There's no OSAS

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sandusky said:
The verification set forth by God that Christ was who He said He was is in the works that Christ performed; likewise with the apostles:Acts 2:22

“Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know—

Acts 2:43

**Everyone kept feeling a sense of awe; and many wonders and signs were taking place through the apostles. **

2 Corinthians 12:12

**The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance, by signs and wonders and miracles.**True apostles perform signs, wonders, miracles. 🤷
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Well the best way to handle this is to use your own line:

That was then, now is now.👍
 
JRKH said:
This thread is approaching 300 posts and certain things are clear.
Those who hold to OSAS have posted Bible verses supporting OSAS.
Those who oppose OSAS have posted Bible verses opposing OSAS.
Since the Bible cannot contradict itself, OSAS must be flawed.

Those who hold that Catholics believe in “works” salvation have ignored every effort by the Catholics here to make clear that the Church DOES NOT TEACH A WORKS BASED SALVATION.

So what is left? Semantics and rediculous details which are the arguments of people whose basic positions are weak. This is a sin of pride.

Ever siince the Protestant Revolution took hold, and tore the Bible away from Christ’s Church, ever new and disturbing “revelations”, and “understandings” have been put forth. Denominations have split and split again - thousands of them. ALL of this is SPIRIT INSPIRED?

Ever since the Bible has been seperated from the Church, ever increasing protestant denominations have been trying to “reinvent the wheel” to “get back to pure christianity”, but they can’t.
Why? because the early Church:
  1. Didn’t have “The Bible”, they were writing it - and
  2. The Early Church was Catholic.
Those protestants who are wise, and really begin to look into this with intellectual honesty will find this to be true. many will become Catholic. As for the rest, many will succumb to the confusion and lies of the Evil one.

But as for Me and My House, we will Serve the Lord.
We will reside in the Glory of His, One, True Holy and Apostolic Church, Tested by fire through the ages and built on the Rock.

Peace
James
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Amen, James! 👍 I am Catholic out of obedience. Many became and remain Protestant out of disobedience. Three things we must do to follow Christ:
  1. Deny yourself - your opinions, desires, wants, even needs.
  2. Take up your cross - that which afflicts you, burdens you, the
    “thorn in the side” of which Paul spoke.
  3. Follow Christ - Having done both of the above.
What did Christ tell the rich young man who wanted eternal life?
  1. Sell your possessions (Deny yourself)
  2. Give the money to the poor (take up your cross - his love of possessions and money)
  3. Follow Christ.
The spirit of antichrist has appealed to the ego. First to the ego of early heretics, then later to Luther and those who began with him, but then split off even from his movement. Now, the spirit of antichrist has exploited our American fascination with individualism and is leading so many of us to become our own church. Lord, have mercy!

The unity of Christ be with all of us.

Denial of self is obedience to Christ.
 
po18guy said:
Amen, James! 👍 I am Catholic out of obedience. Many became and remain Protestant out of disobedience. Three things we must do to follow Christ:
  1. Deny yourself - your opinions, desires, wants, even needs.
  2. Take up your cross - that which afflicts you, burdens you, the
    “thorn in the side” of which Paul spoke.
  3. Follow Christ - Having done both of the above.
What did Christ tell the rich young man who wanted eternal life?
  1. Sell your possessions (Deny yourself)
  2. Give the money to the poor (take up your cross - his love of possessions and money)
  3. Follow Christ.
The spirit of antichrist has appealed to the ego. First to the ego of early heretics, then later to Luther and those who began with him, but then split off even from his movement. Now, the spirit of antichrist has exploited our American fascination with individualism and is leading so many of us to become our own church. Lord, have mercy!

The unity of Christ be with all of us.

Denial of self is obedience to Christ.
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I like this. I will think of it often.
 
po18guy said:
Amen, James! 👍 I am Catholic out of obedience. Many became and remain Protestant out of disobedience. Three things we must do to follow Christ:
  1. Deny yourself - your opinions, desires, wants, even needs.
  2. Take up your cross - that which afflicts you, burdens you, the
    “thorn in the side” of which Paul spoke.
  3. Follow Christ - Having done both of the above.
What did Christ tell the rich young man who wanted eternal life?
  1. Sell your possessions (Deny yourself)
  2. Give the money to the poor (take up your cross - his love of possessions and money)
  3. Follow Christ.
The spirit of antichrist has appealed to the ego. First to the ego of early heretics, then later to Luther and those who began with him, but then split off even from his movement. Now, the spirit of antichrist has exploited our American fascination with individualism and is leading so many of us to become our own church. Lord, have mercy!

The unity of Christ be with all of us.

Denial of self is obedience to Christ.
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Have you “sold all your possessions and given all the money to the poor”?
You seem to claim that as the formula for salvation by your use of the example of what Jesus told the rich young man.
 
sandusky said:
Belief is a prerequisite to baptism.

Baptism guarantees nothing (cf Mk 16:16).
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But, this opinion is held only by the Sanduskian church of the web!

