B
beng
Guest
Yes.
- Status
B
beng
Guest
I did not wrote Luke 9:47-48 but Luke 10:16. The context is Luke 10:1-16. You proposing Luke 9:47-8 is beyond me.
Correct. And I have bishops by sucession of the Apostles (Apostolic Sucession). Do you?
- Scripture says that men has free will
- Scripture says that men can do nothing good without the grace of God.
P
Pax
Guest
Your definition of the natural man does not match the definition Paul gives in scripture. You are attempting to twist our statements on salvation into a statement of “works righteousnes.” We do not claim that we do works by God’s grace to be saved. Instead, we say that, “we are saved by God’s grace alone, through the merits of Jesus Christ, through faith and works but not by faith alone.” There is a huge difference between this and your definition of the natural man.
No where in scripture do we finds words, terms, and declarations that match you statement, “we are saved by God’s Grace, through faith and not works, to do good works”. Remember, James says that we are “saved by works and not by faith alone.” As Catholics we cannot defy these inspired words or twist them to mean something even slightly different then what the apostle clearly says. He does not say that "we are saved by God’s Grace, through faith and not works, to do good works.
James epistle makes it clear that saving faith and good works are inseparable. He uses the analogy of the human being. He points out that the human being is made up of body and spirit and that if you separate them the human being is dead. He uses the analogy to show that faith and works are like the body and spirit. If you separate works from faith then faith is dead and cannot save you. This teaching of James is not works righteousness because we walk by grace and are empowered by grace.
This is why I brought up Mother Therese in a prior post. I wanted to use a modern day example to demonstrate the “power” of God’s grace. We are to be like Jesus. We are to put aside the old life of the flesh and sin, and we are to live in the life of the Spirit. We are to love and to live for the Lord. Because of human weakness this cannot be of ourselves. It is, instead, from God through the power of His grace.
Ponder these two verses and you will begin to understand the power of God’s grace and why faith and works cannot be separated.
Eph 3:20
Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to accomplish abundantly far more than all we can ask or imagine,
Eph 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
P
Pax
Guest
Yaqubos,
In reference to Paul and Clement and by faith alone you said,
“So no need to say SOLA to mean it.”
If this were true then James could not have said “a man is saved by works and not by faith alone.” It is a direct contradiction.
In reference to Paul and Clement and by faith alone you said,
“So no need to say SOLA to mean it.”
If this were true then James could not have said “a man is saved by works and not by faith alone.” It is a direct contradiction.
P
Pax
Guest
Yaqubos,
You posted the following:
*Yes, Catholic teaching, not Roman teaching.
But I have some questions:
Your questions:
Yes, a bishop can sin and I’m sure they will all admit to doing so. As you pointed out even Peter sinned in being hypocritical with the Judaizers. And yes, Paul, one of Peter’s chief and senior bishops(Cardinal), upbraided him for it. In spite of Peter’s sin he went on to write two infallible epistles which even Protestants agree are completely free of errors. This is the protection for teaching that the Holy Spirit provides to the Church. It has nothing to do with a person’s personal sin. If it did then “all” teaching would be corrupt and we would have nothing to believe in. And that includes scripture because sinful humans were the instruments God used to write scripture. But we know that scripture is inerrant because God protected the sacred authors from error and provided the inspiration for what they wrote. While there is no new public revelation since the apostles, we believe that the teachings that flow from scripture and tradition that was handed down are protected from error.
If a bishop is sinful and ordains someone, the ordination is still valid. The bishop has to repent of his sins, but scripture does not tell us that his power or authority are rescinded because he has sinned. The Church, in the authority to bind and loose, may strip a bishop of his episcopate and remove him from ministry but he is a priest forever. This does not mean that he will go to heaven. There are probably a fair number of priests and bishops that failed to serve the Lord and chose to serve only themselves, thus winding up on the wrong side of the eternal divide.
