The War on Women

[kozlosap]

I suppose they were just as desperate when they decided to have sex?

1. It takes two to tango
2. I certainly hope that if you find yourself in a situation that seems beyond your capacity to deal with that no one ever questions your motives.

 

[rmartensjr]

Prisons will be full, and abortion clinics will be closed.
What’s the use illegalizing something and then give the offenders immunity?

What, YOU want to put women in prison?

 

[Sarcelle]

What, YOU want to put women in prison?

I have met Christians that want the death sentence for women who have had abortions.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Peter Plato;13225766:

I suppose they were just as desperate when they decided to have sex?

1. It takes two to tango
2. I certainly hope that if you find yourself in a situation that seems beyond your capacity to deal with that no one ever questions your motives.

I’m not sure which world you live in but in the real one everyone everywhere finds themselves in situations that seem beyond our capacity to deal with. What do you mean “if?”

Every decision I’ve made in my entire life, I have been a bigger questioner of my motives than anyone around me. I don’t know of too many that do more to question their motives than I do of my own. I take Socrates very seriously - the unexamined life IS NOT worth living. If you are an unabashed seeker of truth you need to get used to questioning your own motives AND questioning the motives you have for questioning your motives.

Questioning motives ought to be raised to the level of art, not disparaged.

Nice try at feelbad - you’re not dealing with a five year old, however. :jrbirdman:

 

[James_Tyler]

Peter Plato;13225766:

I suppose they were just as desperate when they decided to have sex?

1. It takes two to tango
2. I certainly hope that if you find yourself in a situation that seems beyond your capacity to deal with that no one ever questions your motives.

You don’t think it’s worth questioning the motives when a child is slain?

 

[CatholicHockey7]

This thread keeps going round in circles. Every time I check it, the same arguments are being reworded.

Let’s just admit it, there is a war on women being waged, and it is being waged by men. Just not the men you think it is.

 

[CatholicHockey7]

On another note, I’ve noticed a few of you arguing in favor of abortion who list “Catholic” as your faith. I would like to remind you that as Catholics we are called to respect life from CONCEPTION to natural death. There is no pro-choice argument that can be reconciled with this important part of our faith.

If you truly support abortion, even if you would never chose it for yourself, you should either change your views or change your faith. By actively supporting the pro-choice agenda, you may also incur upon yourselves an automatic excommunication in accordance with Canon Law.

At the very least, supporting abortion places you outside the state of grace necessary to receive the Eucharist until such time as you make a full and authentic confession. This includes a firm recognition that the action was sinful and a commitment to change.

 

[francisca]

Originally Posted by francisca
If you agree to do something illegal while being put on surgery table, you are helpless.
these women at their lowest point of their lives: pregnant and broken hearted and confused and hormonally up and down, feel sick, and they decide drastic measures out of desperation

Obviously you’re bias towards men’s interest.
The man put her into desperate situation!

 

[francisca]

What, YOU want to put women in prison?

Not me. They do. Please read previous posts. Thankyou for your comment though. I’m glad that you express your concern

 

[francisca]

I have met Christians that want the death sentence for women who have had abortions.

“Men’s pro-life” is about “punishing desperate women who has made bad choices”

 

[francisca]

Questioning motives ought to be raised to the level of art, not disparaged.

Nice try at feelbad - you’re not dealing with a five year old, however. :jrbirdman:

So you think you’re a judge. You judge people’s motives to the level of art.

Let me guess, you think women shoud be judged for having sex, but not men… ?

 

[francisca]

kozlosap;13226018:

You don’t think it’s worth questioning the motives when a child is slain?

Would you support illegalizing porn? There is no harm in illegalizing porn. It will help lessen media exposure that send message about adulterous behavior that produce unwanted pregnancy that causes abortions.

Judge your own motives by your own answer to this question.

 

[francisca]

On another note, I’ve noticed a few of you arguing in favor of abortion who list “Catholic” as your faith. I would like to remind you that as Catholics we are called to respect life from CONCEPTION to natural death. There is no pro-choice argument that can be reconciled with this important part of our faith.

If you truly support abortion, even if you would never chose it for yourself, you should either change your views or change your faith. By actively supporting the pro-choice agenda, you may also incur upon yourselves an automatic excommunication in accordance with Canon Law.

At the very least, supporting abortion places you outside the state of grace necessary to receive the Eucharist until such time as you make a full and authentic confession. This includes a firm recognition that the action was sinful and a commitment to change.

I am pro-life.
When you illegalize aboriton, it doesn’t stop abortion.
illegalizing abortion doesn’t support pro-life works. it hinders it.
It’s work focus on punishment, and not saving the woman neither the fetus.

I am pro-life.
I want to keep abortion legal so that pro-life work can continue.

 

[Murmurs]

I am pro-life.
When you illegalize aboriton, it doesn’t stop abortion.
illegalizing abortion doesn’t support pro-life works. it hinders it.
It’s work focus on punishment, and not saving the woman neither the fetus.

