TLALOC - pagan Aztec God

[ahimsaman72]

GAssisi:

I read this post and am amused, but mostly puzzled.

Ahimsaman made a good point about not being threatened by the name of a pagan god that doesn’t exist. I have a great interest in mythology and I looked at Tlaloc’s name and pictured nothing more than a comic-book character.

I think we have to be honest with ourselves. The very great majority of people out there don’t even know about the pantheon of meso-American deities. Ignorance is bliss sometimes. I really don’t think our Tlaloc here would sacrifice children.

God bless,
Greg

Exactly…

Do we believe the Egyptian god Amon-Ra is reincarnated and is going to pounce on us?!? I seem to remember a verse that Jesus spoke…“Greater is he that is in me than he that is in the world.”
Let’s get real here.

Peace…

 

[ahimsaman72]

john doran:

look, who cares what his call-name is, really? does the call-name make the man (or the woman)? perhaps it will come to light one day that there was a mithritic death-cult whose primary deity was a demon called “john doran”, and what then? and what about the NHL player whose last name is “satan”? and what if your name happens to be “ted bundy”? what exactly does that allow anyone reasonably to conclude about the individual(s) so named?

“Monday evening there will be a special presentation of Dateline NBC where we will discuss ‘Deathcult in the Heartland’. This is the story of a group of wandering young adults who began following a prophet named JohnDoran who is the self-proclaimed reincarnation of the ancient Egyptian god of the Nile River.”

Sorry…just had to do that. It was in my head and I had to let it out. No offense John . I’m with ya

Peace…

 

[Tlaloc]

Kevin Walker:

Oh really? And is that why the children (and adults) cried their eyes out before they were drowned to the pagan God TLALOC, he who urinated from his mouth? Exactly how willing were they Tlaloc?

No idea where you are getting that info.

“The acquiescence of the sacrificed victims to their fate, which seems so strange to us, is also explainable in terms of their religious ideology. The fate of a man after death depended not on how he lived but on how he died. Thus, only sacrificial victims and battle casualties could go to a heaven associated with the sun and later be reborn as hummingbirds and butterflies (13, book 3, p. 47, book 6, pp. 38, 74). The ability of religious fervor for salvation to motivate willing martyrs is also not unknown in our cultural history.”
latinamericanstudies.org/aztecs/montellano.htm

 

[Tlaloc]

TheGarg:

It seems to me that this “Tlaloc” demon, is a pretty horrible guy. Well why not have a screen name like “JefferyDahmer” or “TedBundy”…

Dahlmer and Bundy were real people. Tlaloc was part of a societies belief structure. The fact that many can’t begin to comprehend that belief structure is a good indicator that people aren’t studying enough anthro.

Evil as they[Dahmner,Bundy] were, they weren’t evil as the Idea behind “Tlaloc”. Why would anyone want to be associated with or celabrate such Ideals?

It’s easy for us to sit here and be judgemental towards another culture, but when we examine our own history our smugness gets a little deflated. The aztec sense of what war was for would not have led to things like the two world wars or the development of chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons. And yet you don’t bat an eye at associating yourself with our culture, right?

Evil is always much more apparent in the other guy, huh?

Just curious…

A trait I highly recommend.

 

[Tlaloc]

john doran:

look, who cares what his call-name is, really?

Yeah, kind of what I thought…

and even if you knew that he chose “tlaloc” because he worships that particular deity/demon, what then?

Just to be crystal clear on this matter I don’t subscribe to Aztec beliefs. I find them interesting (as with most religions) and I think there is a good object lesson to be learned about not judging other cultures.

and, quite frankly, i find this thread dismaying.

I lean toward amusement myself.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

I am wondering what made this worthy of discussion? If Tlaloc is that offensive, put him on your ignore list. problem solved. If his posts are that patently offensive, report him. But to start a thread so he can sing and dance in the spotlight isn’t helping the problem (if there indeed is one). Had you not done research, I am sure that 99% of the people here would have not clue what Tlaloc means.

 

[oat_soda]

I think there is a good object lesson to be learned about not judging other cultures.

typical secular-relativistic liberal insanity. this logic would also condone the actions of hitler and stalin. i think most would agree the aztecs and mayans, as well as pagan europe, were completely barbaric cultures which were transformed for the better by christianity. look at how western culture dominates the rest of the world. it’s because it is the best, or at least use to be.

any culture which doesn’t recognize natural law and protect the dignity of human life is wrong just like any government or individual is wrong when they murder innocent life.

I am sure that 99% of the people here would have not clue what Tlaloc means

i’m glad someone started this thread percisely for this reason. i might not have ever known what tlaloc was.

