The Real reason why one cannot be saved by faith alone.

[Pax]

beng:

Pax,

Francisca has said that she is Catholic elsewhere. isn’t that surprising?

beng,

That certainly is news to me!

 

[francisca]

Pax:

beng,

That certainly is news to me!

You people of knowledge but refuse to understand.

John Paul II quoted Jesus saying : “Rise, let us be on our way”

He said that we shall not be overcome by the spirit of fear (of errors), but to trust God totally just like Jesus who was about to be crucified said to His disciples “Rise, let us be on our way”, so we must let God lead us to the place where only Him know. This is what JP II said to his episcopates.

Trust God in Jesus totally, surrender to His hand, that is what the present pope instruct us. Follow his pastoral guidance!

You who insist on obedience, listen to what God has promised you, and believe it with an obedient heart. This is what obedience means : that you obey your faith in Jesus. This is what it means to be the children of obedience : believe God in Jesus Christ.

Stop thinking about “politics” and don’t ever think about “how we win the arguments against the protestants”. God does not care about any of these things. His purpose is salvation of souls. Purify your thoughts then start to re-read what the church is trying to teach us in Vatican II documents.

God bless.

 

[RBushlow]

!

I think we just need to pray for francisca, exrc, YAQUOBOS, etc. They are clearly not here to seek the Truth, and they refuse to hear when it is presented to them. We can only sow the seeds, it is the Holy Spirit who will touch them if they do not harden their hearts.

Pax Christi

 

[beng]

francisca:

You people of knowledge but refuse to understand.

John Paul II quoted Jesus saying : “Rise, let us be on our way”

He said that we shall not be overcome by the spirit of fear (of errors), but to trust God totally just like Jesus who was about to be crucified said to His disciples “Rise, let us be on our way”, so we must let God lead us to the place where only Him know. This is what JP II said to his episcopates.

Trust God in Jesus totally, surrender to His hand, that is what the present pope instruct us. Follow his pastoral guidance!

You who insist on obedience, listen to what God has promised you, and believe it with an obedient heart. This is what obedience means : that you obey your faith in Jesus. This is what it means to be the children of obedience : believe God in Jesus Christ.

Lord, Give Success to Work of Our Hands
Homily for Jubilee of Workers
Pope John Paul II, May 1, 2000

4. Dear workers, our meeting is illumined by the figure of Joseph of Nazareth and by his spiritual and moral stature, as lofty as it is humble and discreet. The promise of the Psalm is fulfilled in him: “Blessed is every one who fears the Lord, who walks in his ways. You shall eat the fruit of the labour of your hands; you shall be happy, and it shall be well with you… Thus shall the man be blessed who fears the Lord” (127:1-2, 4). The Guardian of the Redeemer taught Jesus the carpenter’s trade, but above all he set him the* most valuable example** of what Scripture calls the “fear of God”, the very beginning of wisdom, which consists in religious submission to him and in the deep desire to seek and always carry out his will. This, dear friends, is the true source of blessing for every person, for every family and for every nation.*

Catechism of the Catholic Church

2084 God makes himself known by recalling his all-powerful loving, and liberating action in the history of the one he addresses: “I brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.” The first word contains the first commandment of the Law: "You shall fear the LORD your God; you shall serve him. . . . You shall not go after other gods." God’s first call and just demand is that man accept him and worship him.

2217 … As they grow up, children should continue to respect their parents. They should anticipate their wishes, willingly seek their advice, and accept their just admonitions. Obedience toward parents ceases with the emancipation of the children; not so respect, which is always owed to them. This respect has its roots in the fear of God, one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Stop thinking about “politics” and don’t ever think about “how we win the arguments against the protestants”. God does not care about any of these things. His purpose is salvation of souls. Purify your thoughts then start to re-read what the church is trying to teach us in Vatican II documents.

God bless.

Protestant taught gospel that is anathema to the faith (Gal 1:8-9) They need to be saved from damnation. Vatican II documents encourage us to convert them to the true faith.

You’re one stubborn person. You have been given all the information of the true Catholic faith which you have embrace yourselves, but you have ignored the wisdom given. We feel like throwing what is Holy to dog (Mat 7:6). You persist in your error and continue to idolized your own gospel. You do not take heed to the truth.

