The scriptures do not tell us to pray to saints!

[christcnection1]

Hi, how are you? When you say “saints” are you talking about “all of God’s people” … or just the Catholic saints?

The reason I ask is because it seems that Catholics are under the impression that only Catholic saints can go to heaven. But this is not correct. When the NT and OT speak of “saints” the exact definition in the Greek and Hebrew is … “God’s people”.

And because God doesn’t play the favorites game, there are is no “special person” that He prefers over another. So which do you believe … just wondering.

The communion of saints is the spiritual solidarity which binds together the faithful on earth, the souls in purgatory, and the saints in heaven in the organic unity of the same mystical body under Christ its head, and in a constant interchange of supernatural offices. The participants in that solidarity are called saints by reason of their destination and of their partaking of the fruits of the Redemption (1 Corinthians 1:2 &151; Greek Text). The damned are thus excluded from the communion of saints. The living, even if they do not belong to the body of the true Church, share in it according to the measure of their union with Christ and with the soul of the Church. St. Thomas teaches (III:8:4) that the angels, though not redeemed, enter the communion of saints because they come under Christ’s power and receive of His gratia capitis. The solidarity itself implies a variety of inter-relations: within the Church Militant, not only the participation in the same faith, sacraments, and government, but also a mutual exchange of examples, prayers, merits, and satisfactions; between the Church on earth on the one hand, and purgatory and heaven on the other, suffrages, invocation, intercession, veneration. These connotations belong here only in so far as they integrate the transcendent idea of spiritual solidarity between all the children of God. Thus understood, the communion of saints, though formally defined only in its particular bearings (Council of Trent, Sess. XXV, decrees on purgatory; on the invocation, veneration, and relics of saints and of sacred images; on indulgences), is, nevertheless, dogma commonly taught and accepted in the Church. It is true that the Catechism of the Council of Trent (Pt. I, ch. x) seems at first sight to limit to the living the bearing of the phrase contained in the Creed, but by making the communion of saints an exponent and function, as it were, of the preceding clause, “the Holy Catholic Church”, it really extends to what it calls the Church’s “constituent parts, one gone before, the other following every day”; the broad principle it enunciates thus: “every pious and holy action done by one belongs and is profitable to all, through charity which seeketh not her own”.

newadvent.org/cathen/04171a.htm

All God’s children and saints; however, we also designate Catholic Saints as those who are now in heaven, because they are perfected through Christ.

A patron is one who has been assigned by a venerable tradition, or chosen by election, as a special intercessor with God and the proper advocate of a particular locality, and is honoured by clergy and people with a special form of religious observance. The term “patron”, being wider in its meaning than that of “titular”, may be applied to a church, a district, a country, or a corporation. The word “titular” is applied only to the patron of a church or institution. Both the one and the other, according to the legislation now in force, must have the rank of a canonized saint.

newadvent.org/cathen/11562a.htm

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Why do many of the protestants who shout “go straight to God”–why do they even bother to go to Prayer meetings on Wedsnesdays?

Why don’t they just stay at home and go “straight to God” with their prayers if they really believe that?

As far as I know Wednesday prayer meeting isn’t found in the Bible!

Catholics can go to Mass everyday and have their prayers and intentions shared by the church and offered to God!

If the prayer of a righteous man doth indeed availeth much–wouldn’t the prayers of the whole church where one attends Mass united with Jesus’ sacrifice be worth even more?

I’ll tell you this: if I am sick or know of someone who is or know of someone who needs help I want the whole world and the saints above and the saints in purgatory all interceeding and praying to Jesus!

Why do people think that Jesus isn’t honored by the prayers and petitions of others that are only exercising His love?

How does that detract from Christ?

And more than that how does Jesus letting the saints in heaven Hear those prayers and intercede for others detract from Him?

How is His will advanced by not letting the saints do that?

Consider the Transfiguration–Jesus who is God knows everything–He didn’t need the advice of Elijah or Moses.

Both were alive because Jesus said that he is God of the living.

Now we know that they weren’t deaf–they were able to hear Jesus’ voice–Jesus wanted to talk to them!

Is that the only time in the history of the universe that Jesus wanted to talk to the saints after their deaths?

