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Brad
Guest
I suggest some serious prayer and scripture consultation if you are now more interested in seeing it knowing that it glorifies grown women taking advantage of a minor.
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buffalo
Guest
It’s called raising the bar, setting a higher standard. Would you be comfortable watching it with Jesus on one side of you and Mary on the other?
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irish80122
Guest
As a Notre Dame sophomore (as well as a transfer from Creighton University, which gives me knowledge of another Catholic Univeristy) I muts say that some of the programs presented at Notre Dame have been far more liberal than I was expecting (we didn’t have this at Creighton). I understand the calls for academic freedom but some of this has gone too far. First of all, I was REQUIRED by my Intro to Theatre class to see the Monologues. To be honest, I just didn’t feel comfortable doing so (I am part of pro-life on campus, which was actively protesting it, so I felt like a hypocrite). I did buy a ticket, because I had to but when it came to the play I walked in and walked out before it started. I just didn’t feel comfortable.
Another interesting presentation is the Queer Film Festival which we also have had going on recently. Now I know we need to support those students who are here that are gay, I know a few of them, but is this really neccesary? I know plenty of people disagree with me and think that this is a great thing to have but I think it really hurts our image, as you see on this board.
As for being a Catholic university I still think that Notre Dame is the most Catholic place I know. I know we do things like the QFF and Vagina Monologues (which our bishop is against, and yet we don’t care) but you have to look at the people. At Creighton I would say about 10% of students attended weekly Mass, and I am not kidding with that estimate. I know that for my floor that was the case. Here though it seems as if everyone goes and everyone practices the faith the right way. We all make mistakes, but you go to Sunday Mass here in the dorm and it is unreal; everyone is there. I went on a Holy Day of Obligation (I forget wihch one, sorry) to the Basilica and it was standing room only, it truly blew my mind. I literally called my father in tears telling him about it, I just couldn’t believe it. Notre Dame is still Catholic even though it may not look like it from the outside. The administration lets some crazy things happen and there are some crazy groups here but we are still made up of 80% Catholics, the dining halls serve absolutely no meat on Fridays during lent (Creighton couldn’t say that), and there are a ton of students out here who truly love the Lord. Try to remember that when you hear some of the things that go on out here; they truly outrage a great number of us as much as they outrage you. In my opinion, ND is still a very Catholic univerisity.
Another interesting presentation is the Queer Film Festival which we also have had going on recently. Now I know we need to support those students who are here that are gay, I know a few of them, but is this really neccesary? I know plenty of people disagree with me and think that this is a great thing to have but I think it really hurts our image, as you see on this board.
As for being a Catholic university I still think that Notre Dame is the most Catholic place I know. I know we do things like the QFF and Vagina Monologues (which our bishop is against, and yet we don’t care) but you have to look at the people. At Creighton I would say about 10% of students attended weekly Mass, and I am not kidding with that estimate. I know that for my floor that was the case. Here though it seems as if everyone goes and everyone practices the faith the right way. We all make mistakes, but you go to Sunday Mass here in the dorm and it is unreal; everyone is there. I went on a Holy Day of Obligation (I forget wihch one, sorry) to the Basilica and it was standing room only, it truly blew my mind. I literally called my father in tears telling him about it, I just couldn’t believe it. Notre Dame is still Catholic even though it may not look like it from the outside. The administration lets some crazy things happen and there are some crazy groups here but we are still made up of 80% Catholics, the dining halls serve absolutely no meat on Fridays during lent (Creighton couldn’t say that), and there are a ton of students out here who truly love the Lord. Try to remember that when you hear some of the things that go on out here; they truly outrage a great number of us as much as they outrage you. In my opinion, ND is still a very Catholic univerisity.
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condan
Guest
You seem to fixated with people not seeing the “play” yet several of us have said that we have. Ignored. I saw it and didn’t like it because the premise is stupid. Vaginas don’t need their own community any more than my liver or spleen need one. It makes women look stupid, pure and simple. Further, it shows same-sex sexual molestation of a minor in a very positive light, as something that should be encouraged.
