The Vatican II changes in Liturgy

[CilladeRoma]

And it is one of the reasons for the Constitution on Sacred Liturgy.
Full, active, participation in the liturgy does not include private devotions.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

That the laity were often seen praying the Rosary during Mass was due to the inability to follow the Mass has been stated so frequently that one would believe it’s true. But that is not the case.

Exactly, praying the rosary was not because people could not follow the Mass.

I grew up in the 1950’s and saw people praying the Rosary during Mass

To deny this is a tap dance around reality in order to attack the Vatican II changes.

CradleRC58 did not say it didn’t happen. It absolutely did happen and some still pray the rosary during Mass, though mostly in the TLM but the reason why it happened and still happens is not because they did not understand the Mass. They probably understood it better than many do today.

And it is one of the reasons for the Constitution on Sacred Liturgy.
Full, active, participation in the liturgy

While it is true that the Constitution on Sacred Liturgy is asking for full, active, participation, in the past people praying the rosary during Mass was not because they could not understand the Mass or were not participating.

Prior to Vatican II Catholics focused more on the “sacrifice” of the Mass, the Calvary of the Mass, rather than the meal of the Last Supper, so when praying the rosary they were in prayer standing with the Blessed Mother at the cross, at His death, and asking for her prayers before receiving her son. They knew, which a lot of Catholics do not know today, is that the priest was not talking to them when he prays but to God.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

But they did pray the Rosary because they didn’t follow along in the Mass due to not being able to and Latin had much to do with it. especially where the priest and altar boys mumbled the words to fast for many to follow along with their missals.

 

[CilladeRoma]

Prior to Vatican II Catholics focused more on the “sacrifice” of the Mass, the Calvary of the Mass, rather than the meal of the Last Supper, so when praying the rosary they were in prayer standing with the Blessed Mother at the cross, at His death, and asking for her prayers before receiving her son. They knew, which a lot of Catholics do not know today, is that the priest was not talking to them when he prays but to God.

That sounds good, but . . . every single person I know who experienced the Mass prior to 1965 has told me the exact same thing-
“I never want to go back to that time!”

The priest did his thing, the people in the pews did theirs. Some prayed the rosary, some read devotionals, some just sat there. The men usually hung outside smoking, just waiting to hear the bells.
Some may have had the theological knowledge you are speaking of, but certainly not all, or even most.
If they did, there would have been no reason to change the Mass.

 

[Michael_Anthony]

I’m sure when the organ was first invented, there were those who opposed it’s use at Mass.

Actually, in the early church, many declared that the horns were “so profane” (pagan) that they would never be welcome in a church service, now the most venerated instrument (save the human voice) in the church is the pipe organ. What is a pipe organ? It’s a bunch of horns strapped together with a bellows driving it instead of a pair of lungs.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

sounds good, but it’s a lot of malarkey.
Every single person I know who experienced the Mass prior to 1965 has told me the exact same thing-
“I never want to go back to that time!

Hmm. I wonder if the martyrs and saints of the past that said it was the most beautiful thing they ever experienced and who gave us so much wisdom in their writings and became doctors of the Church would agree or is the feeling that its malarkey just coming from recent generations. Makes you wonder.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

But they did pray the Rosary because they didn’t follow along in the Mass

My father prayed the rosary before Mass and if he wasn’t finished with it when Mass started he continued it through Mass until finished and it wasn’t because he didn’t understand the Mass, he knew all the responses and was never an altar boy. It was because he was, as so many others, extremely devoted to the Blessed Mother and was asking for her prayers.

There was a whole lot of love for our Lord throughout Church history and people were smarter than we think.

When my parents died both of their missals were very well used.

God bless.

 

[GiftofMercy]

Really? Off topic?

Yes, this discussion about the organ use and organists is not about liturgical changes. Perhaps start a new thread. I am happy to discuss it there. The organ has been in place since the Cathedral was built in the 1800s, has been in constant use and its use in the Liturgy has been ongoing. The question of who uses it and how people are trained to play it, really isn’t one of liturgy, as certainly unions and music guilds are not.

@CilladeRoma I can assure you those who play the Pipe Organ and supervise its playing are not amateurs. However we must remember that music is for the Assembly, for everyone, in the Liturgy. It performs several functions,
it enacts certain rites,
it supports certain aspects of liturgy.
The function of liturgical music is a universal one, not a concert performance.

 

[stpurl]

Who is ‘they’? What percentage do you claim prayed the rosary only because they ‘could not follow’ the Mass?

If you’re claiming it’s 100%, you need to back that up with facts, because there are people out there, including people our age, who did and do ‘follow the Mass’, then and now, and yet still prayed at times during a low Mass.

Full and active participation does not mean that contemplative prayer (including the rosary) might not ever be a part of Mass.

And in today’s N.O., we have people, and I can vouch on this because it is my situation, who go to Mass and do not have full and active participation, and I’ll tell you why, Jim.

It’s because our priest ad libs.

Every other person in the parishes across the US says a penitential rite (there are three listed for Sunday Mass).
We do not. We have no penitential rite and thus, no active participation. Father just talks at the start of Mass, ad lib, sometimes on fishing, sometimes on sports, sometimes on politics.

Every other US Catholic says or sings the Gloria in season, and a creed, either Nicene, Apostles, or the baptismal promises, every Sunday. We do not. In nearly 6 years at this parish, the only times I have heard either is if there is a visiting priest. Father does not say the Gloria or the Creed because he does not care to do so.

So we lack full and active participation in these two great prayers of the Mass.

We do not have full and active participation in the Eucharistic prayer because we do not hear the prayers that other Catholics in other parishes hear. We do not hear the words of consecration in the way that every other US Catholic does, so we are not joining our prayers and voices to theirs.