Your ignorance shall be your condemnation that you have always fear.

 

[SocaliCatholic]

francisca:

Stop thinking about “politics” and don’t ever think about “how we win the arguments against the protestants”.

I used to be one.

I am so thankful for Catholic Answers. I wish Catholic Answers had a forum back then before I converted to get answers from people like Pax, beng, StSteverino, mayra hart, Sirach14, RMP, and RBushlow who cared and put much love and care into explaining Christ’s Church: the Catholic Church.

God does not care about any of these things.

Actually God does. If God didn’t I’d still be protestant.

His purpose is salvation of souls. Purify your thoughts then start to re-read what the church is trying to teach us in Vatican II documents.
God bless.

Reading Papal Encyclicals and Church documents helped bring me home to the Catholic Church.

God Bless You Too.

 

[francisca]

Pax:

QUOTE=francisca
The difference between the “saved” and the “unsaved” is :

The saved knows God’s Mercy, and they have been living in that Mercy. So they say “All I do is to keep my trust in Him who has saved me, and because of this I am crowned with good works that I do in that grace, and on top of all these I have received blessings for the good works I have done. He has given me His joy so that I rejoice even in difficult times, because He uphold and carry me in His mighty hand. Praise His Holy Name”.

But the “unsaved” would say “God is just (read: holy). There is noway sinners can escape His justice. Therefore-- eventhough I believe that He is good, yet-- I need to work hard so that God has no reason to condemn me. He is just. God is great !!! Full of compasion and merciful indeed. Yet, He will judge me according to my work. Alas!!! I forgot to go to mass yesterday. Look at that girl, how come she wear such clothes to mass. O where was I? Ah yes now I remember : we need to go to mass every Sunday. That’s an obligation !”

Francisca,

After all that has been pointed out to you over numerous posts, you, nevertheless, persist in mispresenting Catholics, and you make a point of saying that we are not saved.

Your first paragraph sounds very Catholic but your second paragraph accuses Catholics of something that is not true.

Did I say “you are not saved” ?

If you say that my fist paragraph is very catholic, then why you say that I say catholics are of the second ?

I was only comparing the “saved” from the “unsaved” as to show how they live and how their works are.

Moreover, you belittle the obligation of going to mass. Let’s examine that just a little.

This is your own percenption.

I believe that the sacraments are holy. However, knowing that God is total goodness makes me think that there is noway that sacraments can work well with condemnations. There are many mistakes on how grace is administered in the church. All condemnations to believers are in direct opposition to Paul’s teaching that “there should be no more condemnations for those who are in Christ Jesus”. For Jesus has set us free. Let the law condemn sin alone, but not sinners who believe.

Suppose I don’t go to mass, I am condemned. Then I come. But I do not know whether I come because I believe or because I am afraid of condemnation. Sure fear of God is the begining of wisdom. But what about “growing in faith”. Does this term “growing in faith” is also full of “our own faithfulness” or, rather, “knowing God’s faithfulness” ?

We know from the New Testament that as Christians we become adopted sons and daughters and are members of the household of God. As such we are, as Paul points out, heirs and we will receive the inheritance of salvation. Now for the moment go back to the OT and notice how Esau forfeited his inheritance for a pot of stew.

Sure… sure… religion is God’s tool too. I am not agaist religion. I am against serving religion. The true religion should teach the people to serve God and God alone. God who is love who is merciful.

Religion does not have any value should it becomes mere burden but does not administer grace : that is freedom from sins.

It is just as it says in Hebrews 10:28-30, "A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?

If you focus on your own work, then your gospel is about punishments. If you focus on God, then your gospel is about freedom from punisments : forgiveness of sins because of Jesus. The latter is called “the Good News” !

May God bless you Pax

 

[francisca]

Beng, you quotes so many.

Just explain to me Trent’s canon 12 on Justification

May God bless you Beng.

 

[mrS4ntA]

francisca:

Beng, you quotes so many.

Just explain to me Trent’s canon 12 on Justification

May God bless you Beng.

SIXTH SESSION, CANONS CONCERNING JUSTIFICATION: “If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ’s sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA” (Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 12).

pretty straight forward, don’t you think?

“Rome has spoken, the case is closed!”

