The Real reason why one cannot be saved by faith alone.

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

YAQUBOS:

*Peace!

Once you say it’s Grace ALONE*, and then you say it’s not 100% Grace. Can you please tell me what is the meaning of the word “ALONE” for you?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

beng:

Do you believe in Free Will?

Tell me: why do you ask this question when talking about Grace ALONE? Did you find anything in the Holy Word of God saying that there is a problem with human free will and the Grace ALONE?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

RBushlow:

Peace be with you also.
I do not suppose it, I have read their writings. Ignatius of Antioc, born 50 AD, taught by Peter and John, gives ample evidence of the beliefs of the first century Church. Polycarp is another, also the Didache containing the teaching of the Apostles. No the Church Councils espouse Sola Fide. If I am incorrect, please point to some 1st and 2nd century writings or early Church Councils supporting Sola Fide. If not back that far, how about 2nd or 3rd century? None available, let’s look for 4th or 5th or 6th century examples of Sola Fide doctrine. I do not believe that you will find any for the first 16 centuries.

Your brother in Christ.

Notes:

1. The Church in the first centuries didn’t need to say SOLA, because all agreed about Salvation by faith. But the protestants needed to say SOLA, because of the corruption in the Roman Church in those times.
2. Even if all the Fathers didn’t understand the Scripture, this doesn’t mean that the Scripture is wrong and that they are right!

But read the following:

"And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

What shall we do, then, brethren? Shall we become slothful in well-doing, and cease from the practice of love? God forbid that any such course should be followed by us! But rather let us hasten with all energy and readiness of mind to perform every good work. For the Creator and Lord of all Himself rejoices in His works. For by His infinitely great power He established the heavens, and by His incomprehensible wisdom He adorned them." ( The First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians, Chapters XXXII and XXXIII )

There is an important idea in these lines of Clement: that we must have God as an example for us to good works. Did you ever ask yourself why God does all things GOOD ( good works ) although He doesn’t need Salvation?

We who are born of the Spirit, we have a new nature that LOVES to do good works, although we are not saved by those good works.

N.B.: Clement of Rome lived long before the 16th century…

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Pax]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

Notes:

1. The Church in the first centuries didn’t need to say SOLA, because all agreed about Salvation by faith. But the protestants needed to say SOLA, because of the corruption in the Roman Church in those times.
2. Even if all the Fathers didn’t understand the Scripture, this doesn’t mean that the Scripture is wrong and that they are right!

But read the following:

"And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

What shall we do, then, brethren? Shall we become slothful in well-doing, and cease from the practice of love? God forbid that any such course should be followed by us! But rather let us hasten with all energy and readiness of mind to perform every good work. For the Creator and Lord of all Himself rejoices in His works. For by His infinitely great power He established the heavens, and by His incomprehensible wisdom He adorned them." ( The First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians, Chapters XXXII and XXXIII )

There is an important idea in these lines of Clement: that we must have God as an example for us to good works. Did you ever ask yourself why God does all things GOOD ( good works ) although He doesn’t need Salvation?

We who are born of the Spirit, we have a new nature that LOVES to do good works, although we are not saved by those good works.

N.B.: Clement of Rome lived long before the 16th century…

In Love,
Yaqubos†

Sorry Yaqubos, but you are grasping at straws and you misunderstand the Fathers just as you misunderstand scripture. It is ludicrous for any of us to assume that we know scripture better than they did.

 

[beng]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

And in another way it is not by Grace ALONE?

Yes. that is right. Because human have free will.

All along this topic people are asking for the expression “faith ALONE”… Do I not have the right to ask for the expression “Grace ALONE” when you talk about it?

Why bother to find the expression “Faith Alone”? We already found it, James 2:24.

Grace alone mean that NOTHING that we do merited the plan of salvation. NOTHING. God did not start the plan of salvation because He sees some men start being good. Because without the grace of God, no man can do good (well, they can do natural goodness like build a house, looking for food etc). This is precisely what all of those verses is talking about.

By the way: I don’t want you to insult anyone. But you are not able to do this until you are born of the Spirit.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

I have born of the spirit. Maybe not in a whacky way that you so desperately try to explain.