 

[Kevin_Walker]

Tlaloc:

No idea where you are getting that info.

“The acquiescence of the sacrificed victims to their fate, which seems so strange to us, is also explainable in terms of their religious ideology. The fate of a man after death depended not on how he lived but on how he died. Thus, only sacrificial victims and battle casualties could go to a heaven associated with the sun and later be reborn as hummingbirds and butterflies (13, book 3, p. 47, book 6, pp. 38, 74). The ability of religious fervor for salvation to motivate willing martyrs is also not unknown in our cultural history.”
latinamericanstudies.org/aztecs/montellano.htm

Try reading this:

homestead.com/summoningspirit/AZTEC.html

 

[Exporter]

john doran,
This from the first post on this thread.“The pagan Aztec God Tlaloc was also evil for causing confusion in the minds of the Aztecs by his constant use of cant and sophistry in the discourse of men. “He who urinates” Tlaloc was constantly confusing digressions for correlations and used prolix to confound debate on serious issues which, along with child sacrifice and the cause of arthritis,dropsy, and heterophobia, made Tlaloc the most despised of the Aztec Gods.”

It was not only the posts on this thread that posters did not like, it has been the posts on other threads that the Catholics didn’t like. These were especially the ones condoning Abortion and teen-aged sexual relations. It seems you approve of someone coming here and supporting these acts, I don’t.

I can tell you that FOXNEWS reciently has exposed the Canadian Media as being almost as Left Wing as France, of being owtwardly opposed to the U.S.A. and in favor of Homosexuals marrying. Maybe you have been influenced by them. I hope you come back into the Catholic Camp.:yup:

 

[Kevin_Walker]

Tlaloc:

Yeah, kind of what I thought…

Just to be crystal clear on this matter I don’t subscribe to Aztec beliefs. I find them interesting (as with most religions) and I think there is a good object lesson to be learned about not judging other cultures.

I lean toward amusement myself.

If you don’t subscribe to Aztec beliefs, just what motivated you to adopt the name Tlaloc, a pagan God who demanded screaming & crying children be drowned for his appeasement? Why this connection to dying CHILDREN? Why not just take an equally offensive name like Gog or MaGog or Baal? Nothing amusing about it.

 

[Exporter]

This came fromanother thread.
" Tlaloc http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/statusicon_cad/user_offline.gif
Senior Member
Join Date: December 23, 2004
Posts: 499

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon1.gif Re: Homosexuality
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisa N
*OK Tlaloc please enlighten us on all of the benefits of sodomy ASIDE from some sort of sexual gratification. *

It can be part of an intimate loving relationship. Just like any other form of sex."

---

Here it is . Tlaloc says sodomy can be part of a loving relationship. JD, what do you say?

 

[Kevin_Walker]

ahimsaman72:

According to one of the links you cite below, he was pre-Aztec. And, the description (he who urinates) in not to be found either. Neither could I find any reference to pedophiles. I attempted to access the wikipedia link, but could not. I wouldn’t trust wikipedia anyway, as it allows anyone to write an article for them.

Where you got this information, I don’t know. It’s not to be found on the sites you show here. But, I would like to see any websites that speak of it. Neither of the bottom two links you cite speak of the things you are claiming. There needs to be sources for your claims.

What the sites do speak of is that fact that Tlaloc was a “rain god”. He was thought to cause floods or drought - plenty or ruin. The description given for his name is “one who sprouts”. And, given the fact that he was a rain god and had a companion which was the god of lakes, it’s not a far-fetched idea that people would sacrifice by drowning.

If in the pre-Aztec mind, Tlaloc could be appeased and bring about fruitful crops, then to offer children to him by submerging them in water to become one with him is not an insane thing. I’m not saying I agree with the practice, but you can understand the rationale.

It seems to me that this thread was not a sincere one, but one intent on defamation and a personal attack on Tlaloc. I say that based on the lack of evidence for your claims and clear bias in your presentation. However, I will assume good intentions.

Peace…

Hi,

Because I found dozens of sites describing the evil deity TLALOC, I didn’t think it practical to list each and every one.

But here’s one which might answer some of your questions:

homestead.com/summoningspirit/AZTEC.html

scroll down to: AH HOYA “…called (he who urinates) as another name for the Rain god Tlaloc …”.

And as for some sites giving TLALOC as being pre-Aztec, that just goes to show how inconsistant and erroneous the internet can be for scholarly research, but it’s convenient for any talk forum. Pax

 

[Kevin_Walker]

Exporter:

This came fromanother thread.
" Tlaloc http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/statusicon_cad/user_offline.gif vbmenu_register(“postmenu_454877”, true);
Senior Member
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http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon1.gif Re: Homosexuality
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisa N
*OK Tlaloc please enlighten us on all of the benefits of sodomy ASIDE from some sort of sexual gratification. *

It can be part of an intimate loving relationship. Just like any other form of sex.

