"The sufficiency of Grace" a continuation of "The sufficiency of Christ" family debate.

[zerinus]

A Pelagian Calvinist? What view do I have to warrant such a label of being a Pelagian?

How about a Muslim Calvinist? I think I like that a lot.

 

[guanophore]

I think 2nd Adam was trying to say is those that try to tell God what is just and unjust with regards to election are talking back to the potter.

I can only trust and hope this is true. However, there are no Catholics on this thread who are claiming such a thing, so it comes across as out of context. Even if there were, why slader all Catholics with it? It is particularly painful to those of us who begin each day with the prayer that we be like clay in the hands of the skilled potter. How does insulting those who yearn to follow God help the discussion?

 

[guanophore]

There is no such thing as a Calvinist Catholic, it is your attempt to be offensive.

I think I see why 2nd has fallen into insulting is now. He has no answer for the questions that have been brought. He believes that, if we don’t accept his frame of reference, we are “talking back to God”, and are rebellious clay in His hands.

2nd has posted huge volumes of Scripture in every thread he has been on here at CAF, When I asked him a simple question with regard to a case of regernation in the NT, he was unable to address it. He deliberatly posted a scripture that had nothing to do with the question. His avoidance and obfusaction are getting worse. I guess it is a good thing for him the thread is getting close to capping out. I see that he turned his attention to insulting Catholics in a new thread.

 

[guanophore]

This is a very good explanation of what Calvinists think in regards to evangelism. They do evangelize however, they can not get away from the fact that God commanded it. It is usually simply in obedience and the results are not as important to them due to the factors that you stated.

I was reading some posts of 2nd’s last night, criticizing Catholics about failing to preach christ. It was quite clear that he believed that the Elect could best be idnetified by preaching. So his claim to be here on CAF to “preach Christ” is so that he can more easily identify those who have been saved, and and are part of the remnant.

 

[tweetymom]

You are mistaken, 2nd. Tweety is suffering because her feelings are hurt. She was confronted about misrepresenting herself as a Catholic. It has been observed that she has become a stumbling block on CAF, putting forth that “cafeteria Catholicism” is an acceptable position for a Catholic, and that one is not failing in their Catholicity when they deny the doctrines of the faith.

None of these things gives any glory to God, nor is it suffering on His behalf. It is a suffering that was self imposed through claiming to espouse a faith that she does not.

Thank you once again Mr. Gee. I love it when you use my name. Tweety is not suffering nor are her feeling hurt like you might like to believe. Thank you for calling me names, it is very revealing to me that Jesus is on my side.

Again thank you! Keep up the good works you think you are doing. Actually it is good works for me.

 

[guanophore]

And the Calvinist clay likes to reject their Mother.

I don’t think this is fair either, izoid. Although 2nd suffers from a deficient understanding of the natuar and role of the Church, I think has accepted as much of it as he is able to, given the limitations he is under.

 

[guanophore]

I think we are all starting to see this pattern of behavior in Adam. Be careful in pointing this out as his personal attacks will get more virulent, he may even claim that you are not really a Catholic.

I don’t think there is any chance of that.

He has claimed that I am an intolerant Catholic, since I object to the practice of cafeteria catholicism.

He has also implied that I am not a very good Catholic because I dont’ share his evangelistic mission on CAF, and my purpose here differes from his.

 

[guanophore]

I asked this earlier in the thread but have not gotten an answer:

1. What is God’s grace sufficient for?
2. For whom is it sufficient?
3. Is it sufficient for the non elect , if so, what is it sufficient for?

It seems to me like he answered them.

What scripture states is not what it sounds like it states. Jesus is not really like “Adam”, because his actions really don’t affect the whole human race. His grace is only sufficient for the Elect, so he is really a better reflection of Noah than Adam. The Apostles just missed the mark on that one. When Scripture states or implies that Jesus came for the whole world, it does not really mean that either. It means only the Elect who are in the world.

God’s grace is preservative, and is here to give all those that belong to Christ an opportunity to repent. It staves off the 'god of this world" even from the damned, so that there will be more time for the Elect to be found in Christ.

Doesn’t that answer your question?

Hey, since 2nd does not know, can you tell me when Cornelius was justified?

 

[guanophore]

Mosiah 3:

11 For behold, and also his blood atoneth for the sins of those who have fallen by the transgression of Adam, who have died not knowing the will of God concerning them, or who have ignorantly sinned

Let me see: you are now going to tell me that you are not going to take any notice of that because it comes from Mormons scriptures—as if I cared!