The power to ordain is a power from God. Remember in ACTS 8:13-24 when Simon the Magician asked Peter and John to give him the power that comes with the laying on of hands. In this instance Peter rebuked Simon because he knew the Magicians motives and he refused to give him the power associated with the laying of hands. If Simon’s sinfulness would have negated this gift of God it would not have mattered. But it did matter and so Peter, knowing Simon’s motives, rebuked him. The power when granted is a covenant gift of God. A person does not have to be free of sin to ordain any more than I have to be free of sin to baptize another.
You posted the following:
*Yes, Catholic teaching, not Roman teaching.
But I have some questions:
- Do you think a bishop can sin?
- If a sinful bishop lays his hand on a person, is the ordination of that person acceptable?
- Is the merit of the bishop that is making the other person a bishop, or the merits of Christ?*
Your questions:
Yes, a bishop can sin and I’m sure they will all admit to doing so. As you pointed out even Peter sinned in being hypocritical with the Judaizers. And yes, Paul, one of Peter’s chief and senior bishops(Cardinal), upbraided him for it. In spite of Peter’s sin he went on to write two infallible epistles which even Protestants agree are completely free of errors. This is the protection for teaching that the Holy Spirit provides to the Church. It has nothing to do with a person’s personal sin. If it did then “all” teaching would be corrupt and we would have nothing to believe in. And that includes scripture because sinful humans were the instruments God used to write scripture. But we know that scripture is inerrant because God protected the sacred authors from error and provided the inspiration for what they wrote. While there is no new public revelation since the apostles, we believe that the teachings that flow from scripture and tradition that was handed down are protected from error.
If a bishop is sinful and ordains someone, the ordination is still valid. The bishop has to repent of his sins, but scripture does not tell us that his power or authority are rescinded because he has sinned. The Church, in the authority to bind and loose, may strip a bishop of his episcopate and remove him from ministry but he is a priest forever. This does not mean that he will go to heaven. There are probably a fair number of priests and bishops that failed to serve the Lord and chose to serve only themselves, thus winding up on the wrong side of the eternal divide.
The power to ordain is a power from God. Remember in ACTS 8:13-24 when Simon the Magician asked Peter and John to give him the power that comes with the laying on of hands. In this instance Peter rebuked Simon because he knew the Magicians motives and he refused to give him the power associated with the laying of hands. If Simon’s sinfulness would have negated this gift of God it would not have mattered. But it did matter and so Peter, knowing Simon’s motives, rebuked him. The power when granted is a covenant gift of God. A person does not have to be free of sin to ordain any more than I have to be free of sin to baptize another.
P
Pax
Guest
Yaqubos,
You stated and asked:
“Paul is asking Timothy to keep the right teaching. What if Timothy didn’t guard what has been entrusted to him?”
The answer would be that Timothy did not fail, but if he did the “Church” would have corrected him.
This has been the pattern throughout the centuries and it is best illustrated by the establishment of the canon of scripture. The canon of scripture was in question until the 4th Century when the Church confirmed the Catholic Canon at the Councils of Carthage, Hippo, and Rome. The Decree of Pope Damasus was the 4th century papal confirmation of these Councils concerning the Canon. The Canon was confirmed again at the Council of Florence and then later at Trent when Luther raised his challenge.
Note that until those early councils, many thought that certain other books and writings like the letter of Clement were scripture while some doubted that the book of Revelation and other NT scriptures should be included. The debate was settled by Church council just as the debate about circumcision was decided by the apostles at the Council of Jerusalem described in the book of ACTS. When a church Father expressed an opinion on an unsettled question it was always the Church that made the final decision. We quote the Fathers to show that the earliest Christian writings are consistent with Catholic teaching. This is especially clear on such things as the true presence in the Eucharist, baptism, salvation, the Trinity and other important topics.
You stated and asked:
“Paul is asking Timothy to keep the right teaching. What if Timothy didn’t guard what has been entrusted to him?”