 

[beng]

YAQUBOS:

Peace!

Yes, depending on the person. If he is carnal or natural man, he will take negatively if called Protestant.

In Love,

Yaqubos†

So, Yqaqubus, I call you a Protestant. If you’re carnal then you will reject it. Let’s see.

 

[beng]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

Notes:

1. The Church in the first centuries didn’t need to say SOLA, because all agreed about Salvation by faith. But the protestants needed to say SOLA, because of the corruption in the Roman Church in those times.

LOL. So, to fix corruption you become more corrupt? Because this way the previous corruption will look better? LOL

1. Even if all the Fathers didn’t understand the Scripture, this doesn’t mean that the Scripture is wrong and that they are right!

Who are you or even the Protestant, to think that they know the scripture better than the fathers? I’ll take the fathers’ words any day than even a professor like Luther.

But read the following:

"And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

What shall we do, then, brethren? Shall we become slothful in well-doing, and cease from the practice of love? God forbid that any such course should be followed by us! But rather let us hasten with all energy and readiness of mind to perform every good work. For the Creator and Lord of all Himself rejoices in His works. For by His infinitely great power He established the heavens, and by His incomprehensible wisdom He adorned them." ( The First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians, Chapters XXXII and XXXIII )

There is an important idea in these lines of Clement: that we must have God as an example for us to good works. Did you ever ask yourself why God does all things GOOD ( good works ) although He doesn’t need Salvation?

God doesn’t need salvation because he’s infinetely good and perfect. Men need salvation because of the fall. If men did not fall, they wouldn’t need salvation (but then again, if men did not fall then we would not experience the greater blessing)

 

[beng]

YAQUBOS:

Tell me: why do you ask this question when talking about Grace ALONE? Did you find anything in the Holy Word of God saying that there is a problem with human free will and the Grace ALONE?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

Because in a technical sense you can not have 100% grace. That would make human a robot. And also, that would make Calvin right in stating that God saves some people and then damned some people to hell. Even Luther, thanks to his erroneous theology, start saying how free will is a fiction.

 

[exrc]

Pax]exrc

Many more questions could be added that might “begin” to fill out the truth.

Let’s try just a couple

:

Do you have to repent of each and every sin you commit?

To be justified? no

To maintain communication with my Father in heaven,and be an effective christian?yes

Do you have to love God?

This is interesting,and revealing indeed!

Do YOU PAX, have to love God?

That is very sad.

Does God have to love Jesus?

Does a girl have to love her mother?

I love my Heavenly Father because a son can love his Father!

Big difference! I was blind but now I see!

You are simply on a different wave length. Try the gospels first. Read every word of Jesus over and over. Then try understanding Paul in that context. Try all of scripture.

,

I AM, using all of scipture. You guys seem to be stuck in the NT,
circular reasoning yourselves to death.

I am so glad you are dialoging with me. BLESS YOU !!!

In love!! exrc!

 

[RMP]

Grace alone and faith alone…HERESY. Always was, always will be. History does not deny this. Only you do.

 

[RMP]

eating the abomidable Jesus cracker!!! It was by faith ALONE!!! !!!

heresy

when I was water baptized as an adult for REAL out of obedience, the Lord bestowed upon me a special blessing. Which I noticed Immediately.

heresy. So the spirit can be unreal now. Baptism has nothing to due with your faith. If that was true, it would not be grace, or a sacrament. Read Luther and church on this issue.

The thief on the cross was not baptized, and did not ask to be! Shall I quote it?

speculation, you have no proof of your assertion he was not baptised, obviously he knew who christ was and that he was innocent. We dont even know what sin he was being condemmed for.

Who said it(baptism) was without purpose!

you did

We are supposed to remember what he did for us at the Lords supper,not eat him. That is a very good purpose!

denal of jesus himself, “and many disciples walked away”. The worst heresy, the heresy of judas.

Transubstantiation? You’ve lost your mind!!

Aparently you have, you deny the truth right in front of you. Symbolic gestures mean nothing to GOD. The Eucharist is not symbolic.

