The rise of the Pentecostals

[just_came_back]

You do realize that the Catholic Church is already in dialogue with Pentecostal Christians? See the Joint International Commission for Catholic–Pentecostal Dialogue at the Vatican Website. See also DIALOGUE WITH PENTECOSTALS at ewtn.com.

Have no problem with dialogue but when I hear pentecostals like Rodney Howard-Browne, you know the mr. Holy Ghost bartender as he calls himself, say he wants all Catholics to get on board with his laughing spirit…uh no.

See, again all in love, I know of a lot of pentes that will try to convert catholics, but yet we don’t try to do that and when we do, well…let’s just say, again in love, it’s not as flamboyant. Trust me, as a former pente, I remember the days of door to door knocking.

 

[ltwin]

With no offense to our pentecostal brother, and at least he’s not a oneness pentecostal. They are…well, nuff said.

We defend our faith with the utmost militance because we believe in it so. The Bible itself is not meant to please, it is meant as a two-edged sword, and we base every belief on that. We are not sorry if it offends, because to be offended at the Church is the same as being offended by Jesus.

We will defend and we will share our beliefs in the hopes that the Holy Spirit leads all men to the fullness of truth. Somehow Catholics are not supposed to defend what we believe so that we can all be nice and play fairly. No. This is eternal. This is salvation and THIS is God.

We want the world to know it! Again, no hard feelings, but we will defend what is ours through the majestic calling of Jesus Christ.

I’m not offended by the Catholic Church or Catholics defending what they believe. I respect any Christian who is committed to his faith enough to stand up for it. What I regret is language that states or suggests that groups that are clearly Christian are somehow not. I also clearly get aggravated with people judging Pentecostals on beliefs that are shared by many more Christians than just Pentecostals. Many Christians believe in conversion experiences. Many Christians believe in “second works of grace” (some call this Spirit baptism others use other names like sanctification). Many Christians believe that the Eucharist is symbolic and that Christ is spiritually (not physically) present. To say that because of these beliefs Pentecostals are somehow sub-Christian just doesn’t make a lot of sense.

Itwin—

You do a nice job of explaining Pentecostal beliefs and practices in a clear and charitable way.

Thank you AbideWithMe. I didn’t mean to turn this thread into a discussion of Pentecostal theology, but I felt I couldn’t let such uninformed comments about the “Christianness” of Pentecostals to stand unchallenged.

 

[just_came_back]

I’m not offended by the Catholic Church or Catholics defending what they believe. I respect any Christian who is committed to his faith enough to stand up for it. What I regret is language that states or suggests that groups that are clearly Christian are somehow not. I also clearly get aggravated with people judging Pentecostals on beliefs that are shared by many more Christians than just Pentecostals. Many Christians believe in conversion experiences. Many Christians believe in “second works of grace” (some call this Spirit baptism others use other names like sanctification). Many Christians believe that the Eucharist is symbolic and that Christ is spiritually (not physically) present. To say that because of these beliefs Pentecostals are somehow sub-Christian just doesn’t make a lot of sense.

Well, Jesus DID say, “This IS my body” and “This IS my blood”…

and no offense, again tough love here, but now you know how Catholics have been feeling for a long time in certain areas. Hey, I live in South Carolina.

Again, glad you’re here.

 

[just_came_back]

I’m not offended by the Catholic Church or Catholics defending what they believe. I respect any Christian who is committed to his faith enough to stand up for it. What I regret is language that states or suggests that groups that are clearly Christian are somehow not. I also clearly get aggravated with people judging Pentecostals on beliefs that are shared by many more Christians than just Pentecostals. Many Christians believe in conversion experiences. Many Christians believe in “second works of grace” (some call this Spirit baptism others use other names like sanctification). Many Christians believe that the Eucharist is symbolic and that Christ is spiritually (not physically) present. To say that because of these beliefs Pentecostals are somehow sub-Christian just doesn’t make a lot of sense.

Thank you AbideWithMe. I didn’t mean to turn this thread into a discussion of Pentecostal theology, but I felt I couldn’t let such uninformed comments about the “Christianness” of Pentecostals to stand unchallenged.

No problem here. Believe me, I can’t let such uninformed comments about the “Christianness” of Catholics stand unchallenged.

 

[ltwin]

Your baptism is indeed valid.

