The Real reason why one cannot be saved by faith alone.

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absolutely wrong, get over this fallacy about faith and works, its GRACE that begins salvation. But We all have grace, who doesnt? TELL me who OUR LORD does not GRACEFULLY call to the truth? GRACE is a free gift, but not santifying grace. FAITH and works with the spirit give you santifying grace. Only the lord can judge what that is. You recieve the spirit with baptism or the desire to be baptised, to believe otherwise is to accuse christ as a liar. However, once baptised, You can diminish the spirit with commiting sin, you can deminish grace, but you cannot remove grace altogether. Gods calls everyone, always, thats his gift of love to us. To lead us to the light. The Holy spirit cannot remain with sin though, it can only be renewed through contrition, confession, penance. This is why faith alone cannot be true. It would allow Gods grace and spirit to be wasted on those who bear no fruits. Futhermore, faith alone is a practical impossibility, unless you live in a vaccum or suspended animation. After The very first act you do, you totally destroy the possibility of faith alone. The act is good or bad, which way are you swinging?
 
QUOTE=SocaliCatholic]YAQUBOS, I wish I could agree with you wholeheartedly, but the problem is that every time you or I quote Scripture to answer a question, we are both assuming that we are interpreting it correctly.

I will agree with you to the point that if you or I were truly moved by the Holy Spirit, I am 100% sure that I would be able to interpret Scripture correctly God willing.

However that still leaves us with a problem. Just becuase you or I was moved by God for some unknown reason to interpret Scripture correctly, nobody else has to trust that you or I have interpreted Scripture correctly.
John 16:13-15 tells us that the Spirit within us will guide us into **all truth. **You are drawing from men whom you have put in authority over you. If you truly have the Spirit of God within you, you can draw on him. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying " know the Lord" for they all shall know me. Jeremiah 31:34

If the men and the Spirit disagree, the men are wrong.
Catholics believe that the Pope and Magesterium of the Church has the authority to interpret Scripture.
These are men.
Under Sola Scriptura or Bible Only, you have thousands or millions of people with no authority and conflicting interpretations, all believing that they have interpreted the Bible correctly.
You have that in the rcc also, just walk down the street and ask every professing catholic his opinion on anything about his faith and You’ll get a million different answers. This is because the Church is not an institution,but it is anyone who is born spiritually into Gods family. Those who are temples of the Holy Spirit.
You also have people with no authority arguing what books do and do not belong in the Bible.
Again, The Holy Spirit identifies his own writing and bares witness of that in the true believers.

There are plenty of people out there who think they are right but only the Spirit is right.

You will know when the Spirit is teaching you,if you are one of his.

In love, exrc!
 
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YAQUBOS:
beng… Islam IS teaching salvation by faith and good works under grace. Is it a shame to believe things like Muslims?..

A
Btw, give Quranic verses on that.

And Catholic is the one teaching salvation by grace alone.
 
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exrc:
beng,

That’s exactly what Roman Catholicism teaches. It just does it in a much fancier way. Like putting a silk hat on a swine.

No matter how much or how little you contribute to your own salvation it’s still decided in the end by you!

When will you see that?

In love , exrc
It is decided by God’s grace, which is unmerited. But still, that DOESN’T TAKE OUR FREE WILL. For that grace to work within us, we have to actively receive, and embrace, it!

Are you saying that Christ, by His Passion on the Cross, has turned Man into fleshy robots, unable to reject or receive His salvific work?

The Catholic teachings on “works” is therefore much, much different than the self-merited “works” that Islam teaches (it’s an ancient heresy the Church has rooted out, by the way). So there… stop putting words in our mouths. :mad:
 
exrc---------------------------:
I’m just in shock that you can seem to be truly saved and not, as I see it, understand the simplicity of the “good news”.

A-See, there is that word again “SEEM”. You haven’t asked me about my understanding of Salvation and the Gospel, so you can’t know that I do or do not understand it, right? Quick bio-raised Plymouth Brethren, my friend you cannot possibly be more PROTESTant than that, truly. Of course I am saved, Christ made that sacrifice for me…that’s a no-brainer and not even the topic of the thread if we are being honest here. I have spent more time in Bible studies than you can imagine, delving…searching, studying and praying over it…remember Plymouth Brethren are noted for their love of Scripture studies. So I made a very informed decision when I was an adult, and a rather advanced adult at that.