Jesus referred not to literal water here but to the need for “cleansing” (e.g.,Ezekial 36:24-27). When water is used figuratively in the OT, it habitually refers to renewal or spiritual cleansing, especially when used in conjunction with “spirit” (Num 19:17-19; Ps.51:9,10; Is.32:15; 44:3-5;55:1-3; Jer.2:13; Joel 2:28,29).

Learn the definition of sacrament. Its obvious you missed it as a catholic.

Thank God I’m not rc anymore!! Love Dan!

What a contradiction. heresy. you dont even know what catholic is.

 

[RBushlow]

RMP:

Learn the definition of sacrament. Its obvious you missed it as a catholic.

exrc:

Thank God I’m not rc anymore!! Love Dan!

What a contradiction. heresy. you dont even know what Catholic is.

RMP,

Don’t fall for his claims. Exrc never was a Catholic; he has no understanding of even the basic tenets of the Church and more often than not regurgitates the erroneous beliefs of anti-Catholics. In short, I believe he is claiming to have been Catholic in order to lend some credence to these erroneous statements. Let us keep him in our prayers.

May the peace of Christ be with you.

 

[mrS4ntA]

]
How did Jews get saved in the old test?Not by water baptism!!!
AND,not by eating the abomidable Jesus cracker!!! It was by faith ALONE!!!

not by faith alone… it was by ADHERING to the commandments and God gave them. i.e. the Law God gave through Moses. Their covenant was signed by the circumsision of every 8-day old infants. That’s their “baptism”!!

 

[francisca]

Pax:

The obedience of faith means that once we believe in God and all that He has revealed to us, then we follow His loving commands.

That’s exactly my point.

God reveal something, we must follow, despite of all things.

I would like to know where I entertained politics in my thoughts. Perhaps you could enlighten me.

To serve religion --being “anti-protestant”, “anti-catholics” are examples of “serving religion” (I am not anti religion though)-- is political mind. It pollutes our pure motivation to search and serve God. It distracts us from the Truth. Instead of searching, we are finding “our own truths” that serves our own desire to prove something. But to know God one has to have an attitude of “pondering with humility”. We see the media writes about “protestants” and “catholics” as if those are the truths. But those are not, and even if there is some truths inside them, those are only skin deep and mixed with all kinds of agendas.

But God’s Truth is hidden in “humility”.

I am not saying that you have “entertained” political mind but I can see that most of you guys are agaist protestants, as if the definition of catholicism is “not protestant”. In this we have similarity with those “anti-catholic” guys.

If you believe that Vatican II is trying to teach that we are saved by “faith alone” then you have misunderstood the Council.

“Faith alone” or “Grace through Faith” etc I don’t mind whatever definition. As long as we are not focusing ourselves in our own works instead of God’s works. This is an acheivement in the Joint declaration on Justification. We have to regard this as a progress in unity as well as an improvement in our knowledge about faith. God has reveal this to us : that He is faithful. We ought to believe this without wavering.

This is my point : we should not be looking at ourselves but to Christ on the cross. By focusing to His works, we will not lose hope, nor shaken because of His Faithfulness.

If we have purify our mind and our book rack from any non-spiritual motivation, then we will hear the calling “total surrender to God’s Mercy”, “obedience of faith”, “faith in hope of the assurance of salvation” from the most recent church documents.

Make no mistake, no Catholic that has addressed posts on this thread believes that we are saved without faith. No Catholic that has addressed posts on this thread believes that we can do good works outside of the faith that is given to us from God.

Yet, to focus ourselves in our works instead of Christ is misleading. It leads us the the uncertainty of our own works therefore we say “our salvation is not sure”. This is an indication of lack of the “fullness of faith”.

It is the Catholics on this thread that have insisted that we must love God in order to be saved.

Yes. Apostle John insisted that “we love because God has loved us first”. Without receiving the message of “The Cross”, one can’t love truly. The bible talks about “the new adam”, “the new heart”, “the new creation”. These are about a point when a person suddenly becomes “new”, and from then on his works will not be the same as his previous works, simply because he is a new person. And not because of his new works that he is renewed. Those works are the fruit of the new man. Even if Trent condemn this, this is the teaching of the Gospel. It’s not very difficult to prove this.

