Thousands protest Wisconsin anti-union bill

[pnewton]

Thus it becomes clear that liberals aren’t the only cafeteria Catholics.

I do not not think that to be a fair statement. I have asked multiple times where the Church has supported as morally good the right for public employees to collective bargaining. Yes, there should be the right for workers to organize in unions, or not, if they choose. But the exact balance between workers and management is not a matter of Church doctrine. It is Church doctrine that workers are worthy of a living wage and they have the right to organize. There is no need to question another’s orthodoxy because they do not add to this other rights that you think vital.

 

[JackQ]

I do not not think that to be a fair statement. I have asked multiple times where the Church has supported as morally good the right for public employees to collective bargaining. Yes, there should be the right for workers to organize in unions, or not, if they choose. But the exact balance between workers and management is not a matter of Church doctrine. It is Church doctrine that workers are worthy of a living wage and they have the right to organize. There is no need to question another’s orthodoxy because they do not add to this other rights that you think vital.

Well, the way you phrase your question indicates how you want the answer to come out. It is clear that the Church supports labor organizing and collective bargaining, so you want to know if the Church supports that for public employees. This is like Judge Roy Bean saying that he couldn’t find any laws against killing Chinamen. And worker’s rights aren’t just something I think vital. The Church has been clear about this since Rerum Novarum.

 

[pnewton]

This is like Judge Roy Bean saying that he couldn’t find any laws against killing Chinamen. And worker’s rights aren’t just something I think vital. The Church has been clear about this since Rerum Novarum.

No. Race is not a valid comparison. Forty percent of the teachers called in sick and forced the cancellation of classes. If the same forty percent of prison workers called in sick, how many Wisconson union members would be willing to cancel prison? Perhaps they would want to house them in their homes? Some segments simply can not have the same rights as others. Closing the schools was a terrible move. Do we want to also close the fire departments? Police service?

Here is a letter from a Wisconsin bishop. Note that there is room for judgement. I understand the Church’s position on unions, but we must understand that the Church teaches partnership between union and management and is not pro-union at all times in all situations. It is darn certain that disagreeing on the limits of unions is not “cafeteria Catholicism”.

jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/116450358.html

I do not think the governor here is on the level, but the teachers for sure gave up the moral high ground with that sick-in stunt.

 

[estesbob]

Or why the silent majority might become less silent and sometime in the future be voting them out again.

Fine That’s the way our democracy works. However the Democrat senators are trying to overturn the results of the election by running away and hiding rather than let the democratic process take its course

 

[estesbob]

The most bizarre things I’ve seen in these protests is people comparing themselves to the Egyptians. There we had people protesting against a brutal dictatorship, here we have people making upwards to 100 thousand dollars a year complaining because they had been asked to pay part of their own health care costs.

 

[estesbob]

The governor and the union leaders should call each others’ bluff. Today is Sunday. Agree to meet Monday and agree to to the budget cuts. If this is indeed about money or the lack thereof, then collective bargaining should not be in the agreement. The cuts should be in it. Whichever side refuses to show up will then have tipped their hand about the real issue: absolute power to force the other side to become a quasi-slave (be it public workers and cronyism/abuse or a government enslaved to unreasonable worker demands).

All other arguments are a sideshow. The fact that the governor won’t call this meeting is telling. It isn’t really about the budget, so he should quit being deceptive. If the unions are lying about accepting the cuts, a meeting would instantly reveal their dishonesty too.

The balance between unions and employers has always been ugly. If one side begins to dominate, corruption and evil spread like wildfire (bribes, using bats on workers, etc). Unions and their progressive friends have had the upper hand for a while, yet this is one of those cases where we should not throw out the baby with the bath water. Unions definitely have their place, in and out of government, but they must be tempered just as they temper employers. Destroying their ability to bargain is not necessary when budget constraints are required. The meeting I proposed would work.

The governor has already compromised on collective bargaining. Collective bargaining will remain in effect for salaries but not for benefits.

 

[estesbob]

Perhaps the most upsetting aspect of the whole story is something that goes unreported. The vast majority of these “teachers” do not deserve a job, let alone compensation that bilks the Wisconsin taxpayers of $100,000 annually. The public schools are an utter disaster nation wide. I inherit the mess every year, and instead of teaching a college course in history (as I am officially paid to do), I find myself trying to help my students write a complete sentence. Yes that is right, I am forced to spend my time teaching kids things I learned in grade school. I am contemplating giving up, after all a Ph.D can only expect to earn about $50,000 - $60,000 in most of the country - and I am tired of having to do other peoples jobs for them.

I inherit the mess also. I have people applying for jobs who can’t string together coherent sentences but have very high self-esteem-so high in fact that they resent being told what to do.

 

[estesbob]

Thus it becomes clear that liberals aren’t the only cafeteria Catholics.

Can you direct us to Church teaching that requires a Catholic to support any demand a union makes?

