The Real reason why one cannot be saved by faith alone.

  • Thread starter Thread starter Richard_Lamb
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
It is 100% grace, but we are free to refuse GOD. The Devil was offered the same choice as we have. GOD was freely offering salvation to 1/3 angles in heaven. Satan rejected. For whatever reason, pride, you name it, doesnt change it. When in the grace of GOD, HE wants our mind, body, and soul. NOT just our faith. CHRIST gave him his mind, body , and soul, and now CHRIST intercedes for our weaknesses.

YAQUBUS appears more Islamic to me than protestant.
 
40.png
YAQUBOS:
Peace be with you!

Yes, in fact, the deep things of the Lord cannot be understood by the curious who don’t have the Spirit:

“But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one.
For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.” ( 1 Corinthians 2:14-16 )

Praise the Lord! For He sent His Spirit and made us ALIVE!

In Love,
Yaqubos†
Click to expand...
Really! then I am assuming thats why you don’t believe God when he says:

James 2:24
Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?
 
40.png
RMP:
It is 100% grace, but we are free to refuse GOD. The Devil was offered the same choice as we have. GOD was freely offering salvation to 1/3 angles in heaven. Satan rejected. For whatever reason, pride, you name it, doesnt change it. When in the grace of GOD, HE wants our mind, body, and soul. NOT just our faith. CHRIST gave him his mind, body , and soul, and now CHRIST intercedes for our weaknesses.

YAQUBUS appears more Islamic to me than protestant.
Click to expand...
It’s really tricky. And this would be one of the ultimate mistery that will only bereveal when we’re in full communion with God. Or maybe not even than. God is the ultimate truth and he is ultimately perfect, while men are not. Thus there’s a point where we just wouldn’t be able to understand what he is or how he thinks.

We can not REALLY say that it’s 100% grace because that would eradicate Free Will (altho thomism would ALMOST agree to this). So in a somewhat flawed and imperfect anlogy, it could be 99.9999999999% grace and 0.0000000001% Free Will.
 
No. I disagree. We cannot stop GOD from giving us something, but we can freely choose to reject it. We receive his grace 100% freely. Problem is, we arent to good about keeping it, hence the church and sacraments as instruments to keep us in grace. The OT is proof of that. how many times did Isreal blow it?
 
40.png
RMP:
No. I disagree. We cannot stop GOD from giving us something, but we can freely choose to reject it. We receive his grace 100% freely. Problem is, we arent to good about keeping it, hence the church and sacraments as instruments to keep us in grace. The OT is proof of that. how many times did Isreal blow it?
Click to expand...
It appears that the act of using our free will to recieve God’s grace must not be classified as a work since it is freely given by God. All we have to do is recieve it. It is the first step for us to be able to share God’s love with others through works.

Our free will remaining a gift from God is unchanged, but now that we have recieved God’s grace, when we freely do works from that grace they are works of faith and sanctifying grace.

Choice to recieve God’s love =/= works

Choice to share God’s love with others = works
 
40.png
RMP:
No. I disagree. We cannot stop GOD from giving us something, but we can freely choose to reject it. We receive his grace 100% freely. Problem is, we arent to good about keeping it, hence the church and sacraments as instruments to keep us in grace. The OT is proof of that. how many times did Isreal blow it?
Click to expand...
God does not forced the grace upon us. We could freely rejected it. That is why we need to ACCEPT that grace. We need to COOPERATE with said grace. Again, even this cooperation is illuminated by grace. BUT there’s a very small part that is still ours, and that would be the Free Will part.
 
Council of Orange II

“[G]race is preceded by no merits. A reward is due to good works, if they are performed, but grace, which is not due, precedes [good works], that they may be done” (Canons on grace 19 [A.D. 529]).
 
SocaliCatholic said:
Council of Orange II

“[G]race is preceded by no merits. A reward is due to good works, if they are performed, but grace, which is not due, precedes [good works], that they may be done” (Canons on grace 19 [A.D. 529]).
Click to expand...

This Canon does not deny the Free Will part.

As I have said, this is one of those mistery that just can not be solved. There are only some ground rules:
  1. Human have Free Will
  2. Without God’s grace we can not attain salvation
  3. This grace is unmerited.
  4. Even the grace directed our Free Will into accpetance of said grace. But this doesn’t make the Free Will cease to be Free Will.
 
