The Real reason why one cannot be saved by faith alone.

[beng]

YAQUBOS:

Peace!

Once you say it’s Grace ALONE, and then you say it’s not 100% Grace. Can you please tell me what is the meaning of the word “ALONE” for you?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

Do you believe in Free Will?

 

[beng]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

beng, read again the replies about salvation by Grace ALONE, and you will see how you disagree with many of your friends here…

I don’t see it. Point it out to me.

By the way: A and B don’t decide who is right. God decides that. All who believe His Word and are born again, they are children of God, and we don’t need to put them in categories.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

Both A and B claim that their understanding is reveal by God. The Spirit is not a spirit of disunity. God will decide which is right. Can’t be both.

 

[RMP]

YAQUBOS http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/statusicon_cad/user_offline.gif vbmenu_register(“postmenu_262299”, true);
Regular Member
Join Date: September 9, 2004
Posts: 213

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon1.gif Re: The Real reason why one cannot be saved by faith alone.
Peace be with you!
“Go, stand and speak to the people in the temple the whole message of this Life.” ( Acts 5:20 )

“BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.”" ( Romans 1:17 )

The righteous shall LIVE by faith, and not DIE! That means he will be righteous by faith, and then LIVE by faith. Living by faith means living practically the righteousness of God

YAQUBOS,
Your quotes of scripture are irrelevent to the ideas you cling too. Paul is talking about life AFTER Baptism. BEFORE BAPTISM we have no spiritual life, we are not born again. BUT, These people had faith in GOD BEFORE baptism, but they did not have santifying GRACE. JUDAISM IS PROOF OF THAT. With this grace they become Righteous. ARE they saved without baptism because of faith? no. Therefore the sacrament of baptism IS neccessary, the only exception is baptim by desire, intention of becoming Baptised. ONCE baptised, Paul calls us the REMEMBER this spiritual rebirth and LIVE by its CALL. To live LIVE is to act, do, not do sin, share, love, etc.
YOU take the WHOLE christian faith and diminish to a mere conscious, intellectual assent. YOU reduce the faith to nothing but a thought: An idea of the mind. A presumption.

“Im saved” , (A FALSE PREMISE REFERING TO THE PAST TENSE). YOU ARE NOT IN HEAVEN YET. PLEASE EXPLAIN. Totally irrational.

 

[beng]

francisca:

Beng, you quotes so many.

Just explain to me Trent’s canon 12 on Justification

May God bless you Beng.

CANON XII - If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ’s sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema

If you say that the faith that justified you is nothing more than mere confidence in the mercy of God then you are anathemize. This confidence does not make you justify. You can be 100% sure that you’re saved. Many heretics feel this way too. But their errors make us believe that they’re going no where but hell. (Ex: Luther, Mohamad)

Any man can fool him/herself into having false confidence. We see this everytime. You feel so sure you’re going to ace the test. You feel so sure that she/he will love you back. You feel so sure that you could win the race. But in the end, you only got 70% on the test, your girl/boyfriend is cheating with someone else, you lost the race.

Thus, confidence is not the perfect measurement of justifying faith. In fact many people MAKE themselves confident to give them an edge over many things (like the test, love relationship and race above).

 

[beng]

francisca:

Did I say “you are not saved” ?

This is your own percenption.[/quyote]
No, it is the Church’s perception.

2181 The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants) or dispensed by their own pastor.119 Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin.

Are you going against the Holy Mother Church, which is the Body of Christ? Do you remember what the third commandment say?

I believe that the sacraments are holy. However, knowing that God is total goodness makes me think that there is noway that sacraments can work well with condemnations. There are many mistakes on how grace is administered in the church. All condemnations to believers are in direct opposition to Paul’s teaching that “there should be no more condemnations for those who are in Christ Jesus”. For Jesus has set us free. Let the law condemn sin alone, but not sinners who believe.

Suppose I don’t go to mass, I am condemned. Then I come. But I do not know whether I come because I believe or because I am afraid of condemnation. Sure fear of God is the begining of wisdom. But what about “growing in faith”. Does this term “growing in faith” is also full of “our own faithfulness” or, rather, “knowing God’s faithfulness”

?
The sacrament shall not condemn you. Your disobedience and negligence are the one that will condemn you.

