nothing besides faith ** is commanded in the Gospel; that other things are indifferent, neither commanded nor prohibited, but free; or, that the ten commandments nowise appertain to Christians; let him be anathema.
CANON XXIX.-If any one saith, that he, who has fallen after baptism, is not able by the grace of God to rise again; or, that he is able indeed to recover the justice which he has lost, but by faith alone without the sacrament of Penance, contrary to what the holy Roman and universal Church-instructed by Christ and his Apostles-has hitherto professed, observed, and taugh; let him be anathema.
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Catholic4aReasn
Guest
Don’t your replies contain your personal interpretations of scripture? That’s not quite what I had in mind what I asked for something objective.Peace!
Read all my replies here if you have time.
In Love,
Yaqubos†
Have anything more objective than that?In Christ,
Nancy
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Catholic4aReasn
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But none of these say “faith alone” which is what was asked for.
In Christ,
Nancy
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BouleTheou
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beng3000
I am a Protestant.
BouleTheou
Interesting choice of words coming from someone who believes he will be justified on the basis of his own righteousness. Well, I mean, your own righteousness brought about with the infusion of God’s grace… This is the first time abbreviate profanity has been used against the truth here.
I am a Protestant.
BouleTheou
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beng
Guest
Would you prefer “nonsense”?
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RBushlow
Guest
Peace be with you also.Peace be with you!
RBushlow:
enough. Nowhere is Scripture does it say that you are saved by "faith alone". Of course you must have faith, but that is not all that scripture says. Hi Yaqubos, please show me in scripture, where it says that faith alone by itself gives you life. This is simply not in scripture. Thank you.
“THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.” ( Romans 1:17 )
“For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.” ( Romans 3:28 )
In Love,
Yaqubos†
I agree that faith is necessary as I originally stated. You’re not showing me that by faith alone will be saved. Thank you.
Yours in Christ
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BouleTheou
Guest
Just some class
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BouleTheou
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rbushlow -
Faith apart from works = faith alone.
BouleTheou
Faith apart from works = faith alone.
BouleTheou
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