How much sense does that make–you think the saints in heaven who are full of Love for God quit talking to Him? Do you think that God quits listening to them when they’re in heaven?

If the prayer of a righteous man availeth much how much does the prayer of a saint in heaven who is Sancitifed–how much does that avail?

Are you going to tell me that God doesn’t even listen to those saints?

And if those saints truely are filled with Jesus’ love are you going to tell me that they Never pray for the church and the souls on Earth?

Since they do are you going to tell me that Christ will not even listen to their prayers?

It all gets down to what kind of ears they have!

Their ears are different from our ears because they are outside of Earthly time.

The real question one has to answer is Why would Jesus want them Not to hear our prayers?

Are you going to tell me that all the time they’re on Earth that Jesus wants them to hear the concerns of others and He loves to hear their prayers for others but once they’re in Heaven He doesn’t want them to hear from others?

In other words He wants them to Not be able to help other saints–they are to be happy with just twidling their fingers in Heaven–praising God–and saying to themselves “I sure am glad I don’t have to care about anybody anymore–Jesus let me share in His redemption of others while I was on Earth and listened to my prayers for them–now he wants me to Not to anything–isn’t that great?”

Love being deaf makes so sense!

Praying to the saints and asking them to help us is no different than asking fellow christians to pray for us now in this world.

God loves that love we exercise for one another. God does not cancel us being able to continue to love like that after death!

 

[christcnection1]

If we are all one Body in Christ (both here and in heaven) then in order for the Body to function effectively, it needs to act as one unit.

For example, let’s say the request for prayer represents a big toe that was stubbed and injured. Let’s say that the Saints in heaven represent the eyes.

Does the toe feel the pain? No, not really… the head does. The head represents Christ (the Head of the Church).

So the head signals to the eyes to look at the problem which in turn, assists in looking after the injured toe, by using the hands (a different part of the same Church).

Here we see Christ working through His people at the beginning(the Head seeing the pain of his people on earth), second (the Head signaling to the eyes), third (the eyes requesting help from the Head to use the hands), and at the end (the Head healing the toe).

Through Him, with Him, and in Him… from start to finish.

---

You know, sometimes I wonder if the rejection of this belief has anything to do with a hope that once one is in heaven, there will be nothing to concern oneself with. Although the Saints in heaven do not experience pain as we understand it, it’s through their overflowing and perfected love in Christ that they care for their brothers and sisters on earth.

This is a hypothetical for our separated brethren (Protestants)…

If you were in heaven, and God allowed you to intercede for your loved ones on earth, would you even want to? If God did not allow you to intercede, or even have a sense of what was going on, would this be a loving thing for God to do?

I suspect some, if they were in heaven, wouldn’t want to care what takes place on earth.

 

[Phil12123]

Forgive me but I can’t seem to locate anyone’s reply to this:

Didn’t what you call “the Sacred Tradition of the Church” consist of oral apostolic teachings? If so, was that ever reduced to writing, and if so, do we have it to read now? If not, how can you know what it consisted of? How can you know if it contained any particular teaching, such as praying to deceased saints?

**If you can give me a link to the response, that would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Peace**

 

[homewardbound]

Forgive me but I can’t seem to locate anyone’s reply to this:

**If you can give me a link to the response, that would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Peace**

Anyone who studies history at all can tell you Christians have been praying to saints since the beginning. Its common sense(I’m a history buff though so thats just IMO) I suggest www.history.com or find a history professor.

 

[guanophore]

Forgive me but I can’t seem to locate anyone’s reply to this:

**If you can give me a link to the response, that would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Peace**

Sacred Tradition is living and active, just like the Sacred Writing. However, you can find some of the living tradition here:

vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

 

[christcnection1]

Forgive me but I can’t seem to locate anyone’s reply to this:

Didn’t what you call “the Sacred Tradition of the Church” consist of oral apostolic teachings? If so, was that ever reduced to writing, and if so, do we have it to read now? If not, how can you know what it consisted of? How can you know if it contained any particular teaching, such as praying to deceased saints?

**If you can give me a link to the response, that would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Peace**

catholic.com/library/Apostolic_Succession.asp

The first Christians had no doubts about how to determine which was the true Church and which doctrines the true teachings of Christ. The test was simple: Just trace the apostolic succession of the claimants.