As baptism, in the New Covenant, replaced circumcision, so it is administered to infants. Jewish circumcision occurred on the eighth day. Did those eight day olds receiving circumcision profess a faith in the God of Israel? Some things a parent does in care of their child.

In biblical times, they baptized whole households, including children. The "Adult"erization of faith is a Protestant issue.

Christ’s peace be with all.
 
brkn1 said:
Have you “sold all your possessions and given all the money to the poor”?
You seem to claim that as the formula for salvation by your use of the example of what Jesus told the rich young man.
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Are you just trying to be argumentative?😦

Isn’t this part of all the parables Jesus spoke in? Not everyone’s issue is being “rich”. You don’t think we should follow what Jesus says? Why would Jesus bother to preach and instruct people on how to live if he didn’t mean it? Why didn’t he just go around telling everyone to be “born again”, if that was all that was important for salvation? If good works naturally flow from someone who has already been saved, why did Jesus need to spend so much time explaining what these were?
 
brkn1 said:
Have you “sold all your possessions and given all the money to the poor”?
You seem to claim that as the formula for salvation by your use of the example of what Jesus told the rich young man.
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No! Christ said that it was what we need to do if we are to follow him. Breaking the attachment to worldly things, if you have such a cross, is one of the requisites. Possessions are indeed one of my crosses. Another cross was disobedience, but the gracious Lord helped me through that one. Now, the others…

Why are you worried about salvation? You have it guaranteed, right? Following Christ is the path to salvation, but not the entire mechanism. As you know, there is more to it. We can argue that, if we must, in other threads.

Christ’s peace be with you.
 
po18guy said:
But, this opinion is held only by the Sanduskian church of the web!

As baptism, in the New Covenant, replaced circumcision, so it is administered to infants. Jewish circumcision occurred on the eighth day. Did those eight day olds receiving circumcision profess a faith in the God of Israel? Some things a parent does in care of their child.

In biblical times, they baptized whole households, including children. The "Adult"erization of faith is a Protestant issue.

Christ’s peace be with all.
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You’re avoiding the questions asked; why is that?

Here they are again regarding Acts 16:31:**What is Paul’s response to the jailer’s question?

Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved…?

Or, Believe in the Lord Jesus, and be baptized, and you will be saved?**What was Paul’s response?

Also, what do you mean baptism replaced circumcision; in what way? Circumcision only affected the men in the OT, correct? What did baptism replace for the women?
 
brkn1 said:
Have you “sold all your possessions and given all the money to the poor”?
You seem to claim that as the formula for salvation by your use of the example of what Jesus told the rich young man.
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This is one of the things I have always noticed about our dear Lord. he never wanted anyone to rest on their laurals so to speak.
The rich man was to sell his possesions, the pharasees were to look at “why” they did what they did, the diciples are to forgive 70 times 7 times, etc.
Jesus always exhorted his followers to do more, because he knows that there is a point at which we will fail. But we must realize it is a failure and understand that, with greater faith we could do more.
To me, this is a great impetous for doing good works, gowing spiritually and prayerfully in Him.
 
brkn1 said:
Have you “sold all your possessions and given all the money to the poor”?
You seem to claim that as the formula for salvation by your use of the example of what Jesus told the rich young man.
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I seperated this from the previous post because I didn’t want to mix the positive with the challenging, particularly since it applies to all of us:

Since Jesus promised that His diciples would do what He did, if they had faith the size of a mustard seed,
How many lame have you cured, How many blind have you given sight to just by laying on of hands. How many trees have you withered with just a curse. How many mountains have you moved…

And Please, no analogies, or symbolic cures. Jesus’ cures were real and so were the Apostles. So only real miraculous cures please.

Anyone who hasn’t done any of these things, must question the strength of their faith. Especially if they are relying on “faith alone” to save them.

Peace
James
 
sandusky said:
No one will truly know until the moment of their death. 🙂
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A very Catholic viewpoint. 👍

We may have complete trust and confidence in God’s promises, but we cannot presume to know if we will choose to remain in his light (though we are assured he will provide the graces to do so).
 
JRKH said:
I seperated this from the previous post because I didn’t want to mix the positive with the challenging, particularly since it applies to all of us:

Since Jesus promised that His diciples would do what He did, if they had faith the size of a mustard seed,
How many lame have you cured, How many blind have you given sight to just by laying on of hands. How many trees have you withered with just a curse. How many mountains have you moved…

And Please, no analogies, or symbolic cures. Jesus’ cures were real and so were the Apostles. So only real miraculous cures please.

Anyone who hasn’t done any of these things, must question the strength of their faith. Especially if they are relying on “faith alone” to save them.
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Huh? :confused:
 
po18guy said:
No! Christ said that it was what we need to do if we are to follow him. Breaking the attachment to worldly things, if you have such a cross, is one of the requisites. Possessions are indeed one of my crosses. Another cross was disobedience, but the gracious Lord helped me through that one. Now, the others…

Why are you worried about salvation? You have it guaranteed, right? Following Christ is the path to salvation, but not the entire mechanism. As you know, there is more to it. We can argue that, if we must, in other threads.