And fear of God is the beginning of faith. Fear lead you to obedience and it will make you learn the love of God. It’s a Biblical virtue.

The important thing for you is to go to Mass because God has directly said that we should honor Holy Days. It would be preferable if you go to Mass because you love it (and I and so is many people do), but even if you don’t love it than you should go because you fear of God’s wrath. Even if you go because of fear you nevertheless go to Mass, which can do nothing but good for you. That is why it’s said that “fear is the beginning of faith.” If human doesn’t fear God they will ignore Him.

If no one fear Him than no one will go to Mass, from there on how can they learn to have faith and love him?

Fear toward God IS GOOD.

The humanist has taught how bad is fear on a human level. Which is not incorrect. However we still need fear. We need to fear to jump of 100 stories building. We need to fear to jump in lake Michigan when the temperature is 38 degree. We need to fear driving 100 mph on a busy street. Those fears SHALL SAVE US from being made human scramble egg, from being a living popsicle and from getting into accident + jail time (not to mention you may kill people too).

You have misconception of fear especially fear of God. And you should learn to correct that.

 

[SocaliCatholic]

YAQUBOS,

Do you believe we have FREE WILL?

 

[exrc]

YAQUBOS,
Your quotes of scripture are irrelevent to the ideas you cling too. Paul is talking about life AFTER Baptism. BEFORE BAPTISM we have no spiritual life, we are not born again. BUT, These people had faith

in GOD BEFORE baptism, but they did not have santifying GRACE. JUDAISM IS PROOF OF THAT. With this grace they become Righteous
Are you saying here that faith + water baptism together cause the Holy Spirit to be poured out on a person or make them born -again. If so then Acts 10:44-48 should be dismissed as heresy by Luke.

.

ARE they saved without baptism because of faith? no. Therefore the sacrament of baptism IS neccessary,

The whole OT is a perfect example of how faith alone is the only common thread for salvation.

OT jews were never water baptized in the name of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

AND, christians are not justified by obeying the mosaic law.

Faith alone is proven once again!!!

Let those who have ears hear!!

In Love ,exrc

 

[exrc]

Catholic friends,

Here are a few questions for you.

How many of your sins did Jesus pay for?

If you said all, then what sin could possibly separate you from your salvation?

Is any sin greater than his sacrifice?

In love ,exrc

 

[RBushlow]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!
You suppose all this because you think this was FIRST believed with the protestants. But in fact this was the teaching of the Church in the first centuries, and this was believed by many before Martin Luther.

Peace be with you also.
I do not suppose it, I have read their writings. Ignatius of Antioc, born 50 AD, taught by Peter and John, gives ample evidence of the beliefs of the first century Church. Polycarp is another, also the Didache containing the teaching of the Apostles. No the Church Councils espouse Sola Fide. If I am incorrect, please point to some 1st and 2nd century writings or early Church Councils supporting Sola Fide. If not back that far, how about 2nd or 3rd century? None available, let’s look for 4th or 5th or 6th century examples of Sola Fide doctrine. I do not believe that you will find any for the first 16 centuries.

Your brother in Christ.

 

[RMP]

These people had faith (a Grace) in GOD BEFORE baptism, but they did not have santifying GRACE. … ARE they saved without baptism because of faith? no. Therefore the sacrament of baptism IS neccessary…
exrc

Quote:Are you saying here that faith + water baptism together cause the Holy Spirit to be poured out on a person or make them born -again.

I said nothing about faith giving santifying grace. I said they had grace to have faith.

If so then Acts 10:44-48 should be dismissed as heresy by Luke.

Only if you believe they were saved by their faith at that moment. why then were they then baptised. what would have been the point to that?When Peter spoke, they reponded to the grace of the word, the grace compelled them to accept the truth and be baptised. The Baptism confered the GRACE they had faith to believe in.
Quote:

RMP ARE they saved without baptism because of faith? no. Therefore the sacrament of baptism IS neccessary.

exrc The whole OT is a perfect example of how faith alone is the only common thread for salvation.OT jews were never water baptized in the name of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

No. The OT shows an urgent need for Baptism and redemption through christ. The GRACE is confered by the act (baptism), not the faith. The act of baptism signifies what actually occurrs in the interior and spiritual transformation of the believers, the faith only recognizes the truth of it.

