B
beng
Guest
What is this one Church? Which one? Baptist? Presbyterian? Lutheran?
Or your own Church?
And btw, why are you still avoiding telling us what’s the name of the Church you go to? Are you ashame of it? That’s so sad.
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Or your own Church?
And btw, why are you still avoiding telling us what’s the name of the Church you go to? Are you ashame of it? That’s so sad.
Y
YAQUBOS
Guest
Peace be with you!
RMP:
In Love,
Yaqubos†
In a topic about LIFE and Salvation, I don’t mean to enter in your vain discussions about washings and baptism and circumcision. But, RMP, what you say here makes me think about something: if you think every gesture Christ instituted is a means of justification, then why don’t you make washing of feet a means of justification, too??? Didn’t Jesus wash the feet of the disciples, and He even told Peter that he cannot have part with Him if He doesn’t wash him? What about adding an 8th sacrament to your human institution called “washing of feet”???
In Love,
Yaqubos†
Y
YAQUBOS
Guest
Peace be with you!
beng:
You say you don’t understand it! So the good thing to do is to accept the Revelation of God AS IT IS, even if you don’t understand it perfectly! God says it is by GRACE! So don’t add “and 0.00001% free will”!! It is all by GRACE!
Certainly God doesn’t have a problem with it. And He revealed to us what we must BELIEVE, even if we don’t fully understand.
You don’t find a revelation about any problem concerning human free will and Grace ALONE, and yet you want to make a problem, just to add your works to that Grace ALONE!!! And you do all this, although you say you don’t understand what it is all about!!!
You don’t understand how God is Father and Son and Holy Spirit. Do you say: “well, as I don’t understand this, so I will say that only the Father is God”?
As for your question about the Trinity, I will just give a little comment, although this is not the place to talk about that: YES, I have a problem with the WORD “Trinity”, but I don’t have a problem, in faith, with the Trinity. The word is human-made, and is not 100% what God is, although it is a good word to explain what we believe. God is Father and Son and Holy Spirit, because He says this, and I accept this in FAITH.
This is all what matters: FAITH. Keep this word in your mind. Some day, if you taste how the Lord is good, you will not cease thanking Him for this Grace.
In Love,
Yaqubos†
How you like to justify weaknesses by weaknesses, although you are building a whole theology on those weaknesses!!!
You say you don’t understand it! So the good thing to do is to accept the Revelation of God AS IT IS, even if you don’t understand it perfectly! God says it is by GRACE! So don’t add “and 0.00001% free will”!! It is all by GRACE!
Certainly God doesn’t have a problem with it. And He revealed to us what we must BELIEVE, even if we don’t fully understand.
You don’t find a revelation about any problem concerning human free will and Grace ALONE, and yet you want to make a problem, just to add your works to that Grace ALONE!!! And you do all this, although you say you don’t understand what it is all about!!!
You don’t understand how God is Father and Son and Holy Spirit. Do you say: “well, as I don’t understand this, so I will say that only the Father is God”?
As for your question about the Trinity, I will just give a little comment, although this is not the place to talk about that: YES, I have a problem with the WORD “Trinity”, but I don’t have a problem, in faith, with the Trinity. The word is human-made, and is not 100% what God is, although it is a good word to explain what we believe. God is Father and Son and Holy Spirit, because He says this, and I accept this in FAITH.
This is all what matters: FAITH. Keep this word in your mind. Some day, if you taste how the Lord is good, you will not cease thanking Him for this Grace.
In Love,
Yaqubos†
Y
YAQUBOS
Guest
Peace be with you!
beng:
And by the way: I am not ashamed of the Church of Christ. And if I tell you the name of the places where I worship the Lord in Spirit and Truth, I am sure you will be really embarrassed. Because it is not like you think.
For instance, I go sometimes to the Apostolic Church of Armenia to participate in the Eucharist. ( I am Armenian. N.B.: not Arminian, but Armenian
). Do you like to visit us some day?..
Ah, beng… beng… wake up! Forget about human teachings, and LISTEN TO THE VOICE OF THE LORD.
“TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS.” ( Hebrews 4:7 )
In Love,
Yaqubos†
Ah, this man has no idea about God’s Church… What are you saying here!!! You call human institutions “CHURCH”??? You must go deep in those human institutions to find the Church…
And by the way: I am not ashamed of the Church of Christ. And if I tell you the name of the places where I worship the Lord in Spirit and Truth, I am sure you will be really embarrassed. Because it is not like you think.
