B
beng
Guest
What Church do you go to usually? A link would be nice if they have it.
- Status
B
beng
Guest
To save.
B
beng
Guest
We are to listen our human teachers (Luk 10:16):
2Ti 1:11
For this gospel I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher,
Eph 4:11-16
11 And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ; 14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. 15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by every joint with which it is supplied, when each part is working properly, makes bodily growth and upbuilds itself in love
And what problem are you talking about?
R
RMP
Guest
So faith alone fails too, Catholics teach correctly.
So it is just a waste of time now eh?
you cant circumcise the heart
heresy
heresy, faith has nothing to do with it, this idea is what made Luther a heretic. you dont even understand why. If it depended on faith, then the spirit would be merited, an obligation from GOD. You fail to understand anything about Christianity or GRACE or CHRIST or BAPTISM at all!
So how can you deny infusion of grace in the BODY & SOUL and replace it with a theology of “covering up of sin through imputed righteousness” Throw the white cloth over the dirty sinner.
Only through Grace from GOD will you ever see these truths!
P
Pax
Guest
exrc,
Would you be so kind as to explain from scripture your claims concerning “baptism of the flesh making someone a carnal christain without profit.”
I believe you are taking many liberties here and are distorting the scriptural message of the regenerative nature of baptism and God’s promises.
P
Pax
Guest
This is an outrageous thing to say and it hurts your credibility. Prejudice and hate are blinding you.
B
beng
Guest
Btw
1Pet 3:21
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
1Pet 3:21
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
R
RMP
Guest
Baptism of the flesh makes you christian. That IS profit.
P
Pax
Guest
Yaqubos,
I find your contention against me to be most amusing. You first complain about my use of the Fathers and then you attempt to support your erroneous opinion by using Clement. You simply can’t have it both ways.
It is an absurd contention on your part to suggest that we do not rely upon human teachers. Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 12:28 that, “God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers” He says the same kind of thing again in Eph 4:11. In 1 Timothy 2:7, Paul refers to himself as a teacher. In 1 Timothy 3:12 Paul talks about the qualifications of a bishop [something the catholic church has) and says that a bishop should be “an apt teacher.”
In Acts 8:27-31 we read about Phillip and the Ethiopian eunuch. The Ethiopian eunuch was an educated man and was a minister of the queen. He was in his chariot reading the scriptures and Phillip asked him if he understood what he was reading. The eunuch answered him saying, “How can I, unless some one guides me?” So Phillip got up in the chariot and explained the scriptures.
In 2 Peter 1:20 the apostle tells us, “First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation” Then later in 2 Peter 3:15-16 the apostle tells us, " So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures." These folks obviously need teachers.
I could go on but these verses should be sufficient to make the point. At least, as Catholics, we have the humility to recognize that we need teachers.
We do not understand and interpret scripture on our own. We do need human teachers, but not just any teachers. We need bishops and teachers like Paul and Timothy. Paul speaks of Timothy’s ordination and says, “Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophetic utterance when the council of elders laid their hands upon you. Practice these duties, devote yourself to them, so that all may see your progress. Take heed to yourself and to **your teaching; hold to that, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.”[1 Timothy 4:16] Later in 1 Timothy 6:20 Paul tells him, “O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you.” He also tells Timothy not to be hasty in laying of of hands[1Timothy 5:22]
It is through ordination and the laying on of hands that we are provided sound teachers. This has been going on since the apostolic era and the Catholic Church has an unbroken chain in the laying on of hands. That is why Catholic teaching remains the same as that of the early church.
You attempted to use Clement to dispute my contentions concerning faith and works, but you negated your own arguments. Like Paul, Clement never says “faith alone” and he points out, “…let us hasten with all energy and readiness of mind to perform every good work. For the Creator and Lord of all Himself rejoices in His works. For by His infinitely great power He established the heavens, and by His incomprehensible wisdom He adorned them.” Clement is saying exactly what I have been arguing from the get go. As Christians our good works done in faith are by grace, and they are the works of God in us. Case Closed!!!
Y
YAQUBOS
Guest
Peace be with you!
beng:
By the way: I go to all local Churches. They are all the house of God.