I don’t want to deny works. I just want to focus on Christ instead of my own works, and hoping that I will RECEIVE grace that would change my works as much as it has changed my heart. This is what I mean. The change of heart is the key, everything else will follow.

God bless you Pax.

 

[Pax]

:

To be justified? no

To maintain communication with my Father in heaven,and be an effective christian?yes

This is interesting,and revealing indeed!

Do YOU PAX, have to love God?

That is very sad.

Does God have to love Jesus?

Does a girl have to love her mother?

I love my Heavenly Father because a son can love his Father!

Big difference! I was blind but now I see!

,

I AM, using all of scipture. You guys seem to be stuck in the NT,
circular reasoning yourselves to death.

I am so glad you are dialoging with me. BLESS YOU !!!

In love!! exrc!

exrc,

You have stated that “you are using all of scripture and that we are stuck in the NT, circular reasoning yourselves to death.” Well, I see no scripture in the post that contains your questions nor do I see any scripture in your response to my critique. You merely make fun of the fact that I profess “from scripture” that one must love God in order to be saved.

I love God and believe all that He has revealed to us. I love God for several reasons. I am blessed to be an adopted son through Jesus and the Holy Spirit. God has, in His boundless love, bestow upon me the supernatural gifts of faith, hope, and love. Moreover, I love God because I know Him, and I know what is to due Him. The proof of my position relies on the fact that the Lord has revealed to us that His promise of salvation is “to those who love Him,” and that condemnation will fall upon those that do not.[James 1:12, James 2:5 1John 3:14, 1 John chapter 4, 1 Corinthians 16:22 and other verses]

We are wired for relationships and the greatest of all relationships is the one we have with the Lord. The apostle John tells us that God is love. If we love God we are known by Him. By the nature placed in man by God, we are designed to love the Creator. If we love ourselves and not God when we die, then God will give us exactly what we want and love. The result is eternal separation.

You claim that my view is sad, but this is the truth and it is the view described in scripture. Love and repentance are tied together. You do not believe that repentance is necessary for salvation once a person is justified, and that you read and use all of scripture. You believe that “once you are saved [justified] that you are always saved.” But this is clearly against scripture. Paul tells the Christians in the local Churches of his time, over and over, that if they do not stop back sliding and repent they will lose their salvation. A good example of this is in Romans 2:5 where he says, “But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;” And in Hebrews 10:29 we read, “How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?” The number of verses can be easily multiplied. I have researched and compiled over 65 NT verses that clearly refute “once saved always saved.” If you want the truth, send me a private message and request an email with the file of these verses. I’ll be glad to send them to you.

 

[Pax]

I have to take a break so my son can use the computer.

Before returning to the discussions I would like to first extend an apology to anyone that I may have irritated or offended. I can be overly aggressive and impetuous and for this I apologize to Yaqubos and exrc. I want to especially apologize to Francisca, because I do think I may have irritated you in particular.

Anyway, I will be back and I will be careful about my manners.

Pax

 

[RMP]

Demonstrate faith alone to me. I want to know what you believe.

 

[francisca]

beng:

CANON XII - If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ’s sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema

If Justifying faith is NOT confidence in Divine Mercy which remits sins for Christ’s sake, I don’t know what it is.

The bible tells us to trust nothing but God alone. Anyone trust God : this “trust” saves him. You can find dozens of scriptures to back this from Psalms alone.

Psalms 22
4 In you our fathers put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.[not because they “worked”, but because they “trusted” that God “delivered” them - francisca]
5 They cried to you and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not disappointed.

If you say that the faith that justified you is nothing more than mere confidence in the mercy of God then you are anathemize.

I trust in Divine Mercy : “Divine Mercy, I trust in You !”

This confidence does not make you justify.

Don’t you think that those who denies faith sounds similar to this verse :

Psalm 22:8
“He trusts in the LORD; let the LORD rescue him. Let him deliver him , since he delights in him.”

This scriptures is fulfilled on the cross :

Matthew 27
41In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him. 42"He saved others," they said, "but he can’t save himself! He’s the King of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. 43He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’ "[let him be anathema ! Anathema means to condemn somebody in order to save his soul (1Cor 5:5). The chief priests did not realize of what they are doing but their words & action exactly means anathematized Jesus. Literal meaning of anathema is “to be placed on high, to be suspended” just like “The Son of Man lifted up” - francisca] 44In the same way the robbers who were crucified with him also heaped insults on him.