For instance, I go sometimes to the Apostolic Church of Armenia to participate in the Eucharist. ( I am Armenian. N.B.: not Arminian, but Armenian
). Do you like to visit us some day?..Ah, beng… beng… wake up! Forget about human teachings, and LISTEN TO THE VOICE OF THE LORD.
“TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS.” ( Hebrews 4:7 )
In Love,
Yaqubos†
B
beng
Guest
Simple question: Where does Free Will play in this?
I don’t want to dwelve about the word itself. You can pick whatever word suit you. Just explain Trinity that it makes 100% sense to me.
B
beng
Guest
The Church IS made of human. So what are you talking about? As the one who institutionalized it, it was Christ Mat 16:18.
Why oh why should I be embarassed?For instance, I go sometimes to the Apostolic Church of Armenia to participate in the Eucharist. ( I am Armenian. N.B.: not Arminian, but Armenian
And if by Apostolic Church of Armenian you mean Armenian Orthodox than you should be embarassed because you cling on to erroneous doctrine of Luther, Sola Fide.
It’s funny because when Luther started the Protestantism he sent some delegation to the East and seek alliance and confirmation of his newfound doctrine. The Orthodox flat out rejected his doctrine it’s not even funny.
Y
YAQUBOS
Guest
Peace be with you!
beng:
In Love,
Yaqubos†
Well, as we see, your question about the Church where I go was without sense. You just began now to attack again Protestantism, and maybe later you want to attck the so called “Orthodox” Church. You are still talking about human institutions. But I don’t see what does this have to do with the Doctrine of the Church of Christ and the teaching of the Scripture. I don’t see how this helped in our topic here.
In Love,
Yaqubos†
B
beng
Guest
But indeed it was. Knowing that you’re an Orthodox now enable me to quote the fathers in a more authoritative way.
Attack Protestantism in what way? saying that it’s wrong? well I will never cease to say that Protestantism is wrong. And I will also say that Orthodox is wrong + Shcizmatic.
If you’re Orthodox then you have to realize that Orthodox believe in ONE VISIBILE CHURCH. Which consist of ALL Churches with valid Bishop. Valid Bishop as meaning the bishop retain his ordination through apostolic sucession.
This is way different than Protestantism idea of what Church is, which is what your idea of Church is more alike to.
P
Pax
Guest
Yaqubos,
Yes the real church is one. The Catholic Church is one. While Satan is certainly responsible for the divisions in Christianity, it is not a Satanic lie to observe the fact that the divisions exist. Jesus never would have prayed for the unity of believers in John 17 if there was not a danger of disunity. Notice that Paul says in Eph. 4:1-3 “I THEREFORE, a prisoner for the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all lowliness and meekness, with patience, forbearing one another in love, **eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit ** in the bond of peace. Then again he says in Eph 4:11-14, " And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, **until we all attain to the unity of the faith ** and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ; so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles.” Paul complains and cautions in other verses about factions and divisions.
This problem is caused by Satan, but it is a fact and not a lie.
P
Pax
Guest
Yaqubos,
In truth you must be very careful here. You call our Church teachings human teachings. You believe that what you accept is directly from God. I assume that you mean by way of scripture guided by the Holy Spirit.
Please note that many other people believe with great conviction that they only accept that which is from God by way of scripture as they are guided by the Holy Spirit. Yet these people do not believe everything that you do.
Each Church, whether it is a main line denomination, a small unaffiliated Bible Church, or the Catholic Church, all teach and believe that they accept only the Holy Word of God and all believe that they are guided by the Holy Spirit. Yet the Churches do not agree on many teachings and doctrines. All Churches and individuals will admit, if they are honest, that they accept some tradition that is not expressly stated in scripture. The traditions that they accept, however, do not all agree with one another.
What can we say about this situation? It’s pretty obvious that not all of these differing beliefs are correct because they so often contradict one another. It is impossible to trump your beliefs and doctrines if you believe that you are guided only by scripture and the Holy Spirit even by someone else that claims that their beliefs are superior to yours because they are the one that is guided only by scripture and the Holy Spirit. Everybody makes the same claims to scripture and the Holy Spirit to arrive at different conclusions.