I came very close to being sexually molested by a lesbian when I was ten. I thought she was a teenage boy. I bolted when I found out she was a female. But the fact is that she was willingly trying to trick me into having a sexual encounter with her. She was also molesting my friend. Nice, huh? These are the folks who you think should be presenting a “play” on a college campus? Exactly just what is it that they are adding to society? That’s what I’m curious about. Enlighten me. And, while you’re at it, make up for my lost innocence please.
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condan
Guest
You seem to fixated with people not seeing the “play” yet several of us have said that we have. Ignored. I saw it and didn’t like it because the premise is stupid. I can tell you from personal experience that vaginas don’t need their own community any more than my liver or spleen need one. Its a body part, for Pete’s sake! It makes women look stupid, pure and simple. Further, it shows same-sex sexual molestation of a minor in a very positive light, as something that should be encouraged.
I came very close to being sexually molested by a lesbian when I was ten. I thought she was a teenage boy. I bolted when I found out she was a female. But the fact is that she was willingly trying to trick me into having a sexual encounter with her. She was also molesting my friend. Nice, huh? These are the folks who you think should be presenting a “play” on a college campus? Exactly just what is it that they are adding to society? That’s what I’m curious about. Enlighten me. And, while you’re at it, make up for my lost innocence please.
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sbcoral
Guest
Lisa N:
I am pretty sure that the VM would not be for me, especially since I do not have a V, but don’t think it should be banned from public performance for any reason.
If that’s what happens with the woman and the teen, of course that’s wrong, but immoral and even illegal conduct is portrayed in various art forms all the time (R-rated movies, etc). What’s the difference?
I am pretty sure that the VM would not be for me, especially since I do not have a V, but don’t think it should be banned from public performance for any reason.
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sbcoral
Guest
Very sorry about what happened to you when you were ten, but please don’t blame the writers/producers of this show for that. I don’t know that art has to add anything concrete to society to be considered worthwhile; again, I haven’t seen the show so I can’t say. You have seen it - good - and your opinion is your opinion.
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Lisa_N
Guest
sbcoral, the point is that this is not a commercial production in a secular venue where people can decide whether or not they wish to attend. That would be a PUBLIC performance because it would be sponsored by the public and attended by people who actually WANT to attend. Did you see the post where a Notre Dame student was REQUIRED to attend this production? Do you understand that Notre Dame is not a secular organization, it is (supposedly) a Catholic college and thus the kind of “art” that the college would be expected to sponsor and support should be in keeping with its Catholic heritage.
That is what people are objecting to. They are not saying the production should be banned everywhere but that it is not appropriate for a religious, private institution to support a play/film/festival that is in direct opposition to their teachings. If you go to mass you do not expect to see a strip show. Would banning a strip show at your parish be ‘censorship?’ After all we have strips shows in other areas…understand the difference?
You have to wonder about the administration of this college. A queer film festival? Illegal behavior being championed? When did common sense fall off their radar screens?
Lisa N
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fix
Guest
Lisa N:
When sodomy entered.
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condan
Guest
Its as much art as the jar of urine with the crucifix in it. And, since you haven’t seen the show, why do you call it art? Isn’t that making an assumption based on complete ignorance of the subject matter?
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Brad
Guest
Lisa N:
At the same time their personal agenda became more important than the welfare of the students.
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A_Chaoidh
Guest
This is a sports based money machine. I don’t know how much influence the Bishop would have as it is a University run by CSC, Holy Cross Fathers.
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ThornGenX
Guest
This almost makes me glad I can not afford to go to a Catholic University. Though if by some miracle I did get enough money to afford it, I would check to be sure the University in question really is Catholic.
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Lisa4Catholics
Guest
What do you mean please don’t blame the writers/producers
Look what keeps going over your head is that the writers and producers of the"PLAY" are trying to normalise molesting.So what you are saying is that if it works its not their fault for misleading it is the fault of the mislead.Both are at fault.The molested isn’t!