Every single Sunday, even though we get up, have long drawn out signs of peace (lots of peace signs flashing too), have people holding hands during the Our Father, sing the hymn sandwiches, sit, stand and kneel, we do not have full and active participation in the Mass.

ours is an extreme case, true. But the point is that in the EF, even if the participation was on a contemplative basis, even if the words were said quietly by some, even if the words were in a different language, even if some people were reading, others praying, others ‘watching’, those things were all part of the Mass and equally ‘participatory’.

With the OF, the Church decided that certain prayers always needed to be audible, certain words always needed to be said.

So the people praying the rosary at the Low Mass (EF) got to participate fully.

But the people at my OF Mass, the ones for whom supposedly having an EF would have led to them not being able to ‘hear’, or not having a clearly heard, clearly written format so that people would be able to see, hear, and participate in something at every Mass. . .don’t get to do that.

Irony alert, anybody? I would have more participation praying the Rosary at the EF (full, active) than I do going to my supposedly fully participatory Mass in X Parish in the USA, where we aren’t allowed to be doing what all the others at any other OF Mass in the US are doing.

 

[Peeps]

Cathedral was built in the 1800s, has been in constant use and its use in the Liturgy has been ongoing. The question of who uses it and how people are trained to play it, really isn’t one of liturgy, as certainly unions and music guilds are not.

Actually, it’s very much a question of liturgy. If no one will play your organ because you are blacklisted (you are fortunate that people are willing to step up), then you have a shorter liturgy, It’s still correct, but it certainly isn’t as energizing, and to those who love music, it’s just plain…plain.

Our parish organ and choir was blacklisted, but not because of fee structure. It was because of a homosexual issue. Thankfully our fine music director (who receives a salary, BTW), was willing to ignore the blacklist and play anyway.

 

[GiftofMercy]

That is sad Stpurl. I attend an EF where we say the Rosary beforehand. The EF Celebrant speaks loud enough for everyone to hear and follow along in the missal given out before the Mass. Our EF mass is growing and growing, those who organise it are ensuring we understand what is going on.
I must say in the OF Mass in the Choir loft i cannot hear a thing the celebrant is saying. We do recite the Creed, usually the Apostles Creed, and say or sing the Gloria. This should be sung except for a few exceptions. We have several priests, mostly young and from foreign countries, who always ask we sing the Gloria. Other more home grown Priests consider it too long to sing, so recite it.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

“They” are the people in the pews at the Masses I attended back in the 1950’s

What percentage you demand ? I don’t know, but are you claiming I’m lying unless I can back it up with documentation ?

Full and active participation does not mean that contemplative prayer (including the rosary) might not ever be a part of Mass

If you’re praying the Rosary during Mass, you’re not fully engaged in the Mass, but split between the Rosary and the Mass. You can’t do both at the same time.

I’m a Secular Order Discalced Carmelite, OCDS, who has studied and been practicing contemplative prayer for a very long time. This is not what the Vatican II Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy was addressing, but, active participation in the responses, music, readings and other areas that were reserved exclusively for the priest before.

The N.O. is very Contemplative and Contemplatives know this, just as all prayer is contemplative for them.

There will always be a small percentage of people who don’t actively participate in the hymns and responses. But it’s nothing like before Vatican II. I was there, were you ?

Do you believe Vatican II was called by St John XXIII because he was a heretic and wanted to destroy the Mass ?

If the Church decides to go back to making the TLM the ordinary, praise God.

If not, Praise God !

.

 

[CradleRC58]

I grew up in the 1950’s and saw people praying the Rosary during Mass

No surprise there. My post acknowledged that. Along with the actual reasons you saw it.

Here’s one example.

“Moreover, the needs and inclinations of all are not the same, nor are they always constant in the same individual. Who, then, would say, on account of such a prejudice, that all these Christians cannot participate in the Mass nor share its fruits? On the contrary, they can adopt some other method which proves easier for certain people; for instance, they can lovingly meditate on the mysteries of Jesus Christ or perform other exercises of piety or recite prayers which, though they differ from the sacred rites, are still essentially in harmony with them.” (Encyclical Mediator Dei , 11/20/1947, n. 108)

 

[CilladeRoma]

I’m sorry, but this has been going on for 6 years and your Bishop has done nothing about it? No one has complained?
I live in one of the most liberal dioceses in the US and this doesn’t even happen here. Not after the first or 2nd time, anyway.
Sorry, I’m not buying it.

 

[CradleRC58]

Can you provide a link or quote a document backing up your assertion ?

 

[CilladeRoma]

Read the Constitution on Sacred Liturgy. You can find it on the Vatican website. The very first few paragraphs should give you what you want.

 

[CradleRC58]

That is a constantly perpetuated myth. Every word of it. Repeatedly stated as fact, when it is simply an opinion.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Saying the Rosary is a private devotion.

The Mass, is the highest prayer in the Church and is to be celebrated among the community in union with Christ and each other. A person can not do this if they’re focused separately in a devotion of their own liking. They should be fully engaged in the Mass, not their private devotion.

Read the Vatican II Document on the Constitution of the Sacred Liturgy. It provides a very good reason for the reform

And while your in that document, besure to read near the bottom how the Vatican allowed the Bishops a time of experimentation on the changes to see how well they were received.

Fact is, they were so well received that what we see today is what the Bishops saw as being what the Holy Spirit was inspiring the Church to do.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

So you’re calling me a liar ?

Ask those of us who were there, but better yet, read the Vatican II Document on the Constitution of the Sacred Liturgy. At the very beginning, they provide the reason for calling for reform of the Liturgy.

 

[CradleRC58]

Does it abrogate Mediator Dei or the same Congregation’s decree/ clarification of Leo XIII’s Supremi Apostolatus ?