Apostolic succession is the line of bishops stretching back to the apostles. All over the world, all Catholic bishops are part of a lineage that goes back to the time of the apostles, something that is impossible in Protestant denominations (most of which do not even claim to have bishops).

The role of apostolic succession in preserving true doctrine is illustrated in the Bible. To make sure that the apostles’ teachings would be passed down after the deaths of the apostles, Paul told Timothy, “[W]hat you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also” (2 Tim. 2:2). In this passage he refers to the first three generations of apostolic succession—his own generation, Timothy’s generation, and the generation Timothy will teach.

The Church Fathers, who were links in that chain of succession, regularly appealed to apostolic succession as a test for whether Catholics or heretics had correct doctrine. This was necessary because heretics simply put their own interpretations, even bizarre ones, on Scripture. Clearly, something other than Scripture had to be used as an ultimate test of doctrine in these cases.

Thus the early Church historian J. N. D. Kelly, a Protestant, writes, “[W]here in practice was [the] apostolic testimony or tradition to be found? . . . The most obvious answer was that the apostles had committed it orally to the Church, where it had been handed down from generation to generation. . . . Unlike the alleged secret tradition of the Gnostics, it was entirely public and open, having been entrusted by the apostles to their successors, and by these in turn to those who followed them, and was visible in the Church for all who cared to look for it” (Early Christian Doctrines, 37).

For the early Fathers, “the identity of the oral tradition with the original revelation is guaranteed by the unbroken succession of bishops in the great sees going back lineally to the apostles. . . . [A]n additional safeguard is supplied by the Holy Spirit, for the message committed was to the Church, and the Church is the home of the Spirit. Indeed, the Church’s bishops are . . . Spirit-endowed men who have been vouchsafed ‘an infallible charism of truth’” (ibid.).​

See all the quotes from the ECF on apostolic tradition.

If you believe you need every single doctrine or belief to come directly from the Bible, that’s fine. I can understand why you do that; nearly every convert here felt comfortable with that for awhile.

However, the Bible itself does not affirm the belief that it alone, based on individual interpretation, is the only reliable guide for truth.

My friend in Christ, in the end, these issues do come down to faith. For many “Swimming the Tiber” is cold and tempestuous, but warm and cozy on the other side. This was my own personal experience. For others, it was the peace of Christ all the way.

Although I agree that the Bible could be a lot clearer on this issue, it’s somewhat extrabiblical, but not antibiblical. Rather, the doctrine itself compliments scripture and sacred tradition affirms it.

The final issue is authority: did God establish a Church first designed to lead people into all truth, or did God desire merely a Bible for everyone to interpret for themselves?

God, in His love, gave His people far more than a Bible alone, and the oldest and most influential institution in the world supports this conviction.

God Bless,
JB

 

[justasking4]

Anyone who studies history at all can tell you Christians have been praying to saints since the beginning. Its common sense(I’m a history buff though so thats just IMO) I suggest www.history.com or find a history professor.

This is not true. There is not one refernce in the NT of anyone **praying to **someone who has died.

 

[justasking4]

You are just misunderstanding the use of the word “prayer”. All it means is 'justasking".

It is the same as saying to my neighbore “pray take care of my cats while I am away, will you?”

I understand what prayer is. The issue is not that people pray but can a catholic communicate with a dead person. Is the person who has died and you pray to able to hear your prayer and do something about it?
The only One Who can and does is God. The scriptures do not teach any other way.

 

[christcnection1]

This is not true. There is not one refernce in the NT of anyone **praying to **someone who has died.

You are making the fallacious assumption that simply because the Bible doesn’t speak directly on one topic, that the early Church did not believe in it.

The Bible never claims to be the sole organized compilation of all Christian dogma; rather, the Bible affirms oral traditions. (2 Thessalonians 2:15)

Likewise, I do not know of one verse of scripture which says asking for the intercession of our brothers and sisters in heaven is a sin. If that Bible said that, I likely leave the Catholic Church.

Furthermore, you still have not dealt with the ECF’s that believed in asking the Saints in heaven to pray for us.