Good to know that in case I ever want to convert I want have to get all wet again.

Just so you know, I was baptized in a pentecostal church at the age of 15. Now that you have picked yourself up off the floor-just kidding:thumbsup:-

That doesn’t surprise me. Many people find Jesus in a Pentecostal church and later leave for traditional churches. Hopefully your time as a Pentecostal was beneficial to your Christian faith.

I converted to RCC in 1999. We are glad to have you here, but also know our love is tough. That said, welcome.

Thank you.

 

[ltwin]

Well, Jesus DID say, “This IS my body” and “This IS my blood”…

and no offense, again tough love here, but now you know how Catholics have been feeling for a long time in certain areas. Hey, I live in South Carolina.

Again, glad you’re here.

I understand where you’re coming from. I’m from South Carolina too. I just decided a long time ago not to have any patience for any Catholic bashing. Now I’m up for vigorous debate, but I see too much of the work of the Spirit in the CC to argue that they aren’t Christians.

 

[just_came_back]

Good to know that in case I ever want to convert I want have to get all wet again.

That doesn’t surprise me. Many people find Jesus in a Pentecostal church and later leave for traditional churches. **Hopefully your time as a Pentecostal was beneficial to your Christian faith. **

Thank you.

Well, to be honest, yes AND no. A lot of good people I will say that and they truly loved the Lord. There are some, well, I’ll just say praise God and I’ll move on. Again, welcome to CAF. The Holy Spirit may have led you here for reasons we may never know until the world to come. Peace.

 

[4Squarebaby]

I understand where you’re coming from. I’m from South Carolina too. I just decided a long time ago not to have any patience for any Catholic bashing. Now I’m up for vigorous debate, but I see too much of the work of the Spirit in the CC to argue that they aren’t Christians.

Understand when you get in a debate all to often you are “debating” a search engine. In this case to find evidence against the forest of the broad Pentecostal movement the search turned up evidence, because Pentecostal was in the official name, of the outlying tree across the road.

The funny thing is that by chance on this site I found out that the first Catholic Church my wife and I visited in my home town is guess what not Catholic. Now would it be easy to point to them and make claims about Catholics as a whole

 

[ltwin]

Understand when you get in a debate all to often you are “debating” a search engine. In this case to find evidence against the forest of the broad Pentecostal movement the search turned up evidence, because Pentecostal was in the official name, of the outlying tree across the road.

Yeah. You’re right.

 

[SaintPatrick333]

P.S. I forgot to add above that another thing that some people are attracted to is the spontaneity. We don’t have to adhere to a proscribed schedule. If the Holy Spirit wants to minister to people one Sunday instead of letting the preacher preach then the preacher wont preach. The Spirit will use the members of the congregation to minister to one another through prayer during the service. If he wants someone to give a prophetic message or a message in tongues then he will direct people to do that and if the church is truly listening to the Spirit then they will let him speak in whatever way he wants to.

That’s not from God.

 

[ltwin]

That’s not from God.

Really? The Apostle Paul knew what was from God too. He seems to disagree with you . . .

“26 What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up. 27 If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret. 28 But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God. 29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said. 30 If a revelation is made to another sitting there, let the first be silent. 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged, 32 and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets. 33 For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.” (1 Corinthians 14)

 

[Spencer3096]

I was raised in the Assemblies of God, and I converted to Catholicism in 2007. I also went to an AG university for two years, where most of my friends were theology majors. That being said, I will agree with other posters that Pentecostals are a very diverse group – no two churches are the same. I grew up in a rather conservative (that is, similar to Southern Baptist) AG church, but what drew me to the Catholic Church was the fact that I couldn’t reconcile Jesus’ words in John 6 with the whole “symbolic elements of communion” teaching that is common among many Protestant groups.

Anyway, to answer the OP’s questions:

1. The lower level of formality and general friendliness attract many people in my experience.
2. I have seen this a couple of times, but only with the more “far out” types. Most Pentecostals are everyday normal people, but it is possible to run into fringe ones with more cultish tendencies.
3. I can’t say. I’m sure that God finds a way to use them for His glory, though.

P.S. All of the informed Pentecostals I’ve met weren’t very fond of Oneness Pentecostals’ theology. The split between them and the Trinitarian Pentecostals (such as the AG) happened in the early 20th Century. I swear it’s the only time I’ve really heard any Protestant use the term “heresy” seriously .

