The Real reason why one cannot be saved by faith alone.

[beng]

francisca:

If Justifying faith is NOT confidence in Divine Mercy which remits sins for Christ’s sake, I don’t know what it is.

Because a mere confidence doesn’t prove anything. You can be confidence that you got all the answer in the exam right. But mere confidence alone does not mean that you got all the answer correct.

The bible tells us to trust nothing but God alone. Anyone trust God : this “trust” saves him. You can find dozens of scriptures to back this from Psalms alone.

Psalms 22
4 In you our fathers put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.[not because they “worked”, but because they “trusted” that God “delivered” them - francisca]
5 They cried to you and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not disappointed.

Yes. We are to trust in God. The point is that we should not use that trust and that confidence as a GUARANTEED that we are saved. Why?

1. You don’t know the future. There are plenty of righteous people who turn bad in later years even if at first they were so sure that they will not turn away from God.
2. To not be presumptious. Being presumptious is the most important reason. The Pharisee was reprimanded by Jesus because they think they inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, that they are guaranted the Kingdom as long as they do this and that. And even know under the law of grace, we should not be presumptious that we are guaranteed the Kingdom of Heaven. We have to have FAITH. Faith is trusting something that we do not know.
3. By having FAITH instead of confidence to hold on to, we are being humble in front of God. We rely on the mercy of God to make us worthy. Everyday we work out our salvation in fear and trembling (Phil 2:12).
4. Again, as I said, one person can fool themselves to be confidence on something. At one time I was so confidence on my test and this one friend of mine was not. He got better result than me. So “confidence” is very subjective emotion. And we know that emotion is just brain chemicals. Drinking the right drug you can make yourself depressed or even too confidence on something.

I trust in Divine Mercy : “Divine Mercy, I trust in You !”

I don’t know what you’re getting at. Trusting something is not a guaranteed. I trusted my accountant with my money, yet he ran away with $50,000 of my securities.

Again, I have to emphasize that I’m not saying that we should not trust. We SHOULD trust God and His divine mercy. But we do not make that trust as a guaranteed measure for our salvation.

Don’t you think that those who denies faith sounds similar to this verse :

I do not deny faith. In fact I’m telling you to have faith. What is having faith? Having faith is believing something that you do not know. Confidence is being 100% certain. The two are different.

Psalm 22:8
“He trusts in the LORD; let the LORD rescue him. Let him deliver him , since he delights in him.”

“Trust” is also believing without knowing for certain. It’s not confidence.

This scriptures is fulfilled on the cross :

cont below

 

[beng]

Matthew 27

41In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him. 42"He saved others," they said, "but he can’t save himself! He’s the King of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. 43He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’ "[let him be anathema ! Anathema means to condemn somebody in order to save his soul (1Cor 5:5). The chief priests did not realize of what they are doing but their words & action exactly means anathematized Jesus. Literal meaning of anathema is “to be placed on high, to be suspended” just like “The Son of Man lifted up” - francisca] 44In the same way the robbers who were crucified with him also heaped insults on him.
Something wrong with the sentence structure above. I do not comprehend it.

John 3:14
And just as Moses lifted up 5 the serpent in the desert, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,

John 12
32 And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself."
33 He said this indicating the kind of death he would die.

So Jesus was died lifted up. He was anathematized.
Trent’s canon 12 on Justification say that anyone who say “Divine Mercy, I trust in you” is anathematized.

You really need to re-arrange your sentence. I can’t comprehend fully what you’re writing. But I’ll try to understand as best as I could.

Yes, Jesus was anathemized. He was condemned to death. Are you saying just because Jesus was anathemized and condemned to death than we should not anathemize and condemn anyone? Well, Jesus was also condemn for blasphemy agianst God, then, shall we stop condemning people who blaspheme against God?

There’s nothing wrong with anathema and condemnation. In fact Paul anathemized and condemned in his letter.

The Trent Canon anathemize anyone who are being presumptious (having 100% confidence) in the divine mercy. It’s as if this person is saying that, “I can do anything I want. God is divinely merciful, He will spare me”. Is this the attitude which deserve salvation?

In this present day, after God reveal to us about faith in His Mercy, we understand that whoever trust in His Divine Mercy has to be crucified with Christ. Being crucified with Christ, we are die of all of trespasses of the flesh and reborn again of the spirit.

In this new light the church must surrender herself to her Spouse who is God the Holy Spirit.

What are you getting at?

