The Slaughtering of Animals in Factories. Moral dilemmas in the modern world

[seeker63]

I’ve not had any pets baptized, but I wouldn’t mind going to an animal blessing service. I also grew up on a farm in East Texas, am currently (and have always been) a carnivore, and since I live in an apartment now, grow vegetables on the balcony. And I’ve never been a party in getting anyone an abortion.

 

[vern_humphrey]

seeker63:

I’ve not had any pets baptized, but I wouldn’t mind going to an animal blessing service. I also grew up on a farm in East Texas, am currently (and have always been) a carnivore, and since I live in an apartment now, grow vegetables on the balcony. And I’ve never been a party in getting anyone an abortion.

I’ve been to many an animal blessing. I’ve been to a blessing of the Shrimp Fleet, too – but I don’t believe shrimp boats go to heaven.

Growing up on a farm, you probably know that slaughtering and butchering is a bloody business. And there’s really no way around it.

 

[springbreeze]

vern humphrey:

Just one question – how many posting on this thread have had their dogs and cats baptized?http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

Dear friend

Animals and the rest of creation did not cause the fall of the world, Humans did because humans have free-will and they chose to do that. Animals serve God by their very existance, they did not fall from Him, but by our fall all of creation and all creatures suffer the fall.

It is us who were once in complete union with God require this reparation of Baptism to die to the sinful self and be resurrected in Christ Jesus and live again.

Animals have no part in the fall, it is us who fell and it is us as stewards that are carrying the weight of the fall and responsibility to each other and all of creation. That is why we must as stewards of our own souls of others and of all creation be restored to Christ Jesus by Baptism.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[vern_humphrey]

springbreeze:

Dear friend

Animals and the rest of creation did not cause the fall of the world, Humans did because humans have free-will and they chose to do that. Animals serve God by their very existance, they did not fall from Him, but by our fall all of creation and all creatures suffer the fall.

It is us who were once in complete union with God require this reparation of Baptism to die to the sinful self and be resurrected in Christ Jesus and live again.

Animals have no part in the fall, it is us who fell and it is us as stewards that are carrying the weight of the fall and responsibility to each other and all of creation. That is why we must as stewards of our own souls of others and of all creation be restored to Christ Jesus by Baptism.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

Those who demand the rest of us believe animals go to heaven do themselves a dis-service.

 

[seeker63]

I think what most of us are trying to do (though I can really only speak for myself) is not try to force others to believe that animals go to heaven, as neither a belief or disbelief in this is going to have much of an effect on the state of our souls, but rather to encourage a spirit of love and mercy towards non-human creatures. The idea that animals are just things, unfit and unworthy of eternal happiness and incapable of anything other than mechanical, brutish, instinctive actions, opens the door for poor treatment of them. Conversely, the idea that God may actual find these aspects of His creation good, as the Book of Genesis tells us, opens the door for kind and humane treatment of them.

The vehemence some people on this thread have used ininsisting that there is absolutely no way God could include animals in his plans of heaven, and their disingenuous claims that they are being so insistent only for the good of others, is what keeps upsetting me and keeps me in the argument.

 

[springbreeze]

vern humphrey:

Those who demand the rest of us believe animals go to heaven do themselves a dis-service.

Dear friend

Why is that? Because it demeans the human soul? Why should it? You take that animal into your very body, the temple of the Lord, why have anything in your body you would not deem to be of any value whatsoever?

I honestly do not understand the great big hoo-har over this. You can eat them , you can have them as pets and even allow them to share your bed, you can wear them, but they are totally unsuitable for any other purpose but these, yet you so intimately live with them in so many ways and the thought of them in heaven drives people to get all worked up? You do not KNOW what God will do with animals souls and so you are speculating and theorising and winding yourselves up over it.

Surely the heart that loves much would seek the salvation of the world entire. The worldly vices that are so repugnant is the way humans deal with the world, not the way God created the world and all the creatures in it.

So I do myself a dis-service, at worst you could say I have edged my bets, but those who do not treat animals with respect for their life, how greater a dis-service is that if animals do go to heaven?