John 3:14
And just as Moses lifted up 5 the serpent in the desert, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,

John 12
32 And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself."
33 He said this indicating the kind of death he would die.

So Jesus was died lifted up. He was anathematized.
Trent’s canon 12 on Justification say that anyone who say “Divine Mercy, I trust in you” is anathematized.

In this present day, after God reveal to us about faith in His Mercy, we understand that whoever trust in His Divine Mercy has to be crucified with Christ. Being crucified with Christ, we are die of all of trespasses of the flesh and reborn again of the spirit.

In this new light the church must surrender herself to her Spouse who is God the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Father Pope John Paul II give his new book an interesting title : “Rise, let us be on our way” (to the cross) : that this is our time to trust the Lord totally surrender to His hand so that we can be saved. But not without Christ that we take our cross but with Him who has done it all for us. So let us be crucified with Christ : meaning to trust God totally in Christ : to put confidence in Divine Mercy that remits our sins for Christ’s sake.

[contiune…]

 

[francisca]

Any man can fool him/herself into having false confidence.

How can it be false if one put confidence in God? God is the highest Truth. Nothing can be more truthful than God in Jesus Christ. Therefore Jesus said “I am The Truth”. Despite of anything, our faith in Jesus is always truthful. Anything deny this betray Christ. For if one is not confident in God then in what else is he confident with? The answer : Man who does not have confidence in God, has nothing to trust at all. He will be like a house on a shaken ground. His stand is never secure.

We see this everytime. You feel so sure you’re going to ace the test. You feel so sure that she/he will love you back. You feel so sure that you could win the race. But in the end, you only got 70% on the test, your girl/boyfriend is cheating with someone else, you lost the race.

You don’t understand. You put your trust in humans. God always on your side if you believe Him. But your girl friend is a human being. You are bound to love because God has loved you first. You can’t bind anyone to love. We are bound to love others but cannot insist that anyone should “love me” and give whatever “I want” because God is “on my side”. This is not what it means.

To believe in God means this : that we walk in God’s path always (in the ups and downs of life), not by my own strength but by God’s strength (this means BEYOND my own strength).

Thus, confidence is not the perfect measurement of justifying faith. In fact many people MAKE themselves confident to give them an edge over many things (like the test, love relationship and race above).

It is important to understand that to put confidence in God is not the same as “always get what I want the way I want it when I want it”. This is not confidence in God but confidence in ones own desire.

Confidence in God’s Mercy means ALWAYS HOPE and does not stop hoping because “I believe” “despite of anything”. And this walk I walk in His divine providence so that I can rest assured that I will finally reach “the land”, win the war agaist my sins and be free and alive truly. And I am expecting Him coming anytime. I am expecting Him in confidence of His Faithfulness. Even rightnow I am on my sickbed, in great debt, broken hearted, paralysed, jailed, drugged, didn’t pass the exam, just dropped out from school… I expect Him coming : I cry for His Help, and I know that He will come to help me in this life. I have great confidence in Him despite my situation, my wrongdoing, my past, my sins.

May God bless you Beng.

 

[francisca]

Pax:

I have to take a break so my son can use the computer.

Before returning to the discussions I would like to first extend an apology to anyone that I may have irritated or offended. I can be overly aggressive and impetuous and for this I apologize to Yaqubos and exrc. I want to especially apologize to Francisca, because I do think I may have irritated you in particular.

Anyway, I will be back and I will be careful about my manners.

Pax

Pax, you did not offend me at all. Be at peace!

God bless you.

 

[RMP]

How can it be false if one put confidence in God? God is the highest Truth. Nothing can be more truthful than God in Jesus Christ.

But this statement shows a lack of confidence in GOD. GOD made his church by men. Jesus commanded “GO FORTH AND TEACH” not go forth and preach. YOU have no confidence in men… The very same men JESUS did have confidence in when he commisioned and instructed his church, the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH. THEY NEVER TAUGHT FAITH ALONE.