Actually, this is a Catholic principle (about the ignorant). I think it would be disingenuous for a Catholic to disregard the Book of Mormon. Catholics use the Catechism in the same light.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I asked this earlier in the thread but have not gotten an answer:

1. What is God’s grace sufficient for? For the salvation and transformation of all who come to Him in an effectual way
2. For whom is it sufficient? For those who are in Christ and wiil be in Christ.
3. Is it sufficient for the non elect , if so, what is it sufficient for? God’s grace is sufficient for those who it is intended for; to save all God intends to save, and accomplish all God intends to accomplish in regards to redemptive history to the praise of His glorious grace! :harp:. God is glorified in His sufficient amazing grace applied to His chosen ones (vessels of His mercy).

Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. - Holy Bible

The Light of the Gospel

Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God, we do not lose heart. But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God’s word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Apostolic Teaching by the Chief Sinner of mankind

 

[izoid]

I don’t think this is fair either, izoid. Although 2nd suffers from a deficient understanding of the natuar and role of the Church, I think has accepted as much of it as he is able to, given the limitations he is under.

I agree that it was an unfair comment. I was responding to his jabs at Mary in prior threads and should not have.

 

[2nd_Adam]

This is a very good explanation of what Calvinists think in regards to evangelism. They do evangelize however, they can not get away from the fact that God commanded it. It is usually simply in obedience and the results are not as important to them due to the factors that you stated.

That’s a completely untrue statement when you study church history. Study missions after the Reformation and you will find the most passionate missionaries and Evangelists were Calvinists! The First Great Awakening in America with Jonathan Edwards was grounded in Calvinism! Study about the great heroes of Protestant missionaries, and you will see it’s stacked on the Calvinist side!

 

[izoid]

That’s a completely untrue statement when you study church history. Study missions after the Reformation and you will find the most passionate missionaries and Evangelists were Calvinists!

Can you please tell me which part of the statement is untrue? Why is it that Calvinists evangelize?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Can you please tell me which part of the statement is untrue? Why is it that Calvinists evangelize?

You’re statement just shows your lack of knowledge about the history of Protestantism in regards to missions as well as the great evangelists and preachers within Protestantism. Please just study on your own.

Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. - Apostle Paul

Originally Posted by izoid
This is a very good explanation of what Calvinists think in regards to evangelism. They do evangelize however, they can not get away from the fact that God commanded it. It is usually simply in obedience and the results are not as important to them due to the factors that you stated.

That’s a completely untrue statement when you study church history. Study missions after the Reformation and you will find the most passionate missionaries and Evangelists were Calvinists! The First Great Awakening in America with Jonathan Edwards was grounded in Calvinism! Study about the great heroes of Protestant missionaries, and you will see it’s stacked on the Calvinist side!

 

[2nd_Adam]

Hey, since 2nd does not know, can you tell me when Cornelius was justified?

Good morning and let’s discuss the entire account of Cornelius. We need to go from Acts 10:1 through 11:18. You will find so much anti-Catholic Theology in those passages, that you will be sorry that you wanted to discuss Cornelius.

 

[izoid]

You’re statement just shows your lack of knowledge about the history of Protestantism in regards to missions as well as the great evangelists and preachers within Protestantism. Please just study on your own.

Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. - Apostle Paul

Again, no answer from Adam.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Can you please tell me which part of the statement is untrue? Why is it that Calvinists evangelize?

Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. - Apostle Paul

 

[2nd_Adam]

Again, no answer from Adam.

Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. - Apostle Paul

 

[izoid]

It seems to me like he answered them.

What scripture states is not what it sounds like it states. Jesus is not really like “Adam”, because his actions really don’t affect the whole human race. His grace is only sufficient for the Elect, so he is really a better reflection of Noah than Adam. The Apostles just missed the mark on that one. When Scripture states or implies that Jesus came for the whole world, it does not really mean that either. It means only the Elect who are in the world.

God’s grace is preservative, and is here to give all those that belong to Christ an opportunity to repent. It staves off the 'god of this world" even from the damned, so that there will be more time for the Elect to be found in Christ.

Doesn’t that answer your question?

Hey, since 2nd does not know, can you tell me when Cornelius was justified?

In Acts Chapter 10 we are introduced to Cornelius. He and his family are the first Gentile converts into the Christian faith. We are told that Cornelius was a virtuous man who always prayed and brought alms to the Lord, even before he was justified.

Later in the chapter we see that Cornelius and those who are with him are baptized into the faith. It is clearly through his and his families baptism that he is initiated, as the first Gentile, into the Chritian faith.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I agree that it was an unfair comment. I was responding to his jabs at Mary in prior threads and should not have.

Okay, please post the apparent jabs that you thnk I made about Mary. All I posted was Scripture references in regards to Mary.