 

[Hello_All]

it is true that pentecostal churches have different views/interpretaion of the bible.i was a witness to it firsthand.I was w/ a Pentecostal client at her home.Then,her neighbor,who happensto be Pentecostal,as well,was sporting a very long hair,almost to the ground.She told me, that her Pastor ordered all females ,not to cut their hair forever,that was according to the Bible.however,my client responded, that her Pastor told them the opposite i.e. that they should be presentable and need to cut their hair,when it is necesarry and that was according to the BIBLE ,as well.They go to two different Pentecostal churches.I am perplexed,on whom to believe.

 

[ltwin]

it is true that pentecostal churches have different views/interpretaion of the bible.i was a witness to it firsthand.I was w/ a Pentecostal client at her home.Then,her neighbor,who happensto be Pentecostal,as well,was sporting a very long hair,almost to the ground.She told me, that her Pastor ordered all females ,not to cut their hair forever,that was according to the Bible.however,my client responded, that her Pastor told them the opposite i.e. that they should be presentable and need to cut their hair,when it is necesarry and that was according to the BIBLE ,as well.They go to two different Pentecostal churches.I am perplexed,on whom to believe.

Pentecostalism does not have a magisterium. So, if both women and their pastors have had a Pentecostal experience of Spirit baptism with the evidence of speaking in tongues then technically both are Pentecostal.

Before the 1970s, it was nearly universal among Pentecostals to adhere to certain lifestyle practices, such as women wearing their hair long, not wearing pants, no makeup or jewelry etc. Also, no alcohol or tobacco use. No dancing, no movies. These were seen as frivolous and worldly. You could say they were perceived as “vanities.” These took attention off of the important things–Jesus. However, after the 1970s the charismatic movement in both Catholic and mainline Protestant churches brought a lot of non-Pentecostal Christians into Pentecostal churches. They didn’t adhere to this distinctive lifestyle, and over time Pentecostalism has shed these practices. There are still some Pentecostals who do live this way. Most Pentecostals today believe that clothing should be modest, but pants, makeup and jewelry for women is ok. Also we will go to movies. We still don’t drink alcohol or smoke.

 

[just_came_back]

Really? The Apostle Paul knew what was from God too. He seems to disagree with you . . .

“26 What then, brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up. 27 If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret. 28 But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God. 29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said. 30 If a revelation is made to another sitting there, let the first be silent. 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged, 32 and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets. 33 For God is not a God of confusion but of peace.” (1 Corinthians 14)

Growing up pentecostal, I saw a lot of services that were confusing. multiple tongues by multiple people at the same time with no interpretation, running of aisles. I always wondered why pentecostals never took Jesus seriously when he said of Eucharist, “This DO in remembrance of me.” other than the one time a year and usually it was presented as just a memorial. I actually remember a pastor holding a saltine cracker once.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I always wondered why pentecostals never took Jesus seriously when he said of Eucharist, “This DO in remembrance of me.” other than the one time a year and usually it was presented as just a memorial. I actually remember a pastor holding a saltine cracker once.

Right, the Eucharist is an amazing gift. The fact one could receive “daily” in the Catholic Church shouldn’t be underestimated. Here is where IMO the CC differs from all other Churchs. The worship of the Blessed Sacrament another blessing, which completely coincides with the Real Presence.

The social community aspect hasn’t ever been an issue for me, however I would imagine it is in some parts of the country. At the end of the day I attend church to worship the Lord through the Consecration of the Eucharist. A Miracle that takes place daily which I’ve come to highly regard. This is what I chase.

 

[PeterJohn]

Pentecostalism does not have a magisterium. So, if both women and their pastors have had a Pentecostal experience of Spirit baptism with the evidence of speaking in tongues then technically both are Pentecostal.

Before the 1970s, it was nearly universal among Pentecostals to adhere to certain lifestyle practices, such as women wearing their hair long, not wearing pants, no makeup or jewelry etc. Also, no alcohol or tobacco use. No dancing, no movies. These were seen as frivolous and worldly. You could say they were perceived as “vanities.” These took attention off of the important things–Jesus. However, after the 1970s the charismatic movement in both Catholic and mainline Protestant churches brought a lot of non-Pentecostal Christians into Pentecostal churches. They didn’t adhere to this distinctive lifestyle, and over time Pentecostalism has shed these practices. There are still some Pentecostals who do live this way. Most Pentecostals today believe that clothing should be modest, but pants, makeup and jewelry for women is ok. Also we will go to movies. We still don’t drink alcohol or smoke.