The answer would be that Timothy did not fail, but if he did the “Church” would have corrected him.
This has been the pattern throughout the centuries and it is best illustrated by the establishment of the canon of scripture. The canon of scripture was in question until the 4th Century when the Church confirmed the Catholic Canon at the Councils of Carthage, Hippo, and Rome. The Decree of Pope Damasus was the 4th century papal confirmation of these Councils concerning the Canon. The Canon was confirmed again at the Council of Florence and then later at Trent when Luther raised his challenge.
Note that until those early councils, many thought that certain other books and writings like the letter of Clement were scripture while some doubted that the book of Revelation and other NT scriptures should be included. The debate was settled by Church council just as the debate about circumcision was decided by the apostles at the Council of Jerusalem described in the book of ACTS. When a church Father expressed an opinion on an unsettled question it was always the Church that made the final decision. We quote the Fathers to show that the earliest Christian writings are consistent with Catholic teaching. This is especially clear on such things as the true presence in the Eucharist, baptism, salvation, the Trinity and other important topics.
Y
YAQUBOS
Guest
Peace be with you!
You can’t love God without having faith in Jesus Christ FIRST.
In Love,
Yaqubos†
SocaliCatholic said:
You can’t love God without having faith in Jesus Christ FIRST.
In Love,
Yaqubos†
Y
YAQUBOS
Guest
Peace be with you!
RMP:
But our discussions here show how much the HUMAN institutions have changed that truth in their institutions. That’s why, the Catholic Orthodox Church of Christ must stand for the Truth of God and His Word.
In Love,
Yaqubos†
Yes, AMEN! The Catholic Orthodox Church of Christ remains faithful to the Lord, although being herself fallible, because she is made of fallible HUMANS. But God keeps His Truth.
But our discussions here show how much the HUMAN institutions have changed that truth in their institutions. That’s why, the Catholic Orthodox Church of Christ must stand for the Truth of God and His Word.
In Love,
Yaqubos†
Y
YAQUBOS
Guest
Peace be with you!
javelin:
But you want to know the name of the Church where I usually worship the Lord in Spirit and Truth, just to attack that HUMAN background. You proved how much you are unable to talk to a first century Christian! You know why you can’t? Because Satan has made you believe that the Church is NOT ONE!!!
In Love,
Yaqubos†
The fact is that I have respect to all religious leaders of the Church of Christ, and I have learned much of all of them.
But you want to know the name of the Church where I usually worship the Lord in Spirit and Truth, just to attack that HUMAN background. You proved how much you are unable to talk to a first century Christian! You know why you can’t? Because Satan has made you believe that the Church is NOT ONE!!!
In Love,
Yaqubos†
Y
YAQUBOS
Guest
Peace be with you!
Please, can you quote the Scriptural passages where you find that God is saying there is a problem like that?
In Love,
Yaqubos†
beng said:
Please, can you quote the Scriptural passages where you find that God is saying there is a problem like that?
In Love,
Yaqubos†
P
Pax
Guest
Do you really believe this? Are you saying that scripture lies when it says that King David loved God? All of the OT prophets of Israel and the faithful among the people loved God but did not know Jesus.
It is probably more accurate to say that for the NT covenant people, the supernatural gifts of faith, hope, and love are given to us simultaneously, but I think it is incorrect to suggest that those that believe in God, but do not know Jesus (they have not been preached to and evangelized), could not love God.
P
Pax
Guest
Yaqubos,
Unfortunately, the body of Christ is indeed divided. If you read John 17 and Jesus prayers for Christian unity, you cannot help but see a huge difference from what Christ wants and our present reality. If we were “one” we would not be having our discussions which show some of our differences. We would be of one spiritual mind. Jesus wants us to “be one, just as He and the Father are one.”
It is for this reason I often have a heavey heart when I look about the Christian landscape and see the numerous divisions. In a sense, it is the greatest of Christian scandals because our unity is supposed to be a proof that Jesus was sent by the Father. When non-believers look at us they do not see a unity which would provide them with this insight.