The Holy Father Pope John Paul II give his new book an interesting title : “Rise, let us be on our way” (to the cross) : that this is our time to trust the Lord totally surrender to His hand so that we can be saved. But not without Christ that we take our cross but with Him who has done it all for us. So let us be crucified with Christ : meaning to trust God totally in Christ : to put confidence in Divine Mercy that remits our sins for Christ’s sake.

[contiune…]

Give me the source of your quote especially the one “to put confidence in Divine Mercy that remits our sins fro Christ’s sake”

Even if he does write it you have to understand that confidence doesn’t always mean 100% confidence. What we can’t have and what is anathemized by Trent is 100% confidence. 100% confidence is NO FAITH AT ALL. If you know for sure about something, that is not faith.

 

[Pax]

francisca:

I don’t want to deny works. I just want to focus on Christ instead of my own works, and hoping that I will RECEIVE grace that would change my works as much as it has changed my heart. This is what I mean. The change of heart is the key, everything else will follow.

God bless you Pax.

Now on this score I completely agree. If we focus on the Lord and love the Lord with our whole heart, mind, spirit, and strength then whatever works that follow will truly be from God.

It isn’t that the Catholics on this thread are placing emphasis on their works. I make no claims for the “good” things that I might happen to do. Instead, I stake all my claims on the Lord and His bountiful grace. It is from His hand that I have the strength to even attempt to conform my life to His love.

Our only point, all along, has been that the works of grace must accompany the gift of faith, or our faith is dead.

Some non-Catholics(not on these forums) have criticized Mother Therese of Calcutta. They make the claim that she thought her works of charity would get her into heaven. Some have even suggested that she is not saved, and they use her as the Catholic example of works righteousness. This is a terrible injustice to the Church and to Mother Therese. If her non-Catholic critics had an appreciation for what she accomplished in spite of incredible obstacles, they would know that she did everything by faith and out of total love of God. If her critics knew the miracles associated with her work, they would know that it was all by the grace of God. If her critics knew of her prayer life, they would know that it was all by the grace of God. If they had only read her writings and known what she says about love of God and neighbor, they would know that it was all by the grace of God. If her critics knew of her devotion to Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament, they would know that it was all by the grace of God. Everything in our Christian walk is by grace.

Only the Catholic Church, the body of Christ crucified, could produce a Mother Therese of Calcutta. Mother Therese did what she did in response to God’s call and only by virtue of God’s mercy and grace. No one could have endured what she endured and worked in the pitiable conditions every day of her life if not by the grace of God. No one could administer to the dying among the poorest of the poor without the hand of the Almighty providing His loving blessing. She was called and her love of God is an example to us all. She was so much like Jesus in her love of the Father and her fellow man. God not only used her as a holy instrument among the poor, but as His instrument of example in faith, hope, and love. for the whole of mankind.

 

[beng]

francisca:

How can it be false if one put confidence in God? God is the highest Truth. Nothing can be more truthful than God in Jesus Christ. Therefore Jesus said “I am The Truth”. Despite of anything, our faith in Jesus is always truthful. Anything deny this betray Christ. For if one is not confident in God then in what else is he confident with? The answer : Man who does not have confidence in God, has nothing to trust at all. He will be like a house on a shaken ground. His stand is never secure.

God is truth. But you are a human. Human have weakness. For this precise reason Jesus and Paul condemned the misguided Jews who told people to live up the law perfectly.

We believe in God will be truthful but we can not even believe ourselves. Take some introspection. How many promises you have broken to your friends, your families? Most importantly, how many sins you have comitted even after you have promised that you will not repeat them?

By realizing our weakness and imperfection yet strugling everyday for perfection, we shall please God.

You don’t understand. You put your trust in humans. God always on your side if you believe Him. But your girl friend is a human being. You are bound to love because God has loved you first. You can’t bind anyone to love. We are bound to love others but cannot insist that anyone should “love me” and give whatever “I want” because God is “on my side”. This is not what it means.

Maybe that was a bad analogy. I shouldn’t have said that my girlfriend betrays me, but it is I who betray my girlfriend. Maybe I said to her now that I will be truthful. But who knows a year from now I found a better girl.

And by having a 100% confidence that you will be saved isn’t that putting your trust on your human self? Can you be sure that you will not forsake God? How many sins have you comitted? every sins comitted is every time you forsake God.

To believe in God means this : that we walk in God’s path always (in the ups and downs of life), not by my own strength but by God’s strength (this means BEYOND my own strength).