Here it is . Tlaloc says sodomy can be part of a loving relationship. JD, what do you say?

Tlaloc is just being true to his name.

 

[Psalm89]

I think TLALOC selected his name so that threads like this could take place and attention would be focused on him.

He could have picked “Mr. Pagan” or other such things, but it wouldn’t sound nearly as cool as a mythical, pagan Aztec diety.

He already said he didn’t pick Tlaloc because he worships him, just because it sounds cool.

Acutally it would make a great name for a D&D character.

 

[JCPhoenix]

Just a couple of things;

I spent a semester in Mexico in college and I had a friend there named Tloloc. He was not a pagan, but a good Catholic man, and a GREAT teacher. I didn’t have him as a teacher myself, but he did assist me in a couple of projects while I was there. Believe it or not, it was somewhat of a common name in the area where I lived.

Mexicans have a very nationalistic perspective, and even in the face of Catholicism and their strong faith and practices, they still maintain a connection to their history through various names. I believe for some it reminds them from where they had come, and for others, just like in our families, names are passed down. Please keep that in mind.

Secondly, someone referenced the “Flowery Death”. This was done in honor of Huitzilopotchtli, the god of War. They cut out the hearts of the sacrificial victims and fed them to a statue of the God. The statue was hollow in order to contain all the hearts. Yes, this was horrible.

Huitzilopotchtli was the most feared and hated god for the Aztec people because he demanded the bloodiest sacrifices. Tloloc was somewhat benign in comparison because he was the god of rain, and for a good portion of the year they don’t recieve a lot of rain. Tenochtitlan (the Aztec capital, now Mexico City) is a somewhat arid region, but they do have a rainy season from May through September or October. Tloloc did demand blood sacrifice, just not to the degree of the war god.

They had several others as well. Quetzalcoatl was the most beloved, and they believed that he had returned when Corte’s arrived on his horse.

There was another God who attacked his sister (I think) and cut her to pieces. This one is portrayed in the Museo Nacional Antropological in Mexico City. (Very cool place if you ever get a chance to go).

Just my two cents. I haven’t studied this stuff for awhile so ther’s more but I don’t remember all the details. Since I"m at work I can’t grab my references either.

Just because someone is choosing a word out of history doesn’t make it offensive. Personally, the way the “missionaries” “converted” people in Mexico was pretty horrific as well and there was a great deal of burning heretics at stakes. I believe this was governmental but it is commonly attributed to the Catholics. We know better…personally I think I’d rather have my heart cut out than burn alive.

A lot of what happened there we’ll never really know or understand, but we can look back on these cultures and realize that maybe our world, with all it’s gore and politics might not be so bad.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

Psalm89:

I think TLALOC selected his name so that threads like this could take place and attention would be focused on him.

He could have picked “Mr. Pagan” or other such things, but it wouldn’t sound nearly as cool as a mythical, pagan Aztec diety.

He already said he didn’t pick Tlaloc because he worships him, just because it sounds cool.

Acutally it would make a great name for a D&D character.

You couldn’t tell that he doesn’t worship the ideology by his posts.God Bless

 

[john_doran]

Exporter:

It was not only the posts on this thread that posters did not like, it has been the posts on other threads that the Catholics didn’t like. These were especially the ones condoning Abortion and teen-aged sexual relations. It seems you approve of someone coming here and supporting these acts, I don’t.

i approve of open discussion of peoples’ beliefs on this forum; if this is a forum only for believing catholics to discuss those beliefs, then so be it. but it isn’t.

and, by the way, you aren’t ***required ***to “approve” of anyone supporting those acts any more than you are “required” to approve of people supporting the abandonment of belief in things like the immaculate conception or the humanity of christ or the infallibility of the pope or the importance of catholic tradition - you are merely required to meet their support for those beliefs with your own objections thereto. courteously, and in a catholic christian manner.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

JCPhoenix:

Just a couple of things;

I spent a semester in Mexico in college and I had a friend there named Tloloc. He was not a pagan, but a good Catholic man, and a GREAT teacher. I didn’t have him as a teacher myself, but he did assist me in a couple of projects while I was there. Believe it or not, it was somewhat of a common name in the area where I lived.

Mexicans have a very nationalistic perspective, and even in the face of Catholicism and their strong faith and practices, they still maintain a connection to their history through various names. I believe for some it reminds them from