Q-Raised as an rc I experienced the whole deal . If you say all thats changed now. Thats my point! I see protestants becoming catholics and it blows my mind! You have no idea what your getting into.

A-I really appreciate your genuine concern, and I understand it I truly do. I am fully cognizant of the implications of my choice and have lost friends over it. However when you are truly seeking truth and you keep running into it within the Catholic faith…well 'nough said.

Roman Catholicism starts off with a false premise. Your born-again by WORKS ALONE and that not even your works,that is, water baptism by a priest.

A - I am so sorry that you have that deep a misunderstanding of what we believe…but you are in fact incorrect in your assumption there.

Next confirmation where you get to decide if you want to stick with this gig. When all you’re really thinking is how much money Aunt Stella is gonna pack in your envelope. While you have that false piety written all over your face.

A- Last thing on my mind was what I was receiving in any envelope…sorry that you experienced it that way…

Susan, R.C. is built on a false premise and it keeps getting worse.

A- In fact your premise is based on the (c’mon admit it) biased opinions that you have developed without examining the faith. Am I saved? You betcha! Do I work to endure to the end? Darn straight I do…Bible says that faith without works is dead faith…which I always knew as a young person. “Hmmmm, this OSAS deal is pretty good…get saved, live like hell, still get into Heaven. So I won’t have as many crowns to cast at His feet…I’m sure he’ll understand” Tell me honestly, does THAT sound like LIFE? Sounds like hedging your bets.

I now have peace with God because I am a son of God ,born into Gods family by Spirit of adoption . I have passed from death to life because I have believed on the one whom the the Father has sent. Never to be condemned for my sins, a free gift, not the bondage of religion which I had.

A- AMEN–me too! You’re more Catholic than you thought;)

Warmest regards, Susan
 
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exrc:
beng,

That’s exactly what Roman Catholicism teaches. It just does it in a much fancier way. Like putting a silk hat on a swine.

No matter how much or how little you contribute to your own salvation it’s still decided in the end by you!

When will you see that?

In love , exrc
exrc,

I gave you the benefit of the doubt earlier in that I thought you had not been properly discipled in your youth. I can no longer attribute your issues to that assumption alone after reading your post. There is nothing in Catholic teaching that supports the claims you just made. Morevover, Catholics on this thread have been telling you that your claim is erroneous and yet you persist.

This kind of thing is not simply born of ignorance. There is something a lot deeper at the core of your issues with the Church.

I will repeat the Catholic teaching on salvation one more time for your benefit. "We are saved by grace alone through the merits of Jesus Christ, by faith and works but not by "faith alone."

Please note Dan, that everything is dependent on God’s grace and the merits of Jesus Christ.

Our works are the crowning of the works of the Father’s hands in our hearts by the power of His grace.

Now please, once and for all drop the ridiculous claims that you make concerning Catholic teaching. Consider yourself informed and do not persist in distorting the facts and denigrating the truth.
 
No matter how many times I see it, I am constantly amazed at those who are not practicing Catholic Christians try to tell those who are what the Catholic Church really teaches.

Ignorance or misunderstanding? Yes I can understand that. But I am still amazed at the complete lack of ability to accept that a practicing Catholic might actually have explained it correctly.

Satan has a huge grip on these people.

Just for the record (again). Catholic do not believe we can earn our way to heaven. And the only place in the Bible that teaches about Faith alone tells us** we cannot be justified by faith alone**. (James 2:24). It’s in the Bible. Even Luther was unable to get Christians to throw that book out of the Bible.
 
The Myth of Eternal Security *
*“Once Saved, Always Saved” Refuted By Scripture & Philosophy
**

At least since the time of Jean Cauvin (1509-1564), commonly called John Calvin in English, some people professing belief in Christ as their Lord and Savior have embraced the idea that one can be justified before God here on earth once, and this justification is of such a nature that nothing–no action, no event, no sin–can possibly undo it. That is, once one has been “saved,” one cannot lose this salvation, and one is guaranteed Heaven forever. Any sort of righteous action is considered “adding on” to the “finished work of Christ,” and to admit that any sin could possibly undo this “salvation” is considered to be an admission that Christ’s redemptive act is insufficient or somehow dependent on us frail, sinful human beings.