Christ’s peace be with you.
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How did the question get around to me being the one worried about salvation?
I belong to the group who is sure of my salvation, which precludes the need for such worry.
That question must be an example of what they call projection in the science of psychology. You ascribe to another what you are feeling about yourself. I would be worried too, if I were not sure of my salvation.
 
JRKH said:
I seperated this from the previous post because I didn’t want to mix the positive with the challenging, particularly since it applies to all of us:

Since Jesus promised that His diciples would do what He did, if they had faith the size of a mustard seed,
How many lame have you cured, How many blind have you given sight to just by laying on of hands. How many trees have you withered with just a curse. How many mountains have you moved…

And Please, no analogies, or symbolic cures. Jesus’ cures were real and so were the Apostles. So only real miraculous cures please.

Anyone who hasn’t done any of these things, must question the strength of their faith. Especially if they are relying on “faith alone” to save them.

Peace
James
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By that standard, you would not have a chance at salvation either, unless you also perform such miracles. It is faith alone that saves, according to the bible; but you seem to disqualify everyone but the apostles and a few early saints with your understanding of what Jesus was saying.

If it were in God’s Will, the mustard seed of faith would allow one to do miracles as Jesus said.
 
Back on page 10, post no. 149, I replied to guanophore with the following, which I don’t think he/she ever responded to. I invite him/her to do so now, or anyone else who can:
Phil12123 said:
What I think you mean is you have to work hard not to sin, because in your thinking, if you sin (and especially if it’s mortal sin), you lose your “salvation” and are on your way to hell if you don’t get to the priest in time to confess and get absolution. Since you have no security, least of which “eternal security,” you are “in” a state of “grace” or “out” of it, depending on your sinning and confessing. In one minute, out the next. Back in, back out. So you can be “saved” and lost again and saved again, millions of times before you ever die and face the judgment. Then it is only your hope that the LAST state, at death, is IN and not OUT. And you think that is scriptural and the truth???

And to top it all off, you think your works will keep you IN or lessen your chances of being OUT at death.
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I am trying to understand your concept of “eternal life” or “everlasting life,” what Scripture says is the free gift of God. You say you get it at baptism, but your actions thereafter determine if you have it when you die. If your possession of it is so tenuous and temporary, how can it possibly be called “eternal” or “everlasting”? If you ever HAVE everlasting life, how can it not last forever? And don’t tell me it can be in hell, because that is not the gift of God, it is the wages of sin. It is not just eternal existence. It is eternal LIFE, not DEATH. And it is ETERNAL and EVERLASTING.
 
distracted said:
Either that or the person is so committed to Protestantism he/she just can’t bring self to believe otherwise… either way, objectively speaking, it is not right and if one continues in error without concern for the truth, well, the truth has a way of biting you in … well, you know… 😃

What do you mean by the third sin against the Holy spirit? What are the 1st & 2nd??
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There are six.
  1. Despair of salvation
  2. Presumption of God’s mercy
 
Phil12123 said:
Back on page 10, post no. 149, I replied to guanophore with the following, which I don’t think he/she ever responded to. I invite him/her to do so now, or anyone else who can:

I am trying to understand your concept of “eternal life” or “everlasting life,” what Scripture says is the free gift of God. You say you get it at baptism, but your actions thereafter determine if you have it when you die. If your possession of it is so tenuous and temporary, how can it possibly be called “eternal” or “everlasting”? If you ever HAVE everlasting life, how can it not last forever? And don’t tell me it can be in hell, because that is not the gift of God, it is the wages of sin. It is not just eternal existence. It is eternal LIFE, not DEATH. And it is ETERNAL and EVERLASTING.
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Why do you insist on harping on your unanswered questions, when you don’t answer other people’s questions? Are you here to “enlighten” us or to troll and knock some heads?

If you are so saved, and all you have to do to be saved is call Jesus your lord and savior, why is it in the bible that God will be our judge? Please let me know if you need references? What would God need to judge if everyone knew they were going to heaven as assuredly as you do?

And as previously posted, if someone who is saved can be endowed with the title “never saved to begin with” at some point after, then doesn’t it seem that what really determines if they are saved, is the works they do (or don’t do) after? I think it is possible for someone to feel like they HAVE to go around doing good (or more honorably 👍 not messing it up by doing something bad) in order to ensure they don’t get slapped with “never saved to begin with”.
 
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VociMike:
A very Catholic viewpoint.
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I anticipated that response, and am still disheartened by it. 😦
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VociMike:
We may have complete trust and confidence in God’s promises, but we cannot presume to know if we will choose to remain in his light (though we are assured he will provide the graces to do so).
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IMHO, your statement epitomizes the works/righteousness theological construct—it’s all about what you do. 😦

Scripture strongly encourages the believer to trust in God, and to anticipate his entrance into the Kingdom with great confidence, and joy, and to live his life with that attitude (Rom 8:12-17; 1 Pet 1:3-9 etc.).

Because God encourages the believer to obtain a confident attitude with respect to his salvation, the real sin of presumption, IMHO, lies with those who teach that a confident attitude is sin.
 
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