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monica_fan
Guest
Good point, Lisa. I suppose all those that think this is okay are alright for priests to be molesting young boys also. Let’s not be hypocrites here. It’s either right or it’s wrong.
Lisa4Catholics:
What do you mean please don’t blame the writers/producers
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sbcoral
Guest
Lisa N:
I hear you, Lisa. But what kind of “art” then is acceptable at Catholic colleges? Paintings of the Madonna? Passion plays? Should every work of art that might project an immoral or amoral idea be excluded from the campus? We would have to ban pretty much all 20th century literature from English classes, if that was the case, plus a lot more. College kids need to be exposed to a broad range of ideas to form good, critical minds, even if some of those ideas might not jibe with what we want them to think.
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sbcoral
Guest
Art can be defined in a lot of ways, but broadly speaking any creative production is art. Plays are forms of art, as are paintings and movies. That jar of urine sure was an offensive work of art. Art isn’t always pretty and nice. It can be challenging and upsetting. Some of the best art is like that.
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Rach620
Guest
This makes me so happy, because I will be a freshman at ND next year and I’ve heard the exact same thing: theologically, it’s not the most orthodox place on the planet, but the students are still very spiritual and live out their faith in other ways. Sure, ND really shouldn’t be sponsoring the VM or a Queer Film Festival, but that doesn’t mean it’s not an authentic Catholic university. Don’t get me wrong, I wish all Catholic schools could adhere faithfully to Catholic teaching… but almost nowhere does that happen.
When I was visiting colleges last year and deciding where I wanted to go, I looked into many options. I really wanted to go to a Catholic school, but it was also important to me that the school have a good reputation and that I would be able to be successful after I graduated. I visited lots of schools… Catholic University of America in DC, Franciscan U of Steubenville, Providence College, to name a few. For various reasons I didn’t like any of them… but I fell in love with ND. I really wanted a school that taught fully orthodox theology (which is why I considered Franciscan…) but also one where I felt comfortable and felt that all around the education was great. It’s not “crossing over to the dark side” to go to Notre Dame. It saddens me that some people are completely writing it off as just another Catholic university that’s gone secular… because it’s really not.
Just as a final note… what good does it do to judge schools that don’t abide fully to church teaching as “no longer Catholic” and ignore them? Isn’t the best hope for change from within? Aren’t the students from ND Students for Life (by the way, I saw your banner in DC at the pro-life march! ;o)) who protested the VM a bit of hope for the future? Just a thought…
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condan
Guest
Thanks Professor.
One of the basic requirements for something to be called “art” is to embody, to some degree, beauty. It is meant to please the eye and to evoke emotion. To be called “art”, the creator needs to use a specific skill or talent.
Art is not meant to be upsetting nor is it meant to offend or degrade. The VM does both. It isn’t remotely art by any stretch of the meaning of the word.
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Lisa_N
Guest
First how can you possibly equate a painting of the Madonna with what was basically a homosexual rape? Same with the Passion. Those are appropriate art forms for a Catholic college. They might not be appropriate in a public college although certainly studying Raphael probably doesn’t hurt anyone.
However the issue is the SPONSORSHIP and the FUNDING of this offensive play. If the underwriters wish to put on VM in the same city and ND students like everyone can choose to attend or not to attend, that is fine. But why should parents who are paying for their child to have a Catholic education see their money diverted to a play that extols homosexual rape, objectifies and degrades women as body parts, and promotes activities that are not only sinful but against the law?
Realize that all art must be taken in context. Many literature departments disdain Huckleberry Finn for the racial slurs and stereotypes. But again it was written at a different time and if students are sufficiently sophisticated to understand the context then HF should not be on a banned book list. Similarly anyone who’s studied Greek plays sees a LOT of violence, incest, rapes, and all kinds of horrific acts. But remember the CONTEXT. These were written thousands of years ago. VM is a modern production that promotes violation of modern laws and mores.
Lisa N
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