In Love,
Yaqubos†
Why do you want the name of the Church? Do you want to go there? Well, I don’t have the mission to invite people to my local Church, but to invite them to LIFE.
By the way: I go to all local Churches. They are all the house of God.
In Love,
Yaqubos†
Y
YAQUBOS
Guest
Peace be with you!
beng:
YAQUBOS:
beng:
In Love,
Yaqubos†
Did he save us? Did He succeed in what He came for?
In Love,
Yaqubos†
Y
YAQUBOS
Guest
Peace be with you!
beng:
"But Jesus, knowing what they were thinking in their heart, took a child and stood him by His side,
and said to them, “Whoever receives this child in My name receives Me, and whoever receives Me receives Him who sent Me” ( Luke 9:47-48 )
If receiving means listening to the person of the preacher…
But we will have a problem here: how can we find this child that Jesus took and stood by His side?..
beng:
beng:
In Love,
Yaqubos†
If we understand Luke 10:16 in the way you understand it, then we must listen to some children too:
"But Jesus, knowing what they were thinking in their heart, took a child and stood him by His side,
and said to them, “Whoever receives this child in My name receives Me, and whoever receives Me receives Him who sent Me” ( Luke 9:47-48 )
If receiving means listening to the person of the preacher…
But we will have a problem here: how can we find this child that Jesus took and stood by His side?..
A teacher teaches what he learned from the Master, not what he himself thinks is right.
I am talking about the problem you are finding concerning human free will and Salvation by Grace ALONE. I am asking you: where do you find that problem in Scripture?
In Love,
Yaqubos†
Y
YAQUBOS
Guest
Peace be with you!
Pax:
Pax:
Pax:
Pax:
“But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!” ( Galatians 1:8-9 )
“But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.” ( Galatians 2:11 )
Notes: Cephas is Peter.
Continued in the next reply, if the Lord permits.
In Love,
Yaqubos†
[/quote]
When a Father teaches what Scripture says, then he is teaching right! So we can quote him to show you that there were in fact some Fathers who taught right, although others made mistakes. In the quote of Clement that I gave you, Clement is saying a right teaching! So I quote it. But if he teaches a wrong thing, we cannot listen to him and despise the Word of God. After all, Clement is a HUMAN, and fallible. HE CAN DO MISTAKES.
- The whole Catholic Orthodox Church of Christ has teachers.
- A teacher teaches what he first learned from the Master. If he teaches anything else, then he is doing wrong, he is teaching what he is personally convinced of, and we can’t listen to him.
Was Philip a bishop?
Paul is quoted by Peter as SCRIPTURE! But even if Paul teaches something wrong, he must be accursed!
“But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!” ( Galatians 1:8-9 )
“But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.” ( Galatians 2:11 )
Notes: Cephas is Peter.
Continued in the next reply, if the Lord permits.
In Love,
Yaqubos†
[/quote]
Y
YAQUBOS
Guest
Peace!
Let’s continue by His Grace.
Pax:
Pax:
Pax:
Paul is asking Timothy to keep the right teaching. What if Timothy didn’t guard what has been entrusted to him?
Pax:
But I have some questions:
Pax:
Case reopened in the next reply, if the Lord wills.
In Love,
Yaqubos†
Let’s continue by His Grace.
Yes, as Christians we need teachers.
And not like Philip, too?
; hold to that, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers."[1 Timothy 4:16] Later in 1 Timothy 6:20 Paul tells him, “O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you.” He also tells Timothy not to be hasty in laying of of hands[1Timothy [/color]5:22]
Paul is asking Timothy to keep the right teaching. What if Timothy didn’t guard what has been entrusted to him?
Yes, Catholic teaching, not Roman teaching.
But I have some questions:
- Do you think a bishop can sin?
- If a sinful bishop lays his hand on a person, is the ordination of that person acceptable?
- Is the merit of the bishop that is making the other person a bishop, or the merits of Christ?
For the Creator and Lord of all Himself rejoices in His works. For by His infinitely great power He established the heavens, and by His incomprehensible wisdom He adorned them." Clement is saying exactly what I have been arguing from the get go. As Christians our good works done in faith are by grace, and they are the works of God in us. Case Closed!!!
Case reopened in the next reply, if the Lord wills.