It certainly is an attractive idea to think that one only has to pray a “sinner’s prayer” and can then sit back and relax, one’s salvation being guaranteed. In fact, believers in this doctrine of “eternal security” (sometimes referred to as the “perseverance of the saints”), and there are quite a few of them, often invite the “unsaved” who already profess belief in Christ with alluring lines like this:

Would you like to know perfect peace in Christ and rest for your soul? Would you like to experience a salvation that is sure and guaranteed? Would you like to believe in a Christ who has given His uttermost for you, paid the full penalty of sin for you and earned your entry into Heaven for you? This is the Christ of the Bible!

MARIO DERKSEN
 
Then the Protestant apologist will bombard you with Scripture verses that, allegedly, prove that our salvation is guaranteed and cannot be lost, once it has been obtained. Note first of all that these Protestants use the catching phrase of “would you like to…” or sometimes “wouldn’t you want to…” I think anybody can see that what we or I might possibly want is completely irrelevant. God doesn’t make the rules according to our personal desires. Many people would certainly want to be allowed to keep sinning and still go to Heaven–yet that “desire” hardly makes it so. In other words, the phrase “would you like to” should be a warning signal to any thinking Christian; what matters is not what *I *would like but what God would like and has decreed. Since when is theology and divine revelation fashioned according to man’s wants, after all?

The biblical “proof texts” these Protestants employ typically include Romans 8:29-30, 1 John 5:13, Romans 8:38-39, John 6:37, and John 10:28-29. Taken just by themselves, they may sound convincing, but let’s first remember that simply quoting Scripture is no great accomplishment. The devil himself, in tempting Our Lord, did the same thing. Each time Satan tried to trick the Lord through some twisted Scripture, Christ demonstrated it had been taken out of context, replying with another Scripture and its proper interpretation. Hence, when Protestants quote Scripture, we must check the context to see if it contradicts the authentic Scriptural message, that is, the interpretation and teaching of the Apostles and their successors, who have received sound doctrine from God Himself (cf. 2 Timothy 2:2, etc.).
 
At first, let’s look at the often-quoted verses in support of Calvinism’s “eternal security”:

Romans 8:29-30
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.

“See,” says the eternal-security believer, “it says here quite plainly that all those who are justified will be glorified. God predestines certain men to glory, and these He justifies. Thus, we can know that once we are justified, we will enter Heaven.” But is that so?

Not at all. First, we know that even though “many are called, [only] few are chosen” (Matthew 22:14). Eternal-security Protestants read this passage as if it said “those whom he called, he also predestined,” whereas, in truth, the passage says “those whom he predestined, he also called.” Let’s not confuse the cause with the effect.

Secondly, the most obvious contradiction to the eternal-security interpretation of Romans 8:29-30 is the fact that the passage is in the* past *tense. St. Paul does not say, “those whom God justifies, He *will *also glorify,” and he certainly doesn’t say, “those whom God justifies at one point, He will glorify eventually, no matter what.” Rather, it makes much more sense to recognize that Paul is probably talking about Christians who have already lived and died in a state of grace, and thus their predestination, calling, justification, and glorification is already completed. Why even mention that, one might wonder? Well, this assures “present believers on earth that if they are faithful, God can and will do the same for them” (Sungenis, Not By Faith Alone, p. 419, n.8). In fact, just a few verses earlier, St. Paul emphasizes that this is what he means: “If [we are] children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him” (Romans 8:17). So what does our glorification depend on? Our suffering with Him!

Thirdly, it seems obvious from even a marginal reading of Roman 8:29-30 that Paul is referring to the same body of people throughout his one sentence about predestination, calling, justification, and glorification. Those who were justified had also been called, Paul says, but that leaves enough room to admit of people who are justified but not called and hence fall away again. So the mere justification at one instant within one’s life means nothing. It does not guarantee glorification in Heaven, and Romans 8:29-30 does not state the contrary.