Precisely! Not by our own strength but by God’s strenght. Why? Because we are weak. We ALWAYS fail. How can we be sure that we will not fail? We can’t! But if we put our trust in God, He will not fail us. We can not put the trust on ourselves and said that we will always stay true. That’s arrogant and presumptious.

It is important to understand that to put confidence in God is not the same as “always get what I want the way I want it when I want it”. This is not confidence in God but confidence in ones own desire.

That is why you can not have 100% certainty inspite of your weakness. A desire to have 100% certainty is just can not be. You are weak and can fail. God realize this (that’s why Jesus was sent) and now you must be humble and realize this also.

continue below

 

[beng]

Final

Confidence in God’s Mercy means ALWAYS HOPE and does not stop hoping because “I believe” “despite of anything”.And this walk I walk in His divine providence so that I can rest assured that I will finally reach “the land”, win the war agaist my sins and be free and alive truly.

Yes. Always hope. Hope is for something that is unseen. If I’m 100% assured that I’ll get to Heaven what is there to hope for? (Rom 8:24)

Until I finished the race I can not be 100% sure that I will reach the finish line. But when I do I will gladly say: “I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.” (2Ti 4:7

And I am expecting Him coming anytime. I am expecting Him in confidence of His Faithfulness.

The keyword is “His faithfulness.” We can be sure of that. But we can not be sure of OUR faithfulness.

Even rightnow I am on my sickbed, in great debt, broken hearted, paralysed, jailed, drugged, didn’t pass the exam, just dropped out from school… I expect Him coming : I cry for His Help, and I know that He will come to help me in this life. I have great confidence in Him despite my situation, my wrongdoing, my past, my sins.

May God bless you Beng.

Your use of the word “expect” makes it seem like you’re DEMANDING something from God. That’s a very Pharisical attitude.

 

[SocaliCatholic]

To those “saved by faith alone”

Which is greater: to have faith in God or to love God?

 

[mrS4ntA]

francisca:

CANON XII - If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ’s sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema

If Justifying faith is NOT confidence in Divine Mercy which remits sins for Christ’s sake, I don’t know what it is.

…
So you *ARE *against a Canon of Trent? Doesn’t that put you into the category of “him” who should be let to be anathema, then?

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

YAQUBOS:

*Peace be with you!

Notes:

1. The Church in the first centuries didn’t need to say SOLA, because all agreed about Salvation by faith. But the protestants needed to say SOLA, because of the corruption in the Roman Church in those times.
2. Even if all the Fathers didn’t understand the Scripture, this doesn’t mean that the Scripture is wrong and that they are right!

But read the following:

"And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever.* Amen.

What shall we do, then, brethren? Shall we become slothful in well-doing, and cease from the practice of love? God forbid that any such course should be followed by us! But rather let us hasten with all energy and readiness of mind to perform every good work. For the Creator and Lord of all Himself rejoices in His works. For by His infinitely great power He established the heavens, and by His incomprehensible wisdom He adorned them." ( The First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians, Chapters XXXII and XXXIII )

There is an important idea in these lines of Clement: that we must have God as an example for us to good works. Did you ever ask yourself why God does all things GOOD ( good works ) although He doesn’t need Salvation?

We who are born of the Spirit, we have a new nature that LOVES to do good works, although we are not saved by those good works.

N.B.: Clement of Rome lived long before the 16th century…

In Love,
Yaqubos†

Pax:

Sorry Yaqubos, but you are grasping at straws and you misunderstand the Fathers just as you misunderstand scripture. It is ludicrous for any of us to assume that we know scripture better than they did.

Sorry, Pax, but it is clear why you want to deny the fact that ONLY God explains His Word to establish your own interpretation. You are doing the same thing with the fathers…

The quote of Clement is more than clear.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

beng:

So, Yqaqubus, I call you a Protestant. If you’re carnal then you will reject it. Let’s see.

Unlike you, I am not rejecting being protestant because I am in another denomination. But I say I am NOT protestant because in fact and in truth I am not protestant.