Science shows us more and more convincingly we evolved and from ONE man and ONE woman the human race was born, now don’t tell me I cannot believe in evolution, because as a Catholic I can and I do, it is the most intelligant route to take and there is compelling evidence for it, this just proves to me how great acreator our God is and further to this it proves to me how deeply ingrained we are in creation and we should have a profound stewardship and love of it.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[vern_humphrey]

seeker63:

I think what most of us are trying to do (though I can really only speak for myself) is not try to force others to believe that animals go to heaven, as neither a belief or disbelief in this is going to have much of an effect on the state of our souls, but rather to encourage a spirit of love and mercy towards non-human creatures. The idea that animals are just things, unfit and unworthy of eternal happiness and incapable of anything other than mechanical, brutish, instinctive actions, opens the door for poor treatment of them. Conversely, the idea that God may actual find these aspects of His creation good, as the Book of Genesis tells us, opens the door for kind and humane treatment of them.

The vehemence some people on this thread have used ininsisting that there is absolutely no way God could include animals in his plans of heaven, and their disingenuous claims that they are being so insistent only for the good of others, is what keeps upsetting me and keeps me in the argument.

Which is why I say people who argue that animals go to heaven do themselves a dis-service.

First of all, they base the morality of humane treatment of animals on a false theological position, and secondly they destroy their own credibility in the process.

 

[springbreeze]

seeker63:

I think what most of us are trying to do (though I can really only speak for myself) is not try to force others to believe that animals go to heaven, as neither a belief or disbelief in this is going to have much of an effect on the state of our souls, but rather to encourage a spirit of love and mercy towards non-human creatures. The idea that animals are just things, unfit and unworthy of eternal happiness and incapable of anything other than mechanical, brutish, instinctive actions, opens the door for poor treatment of them. Conversely, the idea that God may actual find these aspects of His creation good, as the Book of Genesis tells us, opens the door for kind and humane treatment of them.

The vehemence some people on this thread have used ininsisting that there is absolutely no way God could include animals in his plans of heaven, and their disingenuous claims that they are being so insistent only for the good of others, is what keeps upsetting me and keeps me in the argument.

Dear Seeker

Yes this has deeply moved me to remain replying to this ridiculous argument because it simply promotes brutish treatment of God’s creation based on an unfounded and unproven theory.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[springbreeze]

vern humphrey:

Which is why I say people who argue that animals go to heaven do themselves a dis-service.

First of all, they base the morality of humane treatment of animals on a false theological position, and secondly they destroy their own credibility in the process.

Dear friend

What do you say to St Francis? Do you say he did himself a dis-service? To call fire, Brother Fire, to call the sun, Brother Sun?

Do you say his affection for creation was a dis-service to himself, do you say that his intimate living with creation he did not realise the infinite nature of it as it was created by the infinite?

No you want to discredit God’s creation so that the nothingness you are is exalted. Yes there is dignity above all creation in the human soul, but it is only dignified in the image of the Creator and the Creator does not exalt Himself, no He is very small and humble of heart, so small as to take the flesh of that which He created and suffer for it. That which is lower than you , you cannot even lower yourself to to serve with kindness and imagine that it may be part of God’s salvific plan…well what can I say.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[Al_Masetti]

If Jesus decides that animals will go to heavn, then by golly, they WILL go to heaven. Lions will lie with lambs. There will be every species of dinosaur. It’s going to be a cool place, really neat and a lot of fun.

 

[seeker63]

*"Which is why I say people who argue that animals go to heaven do themselves a dis-service.

“First of all, they base the morality of humane treatment of animals on a false theological position, and secondly they destroy their own credibility in the process.”

I don’t follow you. Why does kindness, love, humane behavior, etc., even need an elaborate theological framework or system before we can decide whether or not to practice those qualities? For Christians shouldn’t they be no-brainers? Are there not things our consciences show us are right? I mean, I know it’s wrong to molest or kill a child, and it didn’t take a Catechism or classes in moral formation or years of theological study to know that.

 

[seeker63]

Some of these arguments seem to be saying, in essense, that God has backed Himself into a water-tight contractual corner and has obligated Himself to remain there, and that we humans know the score exactly with no mysteries and no doubts.

 

[springbreeze]

"Which is why I say people who argue that animals go to heaven do themselves a dis-service.

“First of all, they base the morality of humane treatment of animals on a false theological position, and secondly they destroy their own credibility in the process.”