 

[exrc]

RMP:

No. The OT shows an urgent need for Baptism and redemption through christ

No, it shows the OT Jews were saved by faith alone in messiah alone. Paul makes that very clear in eph.2:8

Did they need to be baptized for salvation?No.

Neither do we! God has never changed his plan of salvation.

Should we be baptized? Yes, but not to be justified, only obedient.

This is one place romans run into a brick wall.

.

The GRACE is confered by the act (baptism), not the faith. The act of baptism signifies what actually occurrs in the interior and spiritual transformation of the believers, the faith only recognizes the truth of it.

Is receiving the Holy Spirit an act of grace?

If so, then cornelius’ family received the fullness of Gods grace before their water baptism. Then they were water baptized out of obedience. You see, you can only be obedient after you are made alive in Christ, and they knew they were. By faith alone!

As you can see ,water baptism doesn’t save.

Faith responding to grace saves.

The Holy Spirit does not enter the unregenerate. Therefore, they had to be saved before baptism.

1265 ccc is also proven wrong with this passage.

In love ,exrc!

 

[RMP]

exrc, There isnt one single Apostolic father in history to support your beliefs. I need say no more, Your last post proves your formal apostesy.

Baptism out of obedience! There is more to Baptism than a visual stage show. Your very own salvation depends on it…How ironic your view is… when Jesus says “this is my body”…“you are ROCK”. Your obedience seems to slips away so easily too. Do you even hear the lord Jesus himself? everything jesus SAYS DRAWS us to GOD. Jesus does not ever speak w/o purpose.

Jesus says " unless you are born of spirit and water"…“unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life in you.” BUT exrc, stands firmly and says “UNTRUE!”

Satans snare is wrapped tightly around your neck, your only hope is that what Jesus says, he says in truth. Its time to listen to Jesus and the men he chose to follow him. Those men reside in the ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, and APOSTOLIC church.

 

[eleusis]

jimmy:

You can’t make a distinction between the faith of the demons and your faith. They are the same. The only difference is that they have no good works.

Faith is the belief in what is not known for certain.The demons don’t need mankind’s faith, they have supernatural knowledge of God.

 

[RMP]

Faith is the belief in what is not known for certain.

Then how can someone be certain of his own salvation?

The demons don’t need mankind’s faith, they have supernatural knowledge of God

They also have a lack of faith in GOD. Through baptism we receive supernatural grace, which enables supernatural faith.

 

[exrc]

]

RMP:

exrc, There isnt one single Apostolic father in history to support your beliefs. I need say no more, Your last post proves your formal apostesy

How did Jews get saved in the old test?Not by water baptism!!!
AND,not by eating the abomidable Jesus cracker!!! It was by faith ALONE!!!

Baptism out of obedience! There is more to Baptism than a visual stage show

You are right! when I was water baptized as an adult for REAL out of obedience, the Lord bestowed upon me a special blessing. Which I noticed Immediately.

. Your very own salvation depends on it…

Wrong! The thief on the cross was not baptized, and did not ask to be! Shall I quote it?

How ironic your view is… when Jesus says “this is my body”…“you are ROCK”. Your obedience seems to slips away so easily too. Do you even hear the lord Jesus himself? everything jesus SAYS DRAWS us to GOD. Jesus does not ever speak w/o purpose.

Who said it was without purpose!

We are supposed to remember what he did for us at the Lords supper,not eat him. That is a very good purpose!

Transubstantiation? You’ve lost your mind!!

Jesus says " unless you are born of spirit and water"…"

Jesus referred not to literal water here but to the need for “cleansing” (e.g.,Ezekial 36:24-27). When water is used figuratively in the OT, it habitually refers to renewal or spiritual cleansing, especially when used in conjunction with “spirit” (Num 19:17-19; Ps.51:9,10; Is.32:15; 44:3-5;55:1-3; Jer.2:13; Joel 2:28,29).Thus, Jesus made reference to the spiritual washing or purification of the soul, accomplished by the Holy Spirit through the Word of God at the moment of salvation.(cf. Eph.5:26;Titus 3:5),required for belonging to His kingdom.