My father and mother inlaw drink beers on hot days and they are attending a Pentecostal church. The pastor is a student of Rod Parsley(know anything about him? If so please elaborate) is no alcohol a typical Pentecostal teaching? I mean absolutely no disrespect but how do Pentecostals see the catholic church and it’s apostolic origins in the context that the Pentecostal communities are not apostolic or in other words how do they justify inventing a new doctorines and new denomination outside of the One Holy Catholic apostolic church that Christ started? If Christ started it how did the revival movement start their own?

 

[4Squarebaby]

My father and mother inlaw drink beers on hot days and they are attending a Pentecostal church. The pastor is a student of Rod Parsley(know anything about him? If so please elaborate) is no alcohol a typical Pentecostal teaching?

Rod Parsley Ohio area megachurch with a mutliethnic congregation and a daily TBN show. Because a same sex marriage bill was also on the ballot, which he was a fight leader against, he has been credited with giving Bush Ohio in the presendential election.

I remember one week my pastor gave a message saying it was okay to drink. However socially if there is a party the drinks don’t come out and are saved for parties outside of the church family.

 

[just_came_back]

Rod Parsley Ohio area megachurch with a mutliethnic congregation and a daily TBN show. Because a same sex marriage bill was also on the ballot, which he was a fight leader against, he has been credited with giving Bush Ohio in the presendential election.

I remember one week my pastor gave a message saying it was okay to drink. However socially if there is a party the drinks don’t come out and are saved for parties outside of the church family.

Rod Parsley is the Vince McMahon of pentecostalism. Theology speaking, we won’t agree on everything, but for entertainment, how can you not like a guy who has spoken to kicking Muslims back across the sea, having a guy dressed up as Satan and having the crowd start beating on him, and actually walks like Vince McMahon. I love him just for that.

One show I saw, he prayed for a guy, pushed him down and then turned around and started strutting across the stage while the crowd was going ballistic. I was hoping he would let out a Ric Flair “WHOOOOOOOOOOO!”

 

[ltwin]

My father and mother inlaw drink beers on hot days and they are attending a Pentecostal church. The pastor is a student of Rod Parsley(know anything about him? If so please elaborate) is no alcohol a typical Pentecostal teaching?

While anything is possible, I find it highly unlikely that a Pentecostal pastor would suggest that his congregants should drink. He may (if more liberal) suggest that drinking alcohol in moderation is not wrong, but I doubt he’d endorse it. It is still a strong taboo, but there are individual Pentecostals who will drink (though they usually don’t advertise it). This is similar to the attitude toward smoking; however, in my experience it is not looked down on as much as drinking is. There are members of my church who are known to smoke cigarettes, and it doesn’t really matter. However, if a minister is seen smoking a cigarette then some people will question the legitimacy of his call. I think at its core is a deeply held belief in self control and that we should be captive to Christ, not substances. And of course there are historical reasons. I think many of the early Pentecostals would have supported the temperance movement.

I mean absolutely no disrespect but how do Pentecostals see the catholic church and it’s apostolic origins in the context that the Pentecostal communities are not apostolic or in other words how do they justify inventing a new doctorines and new denomination outside of the One Holy Catholic apostolic church that Christ started? If Christ started it how did the revival movement start their own?

You have to look at this historically, not in a vacuum. It’s not like the first Pentecostals were Catholics. They weren’t. They weren’t even reacting against the Catholic Church. The first Pentecostals were essentially Methodists who advocated holiness of life and a more experiential side of Christianity. They emerged out of a Protestant revivalistic milieu that felt that God was on the verge of intervening in history to revive the church and to restore the spiritual gifts and apostolic power of the early church so that in the last days God would return for a glorious church without spot or blemish. They were adamant that they were not forming new denominations, only coming out of spiritually dead ones. Despite such sentiments, new controversies and disruptions necessitated the formalizing of structures. And the attacks of non-Pentecostal holiness Christians necessitated the articulation of a distinctive Pentecostal theology.