Thus, the text merely says that those who were predestined by God were also called by God, and those, then, were also justified by Him, and then glorified. Nowhere does this passage even remotely hint at the Protestant understanding that somehow anyone who is ever justified for a little while will necessarily remain such till his death. It only talks about particular predestined people who had died up to that point, that these people were predestined, called, justified, and eventually glorified. This will happen to all the predestined, but this doesn’t mean that everyone who is justified at one point will be glorified. It means that those who were called were eventually glorified–and that is an unchanging truth the Catholic Church has always affirmed. bless you all:)
 
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SusanG:
A-See, there is that word again “SEEM”. You haven’t asked me about my understanding of Salvation and the Gospel, so you can’t know that I do or do not understand it, right?
Quick bio-raised Plymouth Brethren, my friend you cannot possibly be more PROTESTant than that, truly. Of course I am saved, Christ made that sacrifice for me…that’s a no-brainer and not even the topic of the thread if we are being honest here. I have spent more time in Bible studies than you can imagine, delving…searching, studying and praying over it…remember Plymouth Brethren are noted for their love of Scripture studies. So I made a very informed decision when I was an adult, and a rather advanced adult at that

When were you saved Susan? Before RCC or after?.
A-I really appreciate your genuine concern, and I understand it I truly do. I am fully cognizant of the implications of my choice and have lost friends over it. However when you are truly seeking truth and you keep running into it within the Catholic faith…well 'nough said.
You’re welcome,
So then you know that I truly am concerned for you! If you truly are saved then I am not concerned for your salvation even if you decided to become a Jehovahs witness. But, for those who aren’t, and see you as an example. I am concerned for.

.
A- In fact your premise is based on the (c’mon admit it) biased opinions that you have developed without examining the faith. Am I saved? You betcha! Do I work to endure to the end? Darn straight I do…Bible says that faith without works is dead faith…which I always knew as a young person. “Hmmmm, this OSAS deal is pretty good…get saved, live like hell, still get into Heaven. So I won’t have as many crowns to cast at His feet…I’m sure he’ll understand” Tell me honestly, does THAT sound like LIFE? Sounds like hedging your bets.
That’s funny, since I got saved I never felt like living like hell, maybe that is what the master meant by “my laws shall be written in their hearts and in their minds”.Jer.31:33 Sin repulses me. Is that the way you felt when you were a PROTESTant. If not, maybe there was something wrong?
A- AMEN–me too! You’re more Catholic than you thought;)
You’re right, I AM truly catholic, as catholic as you can get . So what does that make you?

I am a universal church priest of the royal priesthood who is able to loose those of their sin by sharing the gospel with them.
AMEN!!!

Warmest regards, Susan
And to you also, my beloved sister in Christ Jesus!!!
 
you guys dont see? If we really have faith, it means we believe what God has said is true. Listen Jesus was the Word of God, and the word of God is faithful. We must believe that God is faithful to His word. Jesus said he would die so that sins may be forgiven. He died to free us from a yoke of slavery. Now we are free to do waht He says. No one can please God without faith(Hebrews 11;6)
Jesus told us to love and to serve one another, among other things. But what is asked of us is pretty darn simple. Love the Lord your God with all your heart,all your mind strength and soul, and to love one another as yourself.

Romans 1;17
"This good news tells us how God makes us right in his sight. This is accompplished from start to finish by faith. As the scriptures say, “It is through faith that a righteous person has life.”

Hebrews 12;1 "Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a huge crowd of witnesses to the life of faith, let us strip off eveyr weight that slows us down, especially the sin that so easily hinders our progress. And let us run with endurance the race that God has set before us. We do this by keeping our eyes on Jesus, on whom our faith depends from start to finish.

And it must be remembered that we fallm short. I sure do. Sometimes i get caught up in my feelings and this or that( and im still an infant in my faith) and i lost faith. But i keep going to the Lord, and even though i lose faith
2 Timothy 2;13
“If we are unfaithful,
he remains faithfuk,
for he cannot deny Himself.”

remember what Jesus said about faith, even if you had faith the size of a mustard seed…you could do anything…but not faith in your faith or faith in your wisdom or strength…FAITH IN GOD…AND HIS WORD! Now check it, Jesus is infiniteley faithful. In fact in revelation He is the one named Faithful.
Im not going to go on. I just hope we stop arguing and start loving one another.
yours in Christ
~Matt
 
heh its pretty simple what the Lord wants. We complicate things for our own selfish ambitions/