I am pro-life.
I want to keep abortion legal so that pro-life work can continue.

Exactly. I entirely agree. And I imagine that most “pro-choice Catholics” as we are labelled, hold the same position. Certainly all the ones I know do.

The demand for abortion is so great (horrifically), that making it illegal will simply (a) drive it underground where there are no controls or limits at all and (b) seriously endanger the lives of many women who try and obtain one (to say nothing of further overcrowding an already creaking prison system). The key is to educate and empower women (and, as many have pointed out, men, ie fathers, too).

Being against abortion isn’t about taking part in the War on Women. However many opponents of abortion unwittingly give fodder for supporters of it by their actions, words, and attitudes.

I think a “market” approach is the only long-term effective one: reduce the demand as much as possible - and this is also the only way to win the ‘war’ on drugs, too, by the way.

PS. Francisca - I’m all for making pornography illegal, but it presents (a) an obvious free-speech issue, but perhaps more difficult is that (b) how does one (and who) determines what is “pornographic” (as a lot of ‘sexualised’ stuff in one culture is perfectly normal in another, for instance)

 

[sarah_j]

This “right” to have abortions endowed by “the law and the courts” presumes that these entities have the authority to endow basic rights like the right to life on human beings along with the “right” for some to take the lives of others from them. If the “law and the courts” do have that kind of authority to endow those kinds of rights, then it logically follows that they must have presumed to themselves the authority to revoke the right to life FROM some human beings. In this case, unborn children.

Where exactly did the law and the courts obtain the authority to endow and revoke the right to life? Human governments - and, by extension, legal systems - are collections of human beings. Since when do collections of human beings assume to themselves the authority to determine the right to life or moral values in general? At what critical mass point do human societies obtain the authority to revoke basic moral rights? Can you answer that?

The larger point that I am making is that human moral agents have a responsibility to live up to the standards of morality. We - no matter how many of us band together - do NOT retain the authority to originate or rewrite morality. We are obligated to morality, we do not have authority over it.

The law and the courts (and the legislative bodies that are above these) have the responsibility to uphold just laws to the best of their ability. Just laws derive from sound morality and do not determine morality itself. When the law and courts (or any government) takes upon itself the authority to author morality, that is when these have superseded their just responsibility by attempting to originate rather than uphold morality.

The most absurd statement relative to abortion was made by Justice Kennedy in the Casey Decision when he basically stated that human beings have a right to determine their own morality, thus undermining all moral systems and laws, and supplanting them with moral relativism. We have been seeing the fruits of that “decision” ever since and will continue to do so until this “civilization” collapses under the moral chaos tacitly endorsed by a legal system which has given absurdity and immorality free reign.

I am so sick of the pro-abortionists pointing out that Planned Parenthood hasn’t
done anything illegal.

 

[sarah_j]

I am pro-life.
When you illegalize aboriton, it doesn’t stop abortion.
illegalizing abortion doesn’t support pro-life works. it hinders it.
It’s work focus on punishment, and not saving the woman neither the fetus.

I am pro-life.
I want to keep abortion legal so that pro-life work can continue.

Double think.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublethink

 

[Peter_Plato]

Obviously you’re bias towards men’s interest.
The man put her into desperate situation!

As kozlosap has ruefully pointed out, “it takes two to tango.”

Your insistence that “the man put her into the desperate situation,” is, of course, showing no bias with regard to who ought to take responsibility and assumes women are powerless with regard to making decisions about when, where and with whom to have sex. Apart from the obvious cases of rape where they aren’t, you are claiming that men are ALWAYS responsible for putting women “into the desperate situation.”

If your view of women as “weak” and powerless is true, then I would suggest that until women lose that conception of themselves and begin to make decisions for themselves regarding their reproductive capability, abortion will always be a problem. Your alleged “porn is the cause” diagnosis would simply be nullified and shown up for what it is - an obvious case of hypochondria on the part of women Iike you who ought to take a different view of themselves and by doing so almost completely solve the problem.

Take that as a bias towards the potential for women to make a difference BECAUSE THEY CAN.

Your position merely assumes they are and always will be powerless BECAUSE it is always the men who “put them” there.

Your blaming “the man” and claiming I am “bias” [sic] towards men’s interest completely misses the fact that you are assuming the incapacity of women to make a difference or to have any responsibility. Speaking of bias, do you see NO problem with what is your obviously biased and disturbed portrayal of women?

If there really is a “war on women” then the obvious answer is for women to start a resistance campaign and stop having sex instead of laying down their arms (literally) allowing men to put them “into that desperate situation.” What you are advocating, it seems, is to keep allowing men to lord it over women by women doing nothing to fight back except nibble at the edges of the problem.

Has it ever occurred to you that the production of porn would be given a huge rout if women would simply stop posing? Now, of course, you will insist that women can’t do that because they are powerless in that area, as well. AND my suggesting such a solution shows my bias for men and against the convenient option for women to feign powerlessness and, thereby, always find men at fault for EVERYTHING.