 

[JackQ]

No. Race is not a valid comparison. Forty percent of the teachers called in sick and forced the cancellation of classes. If the same forty percent of prison workers called in sick, how many Wisconson union members would be willing to cancel prison? Perhaps they would want to house them in their homes? Some segments simply can not have the same rights as others. Closing the schools was a terrible move. Do we want to also close the fire departments? Police service?

Here is a letter from a Wisconsin bishop. Note that there is room for judgement. I understand the Church’s position on unions, but we must understand that the Church teaches partnership between union and management and is not pro-union at all times in all situations. It is darn certain that disagreeing on the limits of unions is not “cafeteria Catholicism”.

jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/116450358.html

I do not think the governor here is on the level, but the teachers for sure gave up the moral high ground with that sick-in stunt.

The comparison was apt with regard to the right to organize, in that you, like Judge Roy Bean, were drawing artificially fine distinctions. Raising the question of whether the teachers’ tactic was appropriate is changing the substance of the debate.

 

[estesbob]

Well, the way you phrase your question indicates how you want the answer to come out. It is clear that the Church supports labor organizing and collective bargaining, so you want to know if the Church supports that for public employees. This is like Judge Roy Bean saying that he couldn’t find any laws against killing Chinamen. And worker’s rights aren’t just something I think vital. The Church has been clear about this since Rerum Novarum.

There are no unions in the Vatican. The employees of the diocese of Madison do not belong to a union. Should Catholics be protesting the Church demanding that the employees of the Church be allowed collective-bargaining rights and demanding that employees of the Catholic Church not be required to pay any of their health insurance costs or make any contributions to their pension plan?

 

[pnewton]

The comparison was apt with regard to the right to organize, in that you, like Judge Roy Bean, were drawing artificially fine distinctions. Raising the question of whether the teachers’ tactic was appropriate is changing the substance of the debate.

Interjecting race was changing the substance of the debate. But hey, it’s not like that’s not played all the time, even when it is off topic. There is nothing artificial about the difference between public employees and private. Some sectors of work are critical. Shut down the airlines or the auto industry, it is inconvenient. Shut down the police or fire, people die. Nothing artificial about that.

 

[iamrefreshed]

If collective bargaining is what kept the gravy train fueled then I certainly hope it is eliminated.

 

[Nec5]

The governor has already compromised on collective bargaining. Collective bargaining will remain in effect for salaries but not for benefits.

A nice dodge, but no dice. That’s not a compromise. You either have a right to bargain for your pay (which sadly includes health benefits and other benefits) or you don’t. I would never have included benefits at all many moons ago when this was all set up. Instead, there would be higher pay. Today, benefits are all included as part of compensation, so the governor is being dishonest in his dealings. By cutting out collective bargaining for benefits, he is indeed union busting and attacking compensation.

To those complaining about teachers, I would recommend that each of you try teaching for a year. You’ll find that the teachers have little authority to help students, and their days are spent filling out forms and assessing data based on racial backgrounds in addition to grading homework that kids may or may not complete. This is a result of parents refusing to raise their kids and the growing moral abyss the nation finds itself in (i.e.the distorted concept of separation of church and state is one example that springs to mind). Blaming the teachers is a scape goat. You could magically fire every worthless teacher, and the problem would barely be affected.

 

[iamrefreshed]

A nice dodge, but no dice. That’s not a compromise. You either have a right to bargain for your pay (which sadly includes health benefits and other benefits) or you don’t. I would never have included benefits at all many moons ago when this was all set up. Instead, there would be higher pay. Today, benefits are all included as part of compensation, so the governor is being dishonest in his dealings. By cutting out collective bargaining for benefits, he is indeed union busting and attacking compensation.

To those complaining about teachers, I would recommend that each of you try teaching for a year. You’ll find that the teachers have little authority to help students, and their days are spent filling out forms and assessing data based on racial backgrounds in addition to grading homework that kids may or may not complete. This is a result of parents refusing to raise their kids and the growing moral abyss the nation finds itself in (i.e.the distorted concept of separation of church and state is one example that springs to mind). Blaming the teachers is a scape goat. You could magically fire every worthless teacher, and the problem would barely be affected.

I don’t think anyone here is complaining about teachers. However, many are complaining about entitlement.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

To those complaining about teachers, I would recommend that each of you try teaching for a year.

Heck, I’d just give them a month before they run out of the classrooms screaming for Mama.

You’ll find that the teachers have little authority to help students, and their days are spent filling out forms and assessing data based on racial backgrounds in addition to grading homework that kids may or may not complete. This is a result of parents refusing to raise their kids and the growing moral abyss the nation finds itself in (i.e.the distorted concept of separation of church and state is one example that springs to mind). Blaming the teachers is a scape goat. You could magically fire every worthless teacher, and the problem would barely be affected.

Amen. Garbage in, garbage out. Many parents do squat about preparing their kids for school, about helping them with their homework, about teaching them so that they aren’t just passive lunks when they get to class. Teachers can’t perform miracles, and shouldn’t have to.