Micah 6;8 “No O people, the Lord has already told you what is good, and this is what he requires: to do what is right, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God”

Its simple…Im teling you, with Christ in your heart, it is going to be hard not to want to do good deeds. But first you gotta have faith.
Amen…
 
Peace be with you!
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RMP:
Christ chose Peter himself to affirm THE HOLY SPIRIT, why do you deny it? He commands PETER to tend, feed and RULE his flock. I guess you arent in the flock yet, or are you? This is the authority on this great planet of ours, The APOSTLOIC Tradition.
Who says that Christ chose Peter?

In Love,
Yaqubos†
 
Peace be with you!
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RBushlow:
So, you mean that it must be correct because you have the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Right?
It IS correct even if I don’t understand it! The Truth of God doesn’t depend of humans like me.

In Love,
Yaqubos†
 
Peace be with you!
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beng:
I lived around Islamic culture for 10+ years.

Islam believe that wehn you get to Heaven there will be a scale. Your good deeds and bad deeds will be weighted. If the good outweight the bads then you go to Heaven. If it’s otherwise, you go to hell.
It’s not so simple. For according to them, the value of some works can be multiplied because they are done in good faith and because of the grace of God.

Muslims believe that you are saved because God gives you that grace, and because you respond to that grace by believing and doing good deeds. Isn’t this what you believe?

By the way: Muslims believe that Hell is not eternal for all humans. Some can go there and purge their sins, and then go again to heaven… Does this look like Purgatory?..

In Love,
Yaqubos†
 
Peace be with you!
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beng:
I lived around Islamic culture for 10+ years.

Islam believe that wehn you get to Heaven there will be a scale. Your good deeds and bad deeds will be weighted. If the good outweight the bads then you go to Heaven. If it’s otherwise, you go to hell.
And you say that we will be judged by our works. What is it to be judged by our works?

In Love,
Yaqubos†
 
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exrc:
You will know when the Spirit is teaching you,if you are one of his.

In love, exrc!
Then why do so many OSAS and Bible-Only Christians get into disagreements? Why are there over 35,000 protestant denominations??

God Bless
 
Peace be with you!
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beng:
Btw, give Quranic verses on that.

And Catholic is the one teaching salvation by grace alone.
Look what the Qur’an says:

“Show us the straight way, The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray.” ( 1:6-7 )

“But ye turned back thereafter: Had it not been for the Grace and Mercy of Allah to you, ye had surely been among the lost.” ( 2:64 )

“O ye of Faith! Say not (to the Messenger) words of ambiguous import, but words of respect; and hearken (to him): To those without Faith is a grievous punishment. It is never the wish of those without Faith among the People of the Book, nor of the Pagans, that anything good should come down to you from your Lord. But Allah will choose for His special Mercy whom He will - for Allah is Lord of grace abounding.” ( 2:104-105 )

“To those who believe and do deeds of righteousness hath Allah promised forgiveness and a great reward.” ( 5:9 )

If you read Arabic, I would quote them in Arabic, because that would be clearer ( translation is not exactly what is said in the verse ).

You say Catholicism teaches Salvation by grace alone, and yet you agree with Muslims about the fact that you are saved by faith AND works, i.e. you have LIFE by faith and works, and you agree with them that you are judged according to your works.

In Love,
Yaqubos†
 
Peace be with you!

Friends, I understand what you want to say about Roman teachings. I understand that you say you believe in salvation by grace alone, by faith and works. I understand that you want to insist on the fact that if you don’t do good deeds your faith is dead.

But the thing you are not understanding is that we are not talking about that DEAD faith of Satan!

We are talking about having LIFE by the LIVING faith. Why are you underestimating LIFE? If you have LIFE, this means you LIVE! Did you ever see someone asking a living to live???

When you say Salvation is by faith and works, it’s like saying you have Life by believing and having Life…
If you have Life, this means you LIVE. Do you know what’s the meaning of being spiritually ALIVE? It means to do deeds of righteousness flowing from the Spirit living in you!

Believe in Jesus, and you have LIFE. Then tell me if you will like to sin… if you don’t want to do good deeds…

In Love,
Yaqubos†
 
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