*I don’t follow you. Why does kindness, love, humane behavior, etc., even need an elaborate theological framework or system before we can decide whether or not to practice those qualities? For Christians shouldn’t they be no-brainers? Are there not things our consciences show us are right? I mean, I know it’s wrong to molest or kill a child, and it didn’t take a Catechism or classes in moral formation or years of theological study to know that. *

Dear Seeker

It’s all common sense really, I don’t understand either what is so hard to understand about it, but maybe I am a just a naive fool open to the wonders and mysteries of God that I am prepared not to have to reason everything out to the last detail but to take some things as mystery and follow that mystery of Love.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[Adonis33]

springbreeze:

Dear friend

Animals and the rest of creation did not cause the fall of the world, Humans did because humans have free-will and they chose to do that. Animals serve God by their very existance, they did not fall from Him, but by our fall all of creation and all creatures suffer the fall.

It is us who were once in complete union with God require this reparation of Baptism to die to the sinful self and be resurrected in Christ Jesus and live again.

Animals have no part in the fall, it is us who fell and it is us as stewards that are carrying the weight of the fall and responsibility to each other and all of creation. That is why we must as stewards of our own souls of others and of all creation be restored to Christ Jesus by Baptism.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

Animals lack reason - and free will.

Tree’s and insects also did not cause the fall. So they have souls too?

 

[mosher]

springbreeze:

Dear friend

Is this intellectual bullying?.. I perceive it is. Did you not know that the spirit of the law is above the letter of the law, unless it enters the heart it is as dead as a stone.

You have ignored these teachings I have outlined and you have also ingored many questions I have posed to you,they have struck you dumb as to ignore them and you have ignored them because they do not fit your argument. I have seen many people argue in the fashion you have without actually answering any of my questions, they are those who love only the law, but do not love anything else.

You can tell me many things but you can never clarify a theory until it has susbstance…you live on a theory.

I tell you the heart is above the intellect, the spirit is above the law. I tell you that Love is the law and if Love is the law all these small details fall into place.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

fides quares intellectum – the divorce of faith and reason is not a good practice to get into.

 

[mosher]

seeker63:

Teresa,

This guy is gonna shout down everyone who disagrees with him, or wait until he just exhausts everyone and they turn to other threads. Then he can think he proved his point, got in the last word, and can stand atop his little heap of earth victorious.

Mosher,

Am I making ad hominem attacks? You bet I am! I repeat, you’re being a rude, obnoxious, and arrogant bully. You may have read more theology than most, you may have read Aquinas cover to cover, but again, your obsession with the letter of the law has blinded you to its spirit.

I appreciate the observation but your comments do not commiserate with the view of the Church on the intellectual merits of the faith. JPII wrote an entire encyclical addressing this problem. Remeber that law exists for man to live after the fall as if the fall had not occured and Theology is the study of the revelaed faith (it is not the law but the understanding of God and the things of God). As I quoted earlier fides quarens intellectum.

 

[mosher]

Catholic2003:

Did you read Fr. Sullivan’s Salvation Outside the Church? I’m wondering what you thought of it if you did read it.

No I have not but I will put it on my reading list.

 

[mosher]

springbreeze:

Dear Seeker

Yes this has deeply moved me to remain replying to this ridiculous argument because it simply promotes brutish treatment of God’s creation based on an unfounded and unproven theory.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

You guys really don’t understand deductive reasoning. There is no proving process it is not the logically flawed scientific method. Deductive reasoning proves truth and falsity and is the only way to prove something absolutly true which St. Thomas has done.

 

[mosher]

springbreeze:

Dear friend

What do you say to St Francis? Do you say he did himself a dis-service? To call fire, Brother Fire, to call the sun, Brother Sun?

Do you say his affection for creation was a dis-service to himself, do you say that his intimate living with creation he did not realise the infinite nature of it as it was created by the infinite?

No you want to discredit God’s creation so that the nothingness you are is exalted. Yes there is dignity above all creation in the human soul, but it is only dignified in the image of the Creator and the Creator does not exalt Himself, no He is very small and humble of heart, so small as to take the flesh of that which He created and suffer for it. That which is lower than you , you cannot even lower yourself to to serve with kindness and imagine that it may be part of God’s salvific plan…well what can I say.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

I remember when I was starying with the Franciscans and they would never cease complaining about how everyone thought that Francis was this “hippie animal lover” (their words) when in fact the pius images of him with the animals have very little to do with his life. However, he and the St. Bonaventure viewed them as vestigum dei because you can see the hands of the creator in His creation.

 

[mosher]

seeker63:

Some of these arguments seem to be saying, in essense, that God has backed Himself into a water-tight contractual corner and has obligated Himself to remain there, and that we humans know the score exactly with no mysteries and no doubts.

Plenty of mystery but remember that God is rational by nature.