 

[mrS4ntA]

Oh, let’s not forget these:

SIXTH SESSION, CANONS CONCERNING JUSTIFICATION: “If anyone says that the justice received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works, but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of its increase, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA” (Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 24).

SIXTH SESSION, CANONS CONCERNING JUSTIFICATION: “If anyone says that the Catholic doctrine of justification as set forth by the holy council in the present decree, derogates in some respect from the glory of God or the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ, and does not rather illustrate the truth of our faith and no less the glory of God and of Christ Jesus, LET HIM BE ANATHEMA” (Canons Concerning Justification, Canon 33).

Now the question is, are you (sisca) ready to be anathematised?

“Rome has spoken, the case is closed!”
Pax Christi,

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

Pax:

Yaqubos,

You have done nothing to establish your points in the way of facts. You are wrong about who was teaching errors and when. “Faith alone” is a doctrine made up from whole cloth by a man named Martin Luther and was never believed by the Christian Church.

If you want to make claims as to what teachings were borrowed by Islam that were errors and which were not than you’ve got a lot of historical work to do and you have to lay out a careful case. I would suggest you do this research because it will force you to learn the “constant” teaching of the church since the time of Christ. You work from an erroneous doctrinal premise in all of your arguments. You do not work from scripture first. That is why all of your points about faith alone have been soundly refuted from scripture. You, nevertheless, cling to this teaching because it is your doctrinal premise upon which you attempt to attach certain verses of scripture.

Pax, did you do anything to establish your claim when you said that Islam borrowed from Roman Church because that is the true Christianity?

What I did is just an explanation on the doctrines of Islam that are in a close accordance with the teachings of beng.

And when you made opposition, I explained to you how Islam COULD borrow from wrong teachers although those teachers are NOT the true Church. And I added a N.B. if you remember:

YAQUBOS:

By the way: we can’t just say that Muhammad just borrowed things from others. I think there was a certain bad spirit behind all this that is still working today, as always, in the children of desobediance.

Disobedience*

So it is you who SUPPOSED that Muhammad borrowed from Roman teachings. I just said that your teachings are in a close accordance with Islam teachings.

N.B.: we don’t need to say that Salvation is by faith ALONE. Saying it is by Faith or “from faith to faith” ( Romans 1:17 ) is enough. Protestants needed to say ALONE because of the corruption of the Roman church in those times.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

RBushlow:

Peace be with you also.

Yaqobos my dear brother in Christ, you are espousing protestant doctrines, not Catholic and not Orthodox. There are others, or course, such as Jehova’s Witness and Mormons, but you don’t seem to be declaring their teachings, so it is only natural to think of you as protestant. If you believe the protestant doctrines, then you are protestant.

Yours in Christ.

You suppose all this because you think this was FIRST believed with the protestants. But in fact this was the teaching of the Church in the first centuries, and this was believed by many before Martin Luther. And those who believed the Bible were persecuted by the Romans.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

beng:

First of all, it’s the mistery of God’s predestination and free will. I would not say it’s 100% grace but I can not say also that it’s not 100%.

Because there’s a slight element of free will that makes us cooperate with that grace in order for us to properly answer that grace. And even this cooperation is also illuminated by grace.

Which are the verses which shows that without grace man can’t direct himself properly to God? Read these canons from the Council of Orange and look for the verses:

Canon 3. If anyone says that the grace of God can be conferred as a result of human prayer, but that it is not grace itself which makes us pray to God, he contradicts the prophet Isaiah, or the Apostle who says the same thing, “I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me” (Rom 10:20, quoting Isa. 65:1).

Canon 4. If anyone maintains that God awaits our will to be cleansed from sin, but does not confess that even our will to be cleansed comes to us through the infusion and working of the Holy Spirit, he resists the Holy Spirit himself who says through Solomon, “The will is prepared by the Lord” (Prov. 8:35, LXX), and the salutary word of the Apostle, “For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure” (Phil. 2:13).