 

[SWolf]

As kozlosap has ruefully pointed out, “it takes two to tango.”

Your insistence that “the man put her into the desperate situation,” is, of course, showing no bias with regard to who ought to take responsibility and assumes women are powerless with regard to making decisions about when, where and with whom to have sex. Apart from the obvious cases of rape where they aren’t, you are claiming that men are ALWAYS responsible for putting women “into the desperate situation.”

If your view of women as “weak” and powerless is true, then I would suggest that until women lose that conception of themselves and begin to make decisions for themselves regarding their reproductive capability, abortion will always be a problem. Your alleged “porn is the cause” diagnosis would simply be nullified and shown up for what it is - an obvious case of hypochondria on the part of women Iike you who ought to take a different view of themselves and by doing so almost completely solve the problem.

Take that as a bias towards the potential for women to make a difference BECAUSE THEY CAN.

Your position merely assumes they are and always will be powerless BECAUSE it is always the men who “put them” there.

Your blaming “the man” and claiming I am “bias” [sic] towards men’s interest completely misses the fact that you are assuming the incapacity of women to make a difference or to have any responsibility. Speaking of bias, do you see NO problem with what is your obviously biased and disturbed portrayal of women?

If there really is a “war on women” then the obvious answer is for women to start a resistance campaign and stop having sex instead of laying down their arms (literally) allowing men to put them “into that desperate situation.” What you are advocating, it seems, is to keep allowing men to lord it over women by women doing nothing to fight back except nibble at the edges of the problem.

Has it ever occurred to you that the production of porn would be given a huge rout if women would simply stop posing? Now, of course, you will insist that women can’t do that because they are powerless in that area, as well. AND my suggesting such a solution shows my bias for men and against the convenient option for women to feign powerlessness and, thereby, always find men at fault for EVERYTHING.

I feel like the more you peel the layers away from a feminist, the closer you get to a woman who thinks they are incapable of moral, rational action. Hence the blame of everyone else but themselves.

It’s funny that’s more in line with the thinking of a misogynist than an empowered human being.

 

[francisca]

Exactly. I entirely agree. And I imagine that most “pro-choice Catholics” as we are labelled, hold the same position. Certainly all the ones I know do.

The demand for abortion is so great (horrifically), that making it illegal will simply (a) drive it underground where there are no controls or limits at all and (b) seriously endanger the lives of many women who try and obtain one (to say nothing of further overcrowding an already creaking prison system). The key is to educate and empower women (and, as many have pointed out, men, ie fathers, too).

Being against abortion isn’t about taking part in the War on Women. However many opponents of abortion unwittingly give fodder for supporters of it by their actions, words, and attitudes.

I think a “market” approach is the only long-term effective one: reduce the demand as much as possible - and this is also the only way to win the ‘war’ on drugs, too, by the way.

PS. Francisca - I’m all for making pornography illegal, but it presents (a) an obvious free-speech issue, but perhaps more difficult is that (b) how does one (and who) determines what is “pornographic” (as a lot of ‘sexualised’ stuff in one culture is perfectly normal in another, for instance)

Yes exactly

Pro-life work is not identical with making abortion illegal. I keep repeating myself
“If we cant locate the women therefore we cant save the fetus”

I’m glad that at least somebody say “I’m all for making porn illegal”, eventhough I know many women would. I am wondering if there are men who also have some capability to grasp the thought that porn causes abortion. Argument to illegalize porn will eventually formed one day when we have seen PP scandal, and still think that it is the nature of women to kill their fetus for pleasure, such argument will fall miserably in the name of Jesus amen! And regarding freedom of speech, if porn is proven to change human brain and nature (there are brain science study regarding this matter), it’s no longer about ‘freedom of speech’. We’ll be praying that the Lord will show us the way to the thruth so then we will come out from this circle of “prejudice towards women” as a product of porn-inspired culture of men kind of “deep wisdom” :yawn:

Pardon me for yawning, Murmur

and May The Lord Bless us!

 

[Peter_Plato]

I feel like the more you peel the layers away from a feminist, the closer you get to a woman who thinks they are incapable of moral, rational action. Hence the blame of everyone else but themselves.

It’s funny that’s more in line with the thinking of a misogynist than an empowered human being.

A “war of women” which has its main supply lines fed by a large number of women just makes you think someone doesn’t really understand the phrase, “Know thine enemy.” Women could dry up the supply lines and end the supposed war NOW. So why don’t they? (Assuming Francisca has her bead on the right target.)

But your general point is well taken. Goes back to Eve’s “The snake made me do it.” Unfortunately, most of us men are no better: “The woman made me do it.”

The real war is between the principalities of the fallen world and God. Our only role is to pick a side and be loyal to it (faith) instead of attempting to play both sides as if WE are the real power brokers. We ain’t. Lewis’ Screwtape Letters pretty much nails it.