My friend, since there is no Bible verse that says this specific act is false, and that there is no Bible verse that the Bible alone, based on individual interpretation, is the final and sole rule of faith, the burden of proof is on you.

This is a something the early Church embraced.

The foundational issue here is authority:
catholic.com/library/Apostolic_Succession.asp

God, in His love, gave us more than a Bible, based on individual interpretation, to govern and navigate our lives for His glory.

God Bless,
JB

 

[guanophore]

I understand what prayer is. The issue is not that people pray but can a catholic communicate with a dead person. Is the person who has died and you pray to able to hear your prayer and do something about it?
The only One Who can and does is God. The scriptures do not teach any other way.

How did Peter know that Ananias and Sapphira lied to the HS?

 

[christcnection1]

How did Peter know that Ananias and Sapphira lied to the HS?

Maybe the early Church had their version of the Mossad.

 

[Man]

This thing is long…

Anyway, my favorite quote on this:

“if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs?” (Against Vigilantius 6 [c. 406 AD]).

St. Jerome

 

[EJM]

Okay, good point of view. However, it doesn’t match the Words of Christ and the Apostles. Let’s see what THEY said about it:

1st Tim 2:5: For there is ONE God and ONE Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus…

Ephs 2:18: For through Him we have ACCESS by one Spirit to the Father.

John 14:14: Ask anything in MY NAME and I will do it.

These are just 3 of 100 instructions in the NT concerning how we should play and to whom. And nowhere is it written that we are allowed to pray to the deceased or Miriam … for the simple reason they did not EARN that right on the cross.

Your reason is flawed. Nobody earns the right to anything. You and I both don’t earn the right to salvation either. But through the cross, God can save us, and through the cross, we can share in God’s divine life. Again, if someone comes to me with a problem, even if they don’t ask me to pray, I will pray with them or for them in the name of Jesus…not my name. Miriam does not pray to the Father in her own name, only the name of Jesus.

Peace

 

[mlldrl]

The issue is not that people pray but can a catholic communicate with a dead person. Is the person who has died and you pray to able to hear your prayer and do something about it?

So then how did St. John hear every living creature?

Rev. 5:13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, everything in the universe, cry out: “To the one who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor, glory and might, forever and ever.”

And how is it that the elders (dead humans by your reasoning) are offering our prayers in heaven?

Rev. 5:8 "Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones.

And what does it mean to you to “share in the divine nature”?

2 Peter 1:4 Through these, he has bestowed on us the precious and very great promises, so that through them you may come to share in the divine nature, after escaping from the corruption that is in the world because of evil desire.

The only One Who can and does is God. The scriptures do not teach any other way.

Well it seems to me that scripture says that those who share in the divine nature CAN hear but it’s always God who answers those prayers.

M

 

[Milliardo]

This is not true. There is not one refernce in the NT of anyone **praying to **someone who has died.

Having no direct reference doesn’t mean it isn’t true; as some have already stated, where is it prohibited? It’s not there, is it now?

 

[mtr01]

I know this is a bit late but…

John 14:14: Ask anything in My name and I will do it.

Dearest and Most Loving Father in Heaven, I humbly ask in Jesus’ name that those people who have completed their earth-bound journey and by Your grace are alive in Christ with You in Heaven may be able to hear my prayers and intercede with You on my behalf. Amen.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

http://www.davidmacd.com/images/catacomb_intercession.jpg

Photo: Catacomb of St. Sabastiano: Fragments of a wall plaster from the triclia with numerous graffiti that ask for the prayers of the martryed appostles, Peter and Paul. link

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Maybe the early Church had their version of the Mossad.

Good one, cc!

 

[Ani_Ibi]

justasking4:

I understand what prayer is. The issue is not that people pray but can a catholic communicate with a dead person.

It is frowned upon. However, the Saints are alive and we communicate with them often. And they with us.

justasking4:

Is the person who has died and you pray to able to hear your prayer and do something about it?

Those who have died and are now in the company of God in Heaven can hear our prayers. God is the one who does something about our prayers.

justasking4:

The only One Who can and does is God.

God is the one who answers prayer.

justasking4:

The scriptures do not teach any other way.

Any other way than what?