E
exrc
Guest
exrc,
Excuse me,I meant a carnal man who calls himself a christian. He believes he is saved when he is dunked in water.
I think it was RMP who equivocated circumcision and water baptism. Anyway, Paul tells us in Romans 2:29 that a true Jew is one who has been circumcised of the heart, not of the flesh.
What is a true Jew you might ask?
It is a messianic, or believer in messiah. A christian!
Paul says essentially that there is no profit in circumcising the flesh. Can you see his point?
It merely points us to the new birth. where God is cutting off the old man (the flesh)symbolized by the foreskin, and our soul is now guided by our spirit because it is alive and fully righteous before God now, and not by our flesh which is corrupt and sinful. Romans 8:8,9,10
Circumcision could not make any Jew righteous. Therefore, equivocating water baptism and circumcision, brings water baptism down to where it should be. Symbolic of what the true saving faith just produced in the second birth. We die with messiah (going in the water), and we are circumcised of the heart, dead and buried in the flesh with messiah (under water), finally we are resurrected with messiah (coming out of the water).
Only faith alone in messiah can produce righteousness, otherwise no OT Jew could have been saved.
If you exclude circumcision and other works of the perfect law of Moses to save OT Jews, there is nothing left but FAITH!
Once again, we are saved by FAITH ALONE!!
I
PAX,
Excuse me,I meant a carnal man who calls himself a christian. He believes he is saved when he is dunked in water.
I think it was RMP who equivocated circumcision and water baptism. Anyway, Paul tells us in Romans 2:29 that a true Jew is one who has been circumcised of the heart, not of the flesh.
What is a true Jew you might ask?
It is a messianic, or believer in messiah. A christian!
Paul says essentially that there is no profit in circumcising the flesh. Can you see his point?
It merely points us to the new birth. where God is cutting off the old man (the flesh)symbolized by the foreskin, and our soul is now guided by our spirit because it is alive and fully righteous before God now, and not by our flesh which is corrupt and sinful. Romans 8:8,9,10
Circumcision could not make any Jew righteous. Therefore, equivocating water baptism and circumcision, brings water baptism down to where it should be. Symbolic of what the true saving faith just produced in the second birth. We die with messiah (going in the water), and we are circumcised of the heart, dead and buried in the flesh with messiah (under water), finally we are resurrected with messiah (coming out of the water).
Only faith alone in messiah can produce righteousness, otherwise no OT Jew could have been saved.
If you exclude circumcision and other works of the perfect law of Moses to save OT Jews, there is nothing left but FAITH!
Once again, we are saved by FAITH ALONE!!
I
Scipture does not distort scripture, it clarifies it. Just like it has just clarified the epistle of James for us.
E
exrc
Guest
RC friends,I was asked to read the gospels over again,and try to understand them in correct context. Well, I ask you to do the same.
Remember, Jesus was speaking to Gods creation in general. While the epistles were written to believers exclusively.
p.s.Francisca,
I really enjoy your posts! You have some great insight. I wanted to mention that because I know you have put much time and effort in to them.
I especiailly liked your thoughts on the sacraments.They could be beautiful if used the proper way, and not as a means for justification.
To my beloved sister in Christ! Dan!
Remember, Jesus was speaking to Gods creation in general. While the epistles were written to believers exclusively.
p.s.Francisca,
I really enjoy your posts! You have some great insight. I wanted to mention that because I know you have put much time and effort in to them.
I especiailly liked your thoughts on the sacraments.They could be beautiful if used the proper way, and not as a means for justification.
To my beloved sister in Christ! Dan!
Y
YAQUBOS
Guest
Peace be with you!
Pax:
“We love, because **He first ** loved us.” ( 1 John 4:19 )
Jesus Christ died for all humans, before His coming and after His coming.