You cannot logically make any assertion against beng or anyone else’s claims based on your personal belief that you are guided solely by scripture and the Holy Spirit. Everyone else that makes the same claim as you but does not agree with you has every reason to say that they are right. But we know that contradictory doctrines will by definition mean that some doctrine is wrong.
Your personal beliefs or beliefs and doctrines that you accept just might be the wrong doctrines while the other person’s may be correct or more correct than yours. As individuals we are all in this predicament. I might think that my personal and prayerful reading of scripture is giving me its truth, and I could be completely wrong. I am a human being with human weakness and my emotions, feelings, and life experience may be coloring how I interpret scripture. This is not the work of the Holy Spirit, yet I may claim that it is the Holy Spirit that guided me. This borders on blasphemy because I would be laying my errors at the feet of the Holy Spirit rather than myself. So why is this happening? Why isn’t sola scriptura Okay? Why is it that I or anyone else that believes in Jesus as their Lord and Savior, is unable to arrive at the same understandings from scripture?
cont. on next post
P
Pax
Guest
cont. from prior post
There is a reason and we can find it in scripture and it is a misuse of scripture by those that advocate “sola scriptura” that is at the bottom of it. In John 16:13 Jesus says, “When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth;” This verse and 2 Timothy 3:16 are used by those that contend that you can read scripture on your own and know the truths and doctrines of Christianity on your own. Unfortunately, they have misused John 16:13 because they have not read it carefully in context. Jesus doesn’t say these words to just anybody. Jesus says these words to the apostles. The Holy Spirit guides the Church through its leadership. That is why we read about Jesus, Peter, and the Keys, the laying on of hands, bishops, presbyters (priests), deacons, and teachers. This is why Paul talks about his authority. This is why Paul talks about Timothy’s authority. This is why they had a council in Jerusalem, and this is why the Catholic Church has had councils throughout the Centuries.
Without the Church it is everyone for themselves. Without the Church everyone can pick and choose as they wish, and they can claim that it’s straight out of the bible and confirmed by the Holy Spirit speaking in their heart. If this was the way it’s supposed to be then everyone would come to the same doctrinal conclusions because the Holy Spirit would tell everyone the truth. There is only one body of truth not many truths and many bodies of truth.
There is a reason and we can find it in scripture and it is a misuse of scripture by those that advocate “sola scriptura” that is at the bottom of it. In John 16:13 Jesus says, “When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth;” This verse and 2 Timothy 3:16 are used by those that contend that you can read scripture on your own and know the truths and doctrines of Christianity on your own. Unfortunately, they have misused John 16:13 because they have not read it carefully in context. Jesus doesn’t say these words to just anybody. Jesus says these words to the apostles. The Holy Spirit guides the Church through its leadership. That is why we read about Jesus, Peter, and the Keys, the laying on of hands, bishops, presbyters (priests), deacons, and teachers. This is why Paul talks about his authority. This is why Paul talks about Timothy’s authority. This is why they had a council in Jerusalem, and this is why the Catholic Church has had councils throughout the Centuries.
Without the Church it is everyone for themselves. Without the Church everyone can pick and choose as they wish, and they can claim that it’s straight out of the bible and confirmed by the Holy Spirit speaking in their heart. If this was the way it’s supposed to be then everyone would come to the same doctrinal conclusions because the Holy Spirit would tell everyone the truth. There is only one body of truth not many truths and many bodies of truth.
E
exrc
Guest
One passage in the NT does not put the whole bible into context.Contrary, the whole bible puts THAT passage into context.
Again you are circular reasoning!
And also you!
E
exrc
Guest
Quote from RMP,]
Yes, Jesus was circumcised. He created it.
It pointed OT Jews ahead to the cross. That was its purpose.
Just as water baptism points us back to the cross. Along with the Lords supper.
Go back and read my post. You are not understanding it.
.
.
I don’t believe they are worthless, why are you putting words in my mouth?You see them as a means for justification. I see them as a way to remember the cross, explain it, and celebrate it.Thats a pretty darn important reason.My point is, OT Jews did not need the rc sacraments for justification, because they were saved by FAITH ALONE. The Jewish leadership tried to turn the God given festivals into a means for justification. Instead of their real purpose, which was to point ahead to the cross.
This is the same thing you are doing with the sacraments.