I love protestants very much. Many among them are my brothers and sisters in Christ.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

beng:

God doesn’t need salvation because he’s infinetely good and perfect. Men need salvation because of the fall. If men did not fall, they wouldn’t need salvation (but then again, if men did not fall then we would not experience the greater blessing)

What did the Christ come to do?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

beng:

God doesn’t need salvation because he’s infinetely good and perfect. Men need salvation because of the fall. If men did not fall, they wouldn’t need salvation (but then again, if men did not fall then we would not experience the greater blessing)

What have the Christ come to do?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

beng:

Because in a technical sense you can not have 100% grace. That would make human a robot. And also, that would make Calvin right in stating that God saves some people and then damned some people to hell. Even Luther, thanks to his erroneous theology, start saying how free will is a fiction.

You turn and turn and return to human teachers. I asked you where you find a problem in Scripture about that?

In Love,

Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

Pax:

I have to take a break so my son can use the computer.

Before returning to the discussions I would like to first extend an apology to anyone that I may have irritated or offended. I can be overly aggressive and impetuous and for this I apologize to Yaqubos and exrc. I want to especially apologize to Francisca, because I do think I may have irritated you in particular.

Anyway, I will be back and I will be careful about my manners.

Pax

The Lord bless you, my friend!

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[exrc]

RBushlow:

RMP,

Don’t fall for his claims. Exrc never was a Catholic; he has no understanding of even the basic tenets of the Church and more often than not regurgitates the erroneous beliefs of anti-Catholics. In short, I believe he is claiming to have been Catholic in order to lend some credence to these erroneous statements. Let us keep him in our prayers.

May the peace of Christ be with you.

And you also,

If you would like proof of me being raised strictly rc, then I will give you all the info. you need to do it.

Call ST. Bernards parish in Buffalo, N.Y. on the corner of S.Ogden+ Clinton ST. they should have all the records you need. My parents still go there.

Post your e-mail address and I will send you my name.

In love, exrc!

 

[exrc]

Pax:

I have to take a break so my son can use the computer.

Before returning to the discussions I would like to first extend an apology to anyone that I may have irritated or offended. I can be overly aggressive and impetuous and for this I apologize to Yaqubos and exrc. I want to especially apologize to Francisca, because I do think I may have irritated you in particular.

Anyway, I will be back and I will be careful about my manners.

Pax

PAX, peace be with you my friend.

You have not offended me in the slightest!

I was not trying to make fun of you by the way.

I am not attacking anyone on this forum.Only the apostate system which you belong to.I love rc’s but I loath the satanic system that holds you in bondage, as it did me.

Let them hear O LORD, the sound of freedom!

In love ,exrc!

 

[exrc]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

Sorry, Pax, but it is clear why you want to deny the fact that ONLY God explains His Word to establish your own interpretation. You are doing the same thing with the fathers…

The quote of Clement is more than clear.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

AMEN,brother YAQUBOS!

Abundantly!! more than clear.

Love and blessings to you, and peace! exrc:clapping:

 

[Sarah_Jane]

I am not attacking anyone on this forum.Only the apostate system which you belong to.I love rc’s but I loath the satanic system that holds you in bondage, as it did me.

You attack us when you say we belong a satanic system!

 

[exrc]

mrS4ntA:

not by faith alone… it was by ADHERING to the commandments and God gave them. i.e. the Law God gave through Moses.

Wrong!Again,Paul tells us that we are not saved by works of the Mosaic law in Eph.2:8. How can they be and we not? You use this when it is convenient for you. Conversely, how can we be saved by water and they not?

Their covenant was signed by the circumsision of every 8-day old infants. That’s their “baptism”!!/

Interesting!

Are you equivocating circumcision with water baptism?

If you are, you are correct! For they are outward signs to unbelievers that something has happened inside. Only if you obey the law, as we see in Romans 2:25-29.Otherwise we dishonor God, and our circumcision/baptism profits us not.

Circumcision of the flesh makes you a physical Jew. no profit.

Circumcision of the heart makes you a spiritual Jew. much profit!

Baptism of the flesh makes you a carnal christian. no profit

Baptism of the heart through faith makes you a spiritually alive christian. much profit!

This is done by the washing of the word and Spirit. John 3:5

In love ,exrc

 

[Sarah_Jane]

The necessity of water baptism is a normative rather than an absolute necessity.

“Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, are saved even if they have not been baptized” (CCC, 1281)

 

[RBushlow]

exrc:

And you also,

If you would like proof of me being raised strictly rc, then I will give you all the info. you need to do it.

Call ST. Bernards parish in Buffalo, N.Y. on the corner of S.Ogden+ Clinton ST. they should have all the records you need. My parents still go there.

Post your e-mail address and I will send you my name.

In love, exrc!

Then how is it that your statements about Church are so at odds with what her teachings?