The Room Where It Happened 📚

[StudentMI]

Bolton was not the Mass Murderer. Bush #43 was. Bush had free will and choices. But ultimately it was the decisions made by Bush and his Congress and his Senate.

Interestingly Andrew Bacevich, a professional of impeccable character, said at least Bush acted for what he thought was the good. Obama acted purely for realpolitik.

 

[JonNC]

Maybe during a cold day in hell.

A reference to the previous administration.

Not even close. He is just the lesser of 2 evils incarnate.

But he’s believable because he stokes the passion of animus against Trump.

 

[Dr_Meinheimer]

Yeah, this is Biden’s major problem. I’d certainly rather be ahead than behind in the polls, but given most polls right now are registered voters, and the enthusiasm gap is one of the largest in history, the disparity between registered voters and likely voters gets larger as the enthusiasm gap grows. Biden can’t coast with just under 5 months left and assume he will win.

https://www.usnews.com/news/electio...n-new-polls-but-he-may-face-an-enthusiasm-gap

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

But he’s believable because he stokes the passion of animus against Trump.

That’s not why he’s believable. He’s believable because the story he tells is consistent with what we know of Trumps character. It’s not Bolton is a lone voice crying in the wilderness. He’s one of a laundry list of former senior officials who worked directly with Trump who came away saying “this guy is unfit for the office.”

 

[StudentMI]

Bolton is a war mongering chicken hawk who pushed for war with Iran for God knows what reason.

 

[JonNC]

That’s not why he’s believable. He’s believable because the story he tells is consistent with what he know of Trumps character.

Of course that’s why he he’s believable. We see that with others, like Romney. In 2012 he was a racist, sexist, awful Republican. Now look at how the progressive media treats him.
Same thing.

 

[JonNC]

Bolton is a war mongering chicken hawk who pushed for war with Iran for God knows what reason.

But all of that is okay because he’s bashing Trump.

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

But all of that is okay because he’s bashing Trump.

It’s not okay. It’s just not relevant to the question of whether he’s credible. You can have bad policy views and not be lying.

 

[StudentMI]

If pond scum dressed up in a suit and bashed Trump the left would embrace it.

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

Question for the Trump supporters here. I really don’t want to debate the merits of Trump because it’s been done to death and no one is going to change their mind. I’m also asking this in good faith: not trying to set up a “gotcha” or an insult or anything. As far as I’m concerned this is all people of good will with a disagreement. No personal animosity.

All that said: what would it take you to say “yeah, Trump is probably a dishonest, shady person.”? Note I’m not saying “what would it take to make you vote Biden?” but what would it take to make you agree that the man has a character issue?

I ask because it seems like there is a presumption in favor of trump that no one will ever be able to overcome. Like whatever the amount of testimony from former senior people, it will always be dismissed as lies by people trying to sell books or whatever.

What would convince you? And please no deflections like “well, the media/Bill Clinton lie too!” That’s not the question.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Well, sure you can. He didn’t get his way because Trump is not a traditional Washington insider.

So the only way you can discredit Bolton is to drag down all the Republicans he worked for as “Washington Insiders”. This is starting to sound like the “No true Scotsman” fallacy. (“No true Republican would say anything bad about Trump. If they do, they must be flawed in some way.”)

 

[JonNC]

So the only way you can discredit Bolton is to drag down all the Republicans he worked for as “Washington Insiders”.

No. The only way to know the truth Is to hear both sides. Bolton actually had a chance to testify and chose not to. Instead, he is going to make a lot of money on a book and never face cross examination.
He might be telling to truth for all I know, but that’s the point: nobody here knows if he is or isn’t. And believing him because someone thinks Orange Man bad is juvenile at best.

 

[JonNC]

avoiding testifying under oath told me something about his relationship with the truth.

Exactly. Instead, he decided to make a lot of money on a book deal and not have to face that inconvenient cross examination.

 

[JonNC]

Question for the Trump supporters here. I really don’t want to debate the merits of Trump

Specifically, what merits of Trump?
His economic recovery?
His avoidance of new wars?
His appointment of good judges?
The best unemployment and employment numbers, particularly for people of color , ever.
His support for Israel?
His support for the soon to be born?
His trade policies

How about the demerits?
He says as us stupid stuff.
He is spending taxpayer Money like a drunken (or sober) Democrat.
He says stupid stuff.
His personal morality is not one to be emulated.
He says stupid stuff.

All that said: what would it take you to say “yeah, Trump is probably a dishonest, shady person.”?

Well, yeah. So are most of the elected leadership in Congress. Pelosi, Schumer, Schiff, McConnell.
That’s why the general government isn’t supposed to have the amount of power it has usurped.

What would convince you?

Here’s what would convince me not to vote for Trump: if a candidate with a good chance to win were to run on a platform of balancing the budget in two years with no tax increases, cut spending not enumerated in article 1, section 8, free young people to invest their FICA taxes.

That would convince me.

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

Here’s what would convince me not to vote for Trump

That wasn’t the question. It was “what would it take for you to believe that Trump is a dishonest, sleazy person?”

It seems like your answer is “sure he is, I just don’t care because I like his policies.” Which is a totally fair, defensible stance, by the way.

 

[StudentMI]

So the only way you can discredit Bolton is to drag down… etc ad nauseam

Bolton drags himself down.

 

[JonNC]

That wasn’t the question. It was “what would it take for you to believe that Trump is a dishonest, sleazy person?”

I answered that, though you diffuse the word sleazy the first time. You said shady. Sleazy might change my answer.
I said

Well, yeah. So are most of the elected leadership in Congress. Pelosi, Schumer, Schiff, McConnell.
That’s why the general government isn’t supposed to have the amount of power it has usurped.

It seems like your answer is “sure he is, I just don’t care because I like his policies.” Which is a totally fair, defensible stance, by the way.

I appreciate that, but…
not exactly. I do care. I didn’t vote for him in the primaries four years ago because I have a much higher personal regard for Senator Cruz, Senator Paul and even Senator Rubio. Frankly, I don’t like his persona, his character.
But my liberty trumps (no pun intended) his character. I cannot vote for a Democrat for that precise reason.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

So the only way you can discredit Bolton is to drag down… etc ad nauseam

Bolton drags himself down.

Starting when? When he worked for Bush? For Reagan? When?

I’m not talking about his judgement as National Security Adviser. I’m only talking about his commitment to the Republican party.

 

[Boatswain2PA]

It is amazing how Bolton is all of a sudden the darling of the left

I thought that was “Binders of Women” Romney?

 

[Boatswain2PA]

I dont care what Bolton thinks of Trump, or vice versa.

I care about policies implemented. Lower taxes & lower regulation which led to unleashing our economic engine and prosperity for most. A little nationalism (for ALL colors of us). A love for America.