Roman catholics are the new Pharisees! They heap on heavy loads to people.They add to scripture , obstain from meat, They teach not to marry 1Tim.4.
Blind Pharisees! when will you learn?
Let them have ears ,o God!!
In love, exrc!
You are correct, it was MrS4ntA, Sorry!
Yes, Jesus was circumcised. He created it.
It pointed OT Jews ahead to the cross. That was its purpose.
Just as water baptism points us back to the cross. Along with the Lords supper.
.
Go back and read my post. You are not understanding it.
I was referring to it as a means of justification. Read the post!
That is your opinion.
.
You are obviously not seeing the depth of my post,and not reading the scripture references.
.
]
I don’t believe they are worthless, why are you putting words in my mouth?You see them as a means for justification. I see them as a way to remember the cross, explain it, and celebrate it.Thats a pretty darn important reason.My point is, OT Jews did not need the rc sacraments for justification, because they were saved by FAITH ALONE. The Jewish leadership tried to turn the God given festivals into a means for justification. Instead of their real purpose, which was to point ahead to the cross.
This is the same thing you are doing with the sacraments.
Roman catholics are the new Pharisees! They heap on heavy loads to people.They add to scripture , obstain from meat, They teach not to marry 1Tim.4.
Blind Pharisees! when will you learn?
Let them have ears ,o God!!
In love, exrc!
P
Pax
Guest
Since you refuse to accept the plain words of James and the entire context of scripture, it is you that twist the words of scripture to your own destruction.
Now, please explain the logical connection between your first statement and your second one. You have never demonstrated any circular reasoning on our part. You merely make the statement. Please try again.
P
Pax
Guest
exrc,
I’m offering you some friendly advice here. You need to stop the name calling and you need to stop making hateful remarks. As I pointed out to you earlier, “these things hurt your credibility.”
If we do not keep our discussions civil, the forum administrators will step in and give us a spanking. Members can be suspended or banned for this kind of misbehavior.
Among Christians there is no justification for treating one another this way. Even if we were exactly what you believe us to be, it is still un-Christian for you to address us the way you have in your posts. This is not the way of the Lord.
Please try to restrict your posts to logical thought and not blind hate and bigotry.
Go in peace and love the Lord.
Pax
B
beng
Guest
Poeple should stop throwing pearls at swine (Mat 7:6).
Y
YAQUBOS
Guest
Peace be with you!
beng:
Now how carnal you are: once you call me Protestant, and once you call me Orthodox. You want to put me in a category to attack that category, while I am in Christ, so you need to attack Christ to be able to attack me. But be sure that nobody can attack Jesus and win. Saul, who is Paul, tried before you.
beng:
Well, let me remind you that this topic is about how we can have LIFE.
In Love,
Yaqubos†
Yes, I belong to the Catholic Orthodox Evangelical Apostolical Church of Christ. But I am not Orthodox, in the sense you use the word “Orthodox”.
Now how carnal you are: once you call me Protestant, and once you call me Orthodox. You want to put me in a category to attack that category, while I am in Christ, so you need to attack Christ to be able to attack me. But be sure that nobody can attack Jesus and win. Saul, who is Paul, tried before you.
What a hobby…
Well, let me remind you that this topic is about how we can have LIFE.
In Love,
Yaqubos†
Y
YAQUBOS
Guest
Peace!
By the way, beng… If you want to talk about the Fathers, why don’t you begin with Clement of Rome that I previously quoted here?
In Love,
Yaqubos†
By the way, beng… If you want to talk about the Fathers, why don’t you begin with Clement of Rome that I previously quoted here?
In Love,
Yaqubos†
Y
YAQUBOS
Guest
Peace be with you!
Pax:
By the way: Paul is saying this in Ephesians while there weren’t so many denominations yet.
In Love,
Yaqubos†
Pax, in that passage of Ephesians, Paul is not saying let’s establish a unity, but let’s MAINTAIN that unity. But as some are “children”, as he call them, so the unity is not clear among them. So let us wake up and be spiritual so that we may see where is the Unique Bride of Christ.
By the way: Paul is saying this in Ephesians while there weren’t so many denominations yet.
In Love,
Yaqubos†
Y
YAQUBOS
Guest
Peace be with you!
beng:
In Love,
Yaqubos†
Some people may think they have pearls, while all what they catch is the wind…
In Love,
Yaqubos†
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