And all Old Testament people had Jesus Christ with SYMBOLS. They believed the Christ to come, as God has promised.
As we always say: it’s all a matter of FAITH. Those OT people who BELIEVED, they SAW the Christ IN FAITH.
“Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, **and he saw it ** and was glad.” ( John 8:56 )
“All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.” ( Hebrews 11:13 )
Be sure that no one will enter Heaven without Jesus.
In Love,
Yaqubos†
Yes, I really BELIEVE this, because God says this.
“We love, because **He first ** loved us.” ( 1 John 4:19 )
Jesus Christ died for all humans, before His coming and after His coming.
And all Old Testament people had Jesus Christ with SYMBOLS. They believed the Christ to come, as God has promised.
As we always say: it’s all a matter of FAITH. Those OT people who BELIEVED, they SAW the Christ IN FAITH.
“Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, **and he saw it ** and was glad.” ( John 8:56 )
“All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.” ( Hebrews 11:13 )
Be sure that no one will enter Heaven without Jesus.
In Love,
Yaqubos†
Y
YAQUBOS
Guest
Peace be with you!
Pax:
In fact, Christ has ONE Bride. A house that is divided in itself cannot stand! If the REAL Church of Christ was divided, then this means the Church doesn’t exist anymore.
But as not all Jews are the real Israel, so all those who are called Christians ( baptized ) are not the real Church.
That real Church is one.
In Love,
Yaqubos†
You have believed the lie of Satan. It is Satan who is making people believe that the Church is not one. That is one of his strategies to destroy the Church! But he will not be able, as long as the Spirit is in us!
In fact, Christ has ONE Bride. A house that is divided in itself cannot stand! If the REAL Church of Christ was divided, then this means the Church doesn’t exist anymore.
But as not all Jews are the real Israel, so all those who are called Christians ( baptized ) are not the real Church.
That real Church is one.
In Love,
Yaqubos†
R
RBushlow
Guest
Unfortunately no where in Holy Scripture does it say that. Scripture tells us exactly the opposite when it says in James 2:24 “you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith alone”?
May the peace of Our Lord Jesus Christ be with you always.
M
MariaG
Guest
Since the Real Church of Christ is the Catholic Church What would that make you?
The Bible also tells us not to hide our light. Since the Catholic Church is the only visible church from apostolic times, that would make any church claiming to be that “hidden” church a liar. There is no such thing as a hidden church Church of Christ. God’s people place themselves on the front lines. God’s people proclaim the truth and let the light shine. The Catholic Church is the only church that has done that since the time of the Apostles.
Other churches claim that the “winners” wrote history. But the bible tells us that the church will never fail. If the Church of Christ is not the Catholic Church, then Scripture lied. Don’t hide your light. There have always been Catholic Christians who have shone brightly from the time of the apostles.
Where was your church during apostolic times and ever since? If it had to hide itself from “false” Christians who persecuted them, doesn’t that contradict the Bible about not hiding your light?
Satan *is *a great deceiver. The greatest lie he has been able to perpetuate is that the Catholic Church is not the Church of Christ. May God have mercy on those who continue to spout Satan’s lies.
May God shine His light on you,
Maria
R
RMP
Guest
I never made this claim, this is your own presumption. Was jesus circumcised? If so, it was not pointless. that was may point.
this makes no sense. If it were true, All jews had faith in a messiah, therefore they would all by saved anyways.
Jesus never tells us to exclude circumcision and works ever.
If the sacraments are not a means of justification they ARE useless. Your ideas are unbiblical. you cant have it both ways. Christ would not institute worthless, symbolic gestures with no meaning. That would be deception. You accuse the lord of deception in every action of Jesus recorded in the scripture.
B
beng
Guest
God has no problem with it.
We have a problem with it because of our limited understanding.
We also have a problem with Trinity because of our understanding. God, does not. If you say that you don’t have a problem with Trinity please explain the Trinity correctly and perfectly to me.
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