Canon 5. If anyone says that not only the increase of faith but also its beginning and the very desire for faith, by which we believe in Him who justifies the ungodly and comes to the regeneration of holy baptism — if anyone says that this belongs to us by nature and not by a gift of grace, that is, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit amending our will and turning it from unbelief to faith and from godlessness to godliness, it is proof that he is opposed to the teaching of the Apostles, for blessed Paul says, “And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ” (Phil. 1:6). And again, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” (Eph. 2:8). For those who state that the faith by which we believe in God is natural make all who are separated from the Church of Christ by definition in some measure believers.

Canon 6. If anyone says that God has mercy upon us when, apart from his grace, we believe, will, desire, strive, labor, pray, watch, study, seek, ask, or knock, but does not confess that it is by the infusion and inspiration of the Holy Spirit within us that we have the faith, the will, or the strength to do all these things as we ought; or if anyone makes the assistance of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, “What have you that you did not receive?” (1 Cor. 4:7), and, “But by the grace of God I am what I am” (1 Cor. 15:10).

Cont below

Beng, “Grace ALONE” means it is 100% Grace.

N.B.: in all your biblical verses, I didn’t find the expression “Grace ALONE”.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

beng:

You are a Protestant, live with it.

Why do you say the word “Protestant” as if it was an insulting word?

Born again Protestants are our brothers in Christ. Born again Romans also. All who are in Christ, are one body.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace!

beng:

Yeah right.

Islam believe in the God of Abraham too does that makes Islam = Christianity?

Your faulty Protestant (yes you are a Protestant) logic is ridiculous.

Islam believes Abraham was justified by faith and works under the grace of God. Just like you…

I am talking about justification by faith, and you talk about Muslims believing in the existance of a certain person called Abraham!!!

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace!

beng:

We can not REALLY say that it’s 100% grace because that would eradicate Free Will (altho thomism would ALMOST agree to this). So in a somewhat flawed and imperfect anlogy, it could be 99.9999999999% grace and 0.0000000001% Free Will.

Once you say it’s Grace ALONE, and then you say it’s not 100% Grace. Can you please tell me what is the meaning of the word “ALONE” for you?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

SocaliCatholic:

It appears that the act of using our free will to recieve God’s grace must not be classified as a work since it is freely given by God. All we have to do is recieve it. It is the first step for us to be able to share God’s love with others through works.

Our free will remaining a gift from God is unchanged, but now that we have recieved God’s grace, when we freely do works from that grace they are works of faith and sanctifying grace.

Choice to recieve God’s love =/= works

Choice to share God’s love with others = works

Interesting! Let’s think well about this all of us!

It appears that the act of using our free will to recieve God’s grace must not be classified as a work since it is freely given by God.

they are works of faith and sanctifying grace.

Step by step towards the Christian FAITH ( total consent of our being ), after having thought for a long time only about the faith of assent…

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

beng:

Wrong, it is important.

If A believes this and B believes that, then A and B can’t be both right.

beng, read again the replies about salvation by Grace ALONE, and you will see how you disagree with many of your friends here…

By the way: A and B don’t decide who is right. God decides that. All who believe His Word and are born again, they are children of God, and we don’t need to put them in categories.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

It’s good to think about LIFE. For this is our Message:

“Go, stand and speak to the people in the temple the whole message of this Life.” ( Acts 5:20 )

The Scripture says about the Gospel:

“For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.”” ( Romans 1:17 )

The righteous shall LIVE by faith, and not DIE! That means he will be righteous by faith, and then LIVE by faith. Living by faith means living practically the righteousness of God.

Let’s not forget that this righteousness of God is revealed “from faith to faith”, and NOT from faith to works.

Do you have LIFE? If not, then come to Jesus and take Life WITHOUT COST ( GRACE )! Repent and believe in Him, and you have LIFE.

“The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost.” ( Revelation 22:17 )

Praise the Lord!

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[beng]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

Beng, “Grace ALONE” means it is 100% Grace.

In a way it’s.

God didn’t have to save us. Heck, God din’t have to create the world and what’s in it. Without creating or saving he’s still infinetely perfect and good.

N.B.: in all your biblical verses, I didn’t find the expression “Grace ALONE”.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

Please don’t play dumb. Or do you want me to insult your inteligence?

 

[beng]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

Why do you say the word “Protestant” as if it was an insulting word?

Born again Protestants are our brothers in Christ. Born again Romans also. All who are in Christ, are one body.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

Depending on the person. I will take negatively if called Protestant.