In Love,
Yaqubos†
Y
YAQUBOS
Guest
Peace and LOVE!
Pax:
“For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.”” ( Romans 1:17 )
“from faith to faith” and not “from faith to works”.
In fact, if it is by faith, then it is not by our works, but by the work of God in us ( GRACE ).
But does Clement say anything else? Let’s read him again:
“And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.”
He says clearly that we are not justified by any merit in us, we are not justified by our works or godliness or holiness of heart.
Then he continues:
“What shall we do, then, brethren? Shall we become slothful in well-doing, and cease from the practice of love? God forbid that any such course should be followed by us! But rather let us hasten with all energy and readiness of mind to perform every good work. For the Creator and Lord of all Himself rejoices in His works. For by His infinitely great power He established the heavens, and by His incomprehensible wisdom He adorned them.”
Why does he find any danger of becoming slothful? Well, because if we are not saved by our works, some people may think faith is just an assent of mind ( i.e. the dead faith James is talking about ). Therefore, Clement wants to make it clear. He says that, although we are not saved by our works, but we must not become slothful in well-doing. And to explain this, he gives the example of God doing always good, although God doesn’t need to be saved by His works!
This is in fact the Gospel. When God creates us anew in Jesus Christ, we become NEW creatures who LOVE to do His will.
“Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.” ( 2 Corinthians 5:17 )
We are saved from sin to LIVE in God’s righteousness which is PRACTICAL and not a theory to which we just agree in mind ( i.e. the dead faith James is talking about ). We are new creatures, created in Christ, not by works, but to walk in good works:
“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.” ( Ephesians 2:8-10 )
The natural man wants to earn his salvation. He says: “we do works by God’s grace in order to be saved”.
The children of God say: “we are saved by God’s Grace, through faith and not works, to do good works”.
Is this what you believe? Is this what you say with the children of God?
Pax:
But the case is not closed, because there are still many people on earth who need to know this message of LIFE.
In Love,
Yaqubos†
First, read again what I wrote before:
So no need to say SOLA to mean it. Paul says clearly:
“For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.”” ( Romans 1:17 )
“from faith to faith” and not “from faith to works”.
In fact, if it is by faith, then it is not by our works, but by the work of God in us ( GRACE ).
But does Clement say anything else? Let’s read him again:
“And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.”
He says clearly that we are not justified by any merit in us, we are not justified by our works or godliness or holiness of heart.
Then he continues:
“What shall we do, then, brethren? Shall we become slothful in well-doing, and cease from the practice of love? God forbid that any such course should be followed by us! But rather let us hasten with all energy and readiness of mind to perform every good work. For the Creator and Lord of all Himself rejoices in His works. For by His infinitely great power He established the heavens, and by His incomprehensible wisdom He adorned them.”
Why does he find any danger of becoming slothful? Well, because if we are not saved by our works, some people may think faith is just an assent of mind ( i.e. the dead faith James is talking about ). Therefore, Clement wants to make it clear. He says that, although we are not saved by our works, but we must not become slothful in well-doing. And to explain this, he gives the example of God doing always good, although God doesn’t need to be saved by His works!
This is in fact the Gospel. When God creates us anew in Jesus Christ, we become NEW creatures who LOVE to do His will.
“Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.” ( 2 Corinthians 5:17 )
We are saved from sin to LIVE in God’s righteousness which is PRACTICAL and not a theory to which we just agree in mind ( i.e. the dead faith James is talking about ). We are new creatures, created in Christ, not by works, but to walk in good works:
“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.” ( Ephesians 2:8-10 )
The natural man wants to earn his salvation. He says: “we do works by God’s grace in order to be saved”.
The children of God say: “we are saved by God’s Grace, through faith and not works, to do good works”.
Is this what you believe? Is this what you say with the children of God?
If this is what you were saying, then AMEN! And sorry for not understanding you from the beginning.
But the case is not closed, because there are still many people on earth who need to know this message of LIFE.
In Love,
Yaqubos†
S
SocaliCatholic
Guest
Which is greater: to have faith in God or to love God?