Think of grace as you wake up in the morning, u have it. Now that you have it, what do you do the rest of the day. You didnt merit it, GOD gave it to you. That is why I expalined NATURAL grace. We were created through GODs grace. At one time we did not exist, by grace GOD made us exist. GRACE. At baptism, we receive Santifying GRACE, freely. True, but a mystery. An adult may be drawn to this gift, but a child is brought to the gift. The GRACE is FREE, unmerited. We recieve the promise of salvation at baptism. The church ceremony only reminds us what we are recieving at the sacrament. Have you forgotten?
It appears that the act of using our free will to recieve God’s grace must not be classified as a work since it is freely given by God
Click to expand...
Read this passages on grace:
“Not as if we are sufficient to THINK anything of oursleves, as ourselves: but our sufficiency is from GOD” We are actually INCAPABLE of meriting grace.
“I have planted, Apollo watered, but GOD gave the increase.” we are can do nothing, GOD gives us an increase in grace. "
“No man can come to me except by the Father, who hath sent me, draw him.”
Our free will has nothing to do with it at first.
 
I never said that Free Will is or isn’t work.

RMP, do you deny that human have Free Will?
 
40.png
RMP:
Read this passages on grace:
“Not as if we are sufficient to THINK anything of oursleves, as ourselves: but our sufficiency is from GOD” We are actually INCAPABLE of meriting grace.
“I have planted, Apollo watered, but GOD gave the increase.” we are can do nothing, GOD gives us an increase in grace. "
“No man can come to me except by the Father, who hath sent me, draw him.”
Our free will has nothing to do with it at first.
Click to expand...
I’m not sure if we are in agreement or disagreement, but here is my take on it:

By the grace of God we have physical blessings, but by our own free will we can choose not to eat, or not to breathe. By our own free will we can accept or refuse those FREE gifts.

Our free will, our choice to choose, by its very nature was created and is sustained by God, but it is still a choice!

We have no choice to not have choice! You have to make a choice!

By the grace of God we have been Justified through Christ Jesus, but through our own free will we do not have to accept this free gift. By our own free will we can accept or refuse the grace of Justification through Christ Jesus.
 
I do not deny it. I have free will. And I submit my free will to the teachings of the catholic church, or at least im trying to do this to the best of my ability. In doing so I feel it is a submition to GOD himself. All my mind, body and soul.
 
I may see the problem, I view the gift as HAS BEEN GIVEN ALREADY, freely. I react to what I already have freely. YOU seem to say, you never got grace without permission and response. Look at MARY. Although GOD asked her to cooperate during her life, when she said FIAT. She had already recieved GRACE immaculately at birth w/o cooperation. unmerited. It was just given to her in anticipation. She already had FULLNESS OF GRACE when she accepted the invitation of GOD.
 
40.png
RMP:
I may see the problem, I view the gift as HAS BEEN GIVEN ALREADY, freely. I react to what I already have freely. YOU seem to say, you never got grace without permission and response. Look at MARY. Although GOD asked her to cooperate during her life, when she said FIAT. She had already recieved GRACE immaculately at birth w/o cooperation. unmerited. It was just given to her in anticipation. She already had FULLNESS OF GRACE when she accepted the invitation of GOD.
Click to expand...
Right okay then there was no disagreement, we were saying the same thing in diffrent ways. I brought up the “no choice to freely choose” to clarify any misunderstanding.

I view free will as the ability to trust and accept or reject God’s love, which is expressed in different ways, the greatest being Jesus death on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins.

That free will is rewarded with sanctifying grace when we do works under God’s justifying grace.
 
40.png
RMP:
I may see the problem, I view the gift as HAS BEEN GIVEN ALREADY, freely. I react to what I already have freely. YOU seem to say, you never got grace without permission and response. Look at MARY. Although GOD asked her to cooperate during her life, when she said FIAT. She had already recieved GRACE immaculately at birth w/o cooperation. unmerited. It was just given to her in anticipation. She already had FULLNESS OF GRACE when she accepted the invitation of GOD.
Click to expand...
Her Fiat is being the Mother of God, which she did not realize until Gabriel announced it to her. If she realized her destiny since the start than why was she surprised about the announcment?

Of course you will never have the grace if you do not accept it. (again I wil always point out that even our acceptance is illuminated by grace).
 
As for us, we believe that the blood of Jesus Christ is enough to give us Life.