Satans snare is wrapped tightly around your neck, your only hope is that what Jesus says, he says in truth. Its time to listen to Jesus and the men he chose to follow him. Those men reside in the ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, and APOSTOLIC church.

Let those who have ears HEAR!!!

Thank God I’m not rc anymore!! Love Dan!

 

[Pax]

exrc:

Catholic friends,

Here are a few questions for you.

How many of your sins did Jesus pay for?

If you said all, then what sin could possibly separate you from your salvation?

Is any sin greater than his sacrifice?

In love ,exrc

exrc

Answer number one = yes

Answer number two = any serious sin

Answer number three = No

Now, none of your questions have done anything for anyone. You have something in your mind that is driving your thinking but it does not encompass the entire truth.

Many more questions could be added that might “begin” to fill out the truth.

Let’s try just a couple:

Do you have to repent of each and every sin you commit?
Do you have to love God?

You are simply on a different wave length. Try the gospels first. Read every word of Jesus over and over. Then try understanding Paul in that context. Try all of scripture.

 

[Pax]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

You suppose all this because you think this was FIRST believed with the protestants. But in fact this was the teaching of the Church in the first centuries, and this was believed by many before Martin Luther. And those who believed the Bible were persecuted by the Romans.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

This is simply not true!!!

 

[Pax]

francisca:

You people of knowledge but refuse to understand.

John Paul II quoted Jesus saying : “Rise, let us be on our way”

He said that we shall not be overcome by the spirit of fear (of errors), but to trust God totally just like Jesus who was about to be crucified said to His disciples “Rise, let us be on our way”, so we must let God lead us to the place where only Him know. This is what JP II said to his episcopates.

Trust God in Jesus totally, surrender to His hand, that is what the present pope instruct us. Follow his pastoral guidance!

You who insist on obedience, listen to what God has promised you, and believe it with an obedient heart. This is what obedience means : that you obey your faith in Jesus. This is what it means to be the children of obedience : believe God in Jesus Christ.

Stop thinking about “politics” and don’t ever think about “how we win the arguments against the protestants”. God does not care about any of these things. His purpose is salvation of souls. Purify your thoughts then start to re-read what the church is trying to teach us in Vatican II documents.

God bless.

Francisca,

Please stop. I do not live in fear. I do, however, understand what is due God. You do not know the meaning of “the obedience of faith.” Faith is a gift from God. The obedience of faith means that once we believe in God and all that He has revealed to us, then we follow His loving commands. We do not do this out of fear. We do this out of love. Those that do not know, love, and thus serve God will never be with Him in heaven.

I would like to know where I entertained politics in my thoughts. Perhaps you could enlighten me.

If you believe that Vatican II is trying to teach that we are saved by “faith alone” then you have misunderstood the Council. Make no mistake, no Catholic that has addressed posts on this thread believes that we are saved without faith. No Catholic that has addressed posts on this thread believes that we can do good works outside of the faith that is given to us from God.

It is the Catholics on this thread that have insisted that we must love God in order to be saved. Even love of God is a super natural gift by grace. Everything flows from God including our works. All we are saying is what James says which we have quoted many times. I ask you…why are you arguing with us when we quote the apostle James? You are really arguing with James. You are really arguing with scripture. You are really arguing with the Church. We are merely reiterating the constant teaching of the Church from the day of Pentecost.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

beng:

In a way it’s.

And in another way it is not by Grace ALONE?

beng:

Please don’t play dumb. Or do you want me to insult your inteligence?

All along this topic people are asking for the expression “faith ALONE”… Do I not have the right to ask for the expression “Grace ALONE” when you talk about it?

By the way: I don’t want you to insult anyone. But you are not able to do this until you are born of the Spirit.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace!

beng:

Depending on the person. I will take negatively if called Protestant.

Yes, depending on the person. If he is carnal or natural man, he will take negatively if called Protestant.

In Love,

Yaqubos†