My wife, who taught in the NYC schools until her retirement had to work until about 8 or 9 to get all her paperwork done and to prepare for the next day’s classes. Meanwhile bunches of couch potatoes grumble about why their kids aren’t learning the way they should.

 

[kwitz]

To those complaining about teachers, I would recommend that each of you try teaching for a year. You’ll find that the teachers have little authority to help students, and their days are spent filling out forms and assessing data based on racial backgrounds in addition to grading homework that kids may or may not complete. This is a result of parents refusing to raise their kids and the growing moral abyss the nation finds itself in (i.e.the distorted concept of separation of church and state is one example that springs to mind). Blaming the teachers is a scape goat. You could magically fire every worthless teacher, and the problem would barely be affected.

I’ve taught for 24 years in a Catholic high school so I feel I can speak a bit about teaching. In the course of those years, we’ve hired a number of (about 10) retired public school teachers who want to earn some money. Because of their retirement benefits, they can work for us but not in any other Missouri public school. All of them have been some of the worst, laziest teachers I’ve ever worked with. Now, I fully admit that I don’t have a sample size worth any sort of statistical analysis and those teachers who retire early and go to work at a Catholic school may or may not represent in any way the population of public school teachers but…

 

[bbarrick8383]

A nice dodge, but no dice. That’s not a compromise. You either have a right to bargain for your pay (which sadly includes health benefits and other benefits) or you don’t. I would never have included benefits at all many moons ago when this was all set up. Instead, there would be higher pay. Today, benefits are all included as part of compensation, so the governor is being dishonest in his dealings. By cutting out collective bargaining for benefits, he is indeed union busting and attacking compensation.

To those complaining about teachers, I would recommend that each of you try teaching for a year. You’ll find that the teachers have little authority to help students, and their days are spent filling out forms and assessing data based on racial backgrounds in addition to grading homework that kids may or may not complete. This is a result of parents refusing to raise their kids and the growing moral abyss the nation finds itself in (i.e.the distorted concept of separation of church and state is one example that springs to mind). Blaming the teachers is a scape goat. You could magically fire every worthless teacher, and the problem would barely be affected.

It sounds like to me, for many areas of the public and private sector that it’s not so much the pay the teachers are receiving them that is hurting, or going to hurt in the future. But the retirement they will be paying out to them plus trying to pay those who fill the spots of the retired.

I’m thinking they are trying to separate the two for a reason.

I know around here we have Class B schools with principles and superintendents making 6 figures. It’s got to stop soon, it’s just not sustainable.

 

[estesbob]

A nice dodge, but no dice. That’s not a compromise. You either have a right to bargain for your pay (which sadly includes health benefits and other benefits) or you don’t. I would never have included benefits at all many moons ago when this was all set up. Instead, there would be higher pay. Today, benefits are all included as part of compensation, so the governor is being dishonest in his dealings. By cutting out collective bargaining for benefits, he is indeed union busting and attacking compensation.

To those complaining about teachers, I would recommend that each of you try teaching for a year. You’ll find that the teachers have little authority to help students, and their days are spent filling out forms and assessing data based on racial backgrounds in addition to grading homework that kids may or may not complete. This is a result of parents refusing to raise their kids and the growing moral abyss the nation finds itself in (i.e.the distorted concept of separation of church and state is one example that springs to mind). Blaming the teachers is a scape goat. You could magically fire every worthless teacher, and the problem would barely be affected.

Not a dodge at all- Its the Truth. He is removing collective bargaining for benefits but NOT for wages. How supporting collective bargaing is “union busting” is beyoind me.

It is true that teachers have little time for students when they are calling in sick when they are not, getting bogus excuse notes from doctors who also happen to be teachers and spending their days protesting the fact that the government is asking them to to pay a pittance on their healthcare and pensions.

Let’s be honest here-concern for students is far down the list of concerns for teachers unios:

*"when students start paying dues I’ll be as interested in them as my teachers.” *

Al Shenker of the A.F.T

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

All of them have been some of the worst, laziest teachers I’ve ever worked with. Now, I fully admit that I don’t have a sample size worth any sort of statistical analysis and those teachers who retire early and go to work at a Catholic school may or may not represent in any way the population of public school teachers but…

So you want to interpolate 10 bad - according to you, but maybe not to the principals who hired them - teachers against all the teachers in the public schools, but then admit that yours is only an anecdote statistically invalid.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

It is true that teachers have little time for students when they are calling in sick when they are not, getting bogus excuse notes from doctors who also happen to be teachers and spending their days protesting the fact that the government is asking them to to pay a pittance on their healthcare and pensions.

So that’s what it is about all teachers? I ought to complain to my wife about how lazy she was when she worked until only 9 p.m. on weekdays, about how she often had to provide supplies to poor children out of her own pocket (not unique to her - a lot of techers did the same), how she took sick days only when what she had could have been spread to her pupils.

You know it all, Bob.