R
RMP
Guest
Yaqubos,
The main belief of the CATHOLIC church is the PRESERVATION OF WHAT HAS BEEN TAUGHT BY CHRIST. This is the TRADITION of the church. No one in the Catholic church has authority to change the faith Jesus revealed to us. The burden of proof lies on you to prove when, how, why, where, and what has been changed by the catholic church that is contrary to Jesus teachings and the apostolic fathers. That is why the catholic church IS infallable. IT has kept the teachings of christ through all the ages and offered the teachings to the world. But like usual, the world always rebels aganst GOD and his word and the church Christ founded. the catholic church.
The main belief of the CATHOLIC church is the PRESERVATION OF WHAT HAS BEEN TAUGHT BY CHRIST. This is the TRADITION of the church. No one in the Catholic church has authority to change the faith Jesus revealed to us. The burden of proof lies on you to prove when, how, why, where, and what has been changed by the catholic church that is contrary to Jesus teachings and the apostolic fathers. That is why the catholic church IS infallable. IT has kept the teachings of christ through all the ages and offered the teachings to the world. But like usual, the world always rebels aganst GOD and his word and the church Christ founded. the catholic church.
J
javelin
Guest
exrc,
I’m curious if you have taken Pax up on his offer of the verses in the gospels that seem to clearly indicate the necessity of works. Have you look into those? What are your honest thoughts?
I certainly can see how you (and others) came to the theological conclusions you have, based on the writings of Paul, but it is still very unclear how you reconcile that with many passages in the gospels that seem to clearly refute a “faith only” doctrine (also James, for which there is still no solid reasoning that reconciles what he says with “faith alone”). ALL of scripture is True, and cannot contradict itself, otherwise Christianity’s entire faith system is in serious doubt.
Please also know that if your protestant doctrines are proven wrong, the love of God, devotion to Him, and faith you have developed since you were “born again” are not diminished in the slightest. I think many fallen-away Catholics who have grown in faith outside of the Church are afraid that if they return to the Church (even if convinced the Church’c doctrine is really True), their excitement, love of God, and faith will falter. DON’T BE AFRAID. Your faith has a place in the Catholic Church as well, and there are many in the Church who can benefit from someone who is on fire for Christ. All will benefit more, however, if that fiery faith is grounded in solid doctrinal Truth.
Peace,
javelin
I’m curious if you have taken Pax up on his offer of the verses in the gospels that seem to clearly indicate the necessity of works. Have you look into those? What are your honest thoughts?
I certainly can see how you (and others) came to the theological conclusions you have, based on the writings of Paul, but it is still very unclear how you reconcile that with many passages in the gospels that seem to clearly refute a “faith only” doctrine (also James, for which there is still no solid reasoning that reconciles what he says with “faith alone”). ALL of scripture is True, and cannot contradict itself, otherwise Christianity’s entire faith system is in serious doubt.
Please also know that if your protestant doctrines are proven wrong, the love of God, devotion to Him, and faith you have developed since you were “born again” are not diminished in the slightest. I think many fallen-away Catholics who have grown in faith outside of the Church are afraid that if they return to the Church (even if convinced the Church’c doctrine is really True), their excitement, love of God, and faith will falter. DON’T BE AFRAID. Your faith has a place in the Catholic Church as well, and there are many in the Church who can benefit from someone who is on fire for Christ. All will benefit more, however, if that fiery faith is grounded in solid doctrinal Truth.
Peace,
javelin
J
javelin
Guest
YAQUBOS,
I find it humorous that you continue to skirt the issue of what faith tradition you really belong to. It is not a difficult question, and your continual insistence on skirting the issue with “answers” that say nothing does little for your credibility. Are you a politician by profession? Your pattern of dancing around simple questions would work on any presidential candidate’s spin team.
So I’m going to try again, and I hope you have the decency to give the most straightforward and honest answer you can.
To what church do you belong? Do you go to a building to worship on Sundays (or Saturday evening)? What was the name of the building, and its professed denomination, of where you went to church to worship this last weekend?
Why is this important? Our religious formation is guided by the institutions and religious leaders whom we respect and by whom we have been taught. Knowing what those influences are on your faith will better help us all understand your theology.
Peace,
javelin
B
beng
Guest
Why evade the question? I want to know the name. Is that such hard of a question to answer? Does it make you to hide the truth?
- Status