How very true! Amen! This of course is exactly what the Catholic Church Teaches and has always taught in agreement with the teachings of Jesus in the Gospels, the Epistles and the Apostolic Tradition.
One drop of Christs infinitely valuable blood can save an infinite number of souls and cover an infinite number of sins, no matter how deadly or vile.
And the Church teaches we are saved by grace and cannot earn our salvation, no matter how good we are.
However, the sufficiency of Christs Blood, which I capitalize to emphasize that all of Christ was both human and divine, is not at issue. If sufficiency where the issue, then we might just as well be universalists and proclaim all are elect, irrespective of faith or works.
We are certainly not saved by Faith alone, because if it is alone it is not true faith. It is merely an interior opinion. Faith is the whole duty of cooperating with God’s grace. And as we cooperate, God in his generocity energizes us to obey His Law: NOT THE DEAD WORKS OF THE CEROMONIAL OLD COVENANT BUT THOSE WORKS DESCRIBED BY CHRIST HIMSELF IN HIS MERCY COMMANDS!
***Have you ever read Matt 5-7? Have you read 1 Cor 13? Have you ever done a word study on LOVE! ***
Mercy and love are not optional. Read the Judgement of the Sheep and the Goats in Matt 25.
Your charge is false and worse a slur. Catholics do not diminish the sufficiency of Christs Holy Blood! We more than any treasure it! We literally drink it and recieve abundant graces that help us be His Body in the World.
Nor do try to bribe God with good deeds.
No where does Jesus teach your doctrine. Jesus absolutely commands us to love and do the work of mercy, which we can only do through His grace.
I wish you all His Grace, Peace and Kindness,
Steve
 
Of course you will never have the grace if you do not accept it
Click to expand...
I still disagree with this accessment. You presume acceptance before reception, That is not the case with Marys immaculate conception or natural grace as viewed in the CAtholic church. You may make this case however with the santifying grace we recieve at baptism, “renounce sin, satan, ect.” as being a reception of grace BY an act of free will. But babes, when they recieve this GRACE do not act freely, it is barrowed from the parents.
2 conditions of baptism:
GRACE given to BABES by consent of parents, or Grace by consent of will of the adult.

My only point was MARY had santifying GRACE when she responded to GABRIEL. It was umerited by any action on her part. She continued in that Grace when she submited her entire will to GODs will. Her surprise was a true act of humility, the effect of her GOD given GRACE.
 
40.png
RMP:
I still disagree with this accessment. You presume acceptance before reception, That is not the case with Marys immaculate conception or natural grace as viewed in the CAtholic church. You may make this case however with the santifying grace we recieve at baptism, “renounce sin, satan, ect.” as being a reception of grace BY an act of free will. But babes, when they recieve this GRACE do not act freely, it is barrowed from the parents.
2 conditions of baptism:
GRACE given to BABES by consent of parents, or Grace by consent of will of the adult.

My only point was MARY had santifying GRACE when she responded to GABRIEL. It was umerited by any action on her part. She continued in that Grace when she submited her entire will to GODs will. Her surprise was a true act of humility, the effect of her GOD given GRACE.
Click to expand...
I disagree that Mary’s Immaculate Conception can not be rejected IN THE VERY STRICT AND TECHNICAL SENSE… God. by his infinite wisdom KNOWS that Mary will accept it.

Now, because of this, we dwelved into infant’s faith. Since an infant “can not” accept or reject baptism, and since we believe that when a person is baptized he/she is justified, does it mean that infant can not reject grace?

This require a rather complex explanation. I will do so after I get into my mouth and read some more.

Hold on to that thought
 
40.png
RMP:
I still disagree with this accessment. You presume acceptance before reception, That is not the case with Marys immaculate conception or natural grace as viewed in the CAtholic church. You may make this case however with the santifying grace we recieve at baptism, “renounce sin, satan, ect.” as being a reception of grace BY an act of free will. But babes, when they recieve this GRACE do not act freely, it is barrowed from the parents.
2 conditions of baptism:
GRACE given to BABES by consent of parents, or Grace by consent of will of the adult.

My only point was MARY had santifying GRACE when she responded to GABRIEL. It was umerited by any action on her part. She continued in that Grace when she submited her entire will to GODs will. Her surprise was a true act of humility, the effect of her GOD given GRACE.
Click to expand...
Ok I believe I can solve this problem with a technical distinction.

Infant Baptism is a gift of grace from God through the gift of grace of the free will consent and cooperation of the parents who are choosing to cooperate with the grace of God through the Sacrament.

Other than no choice in the fact that we were created, everything after that point comes from a choice to choose or not choose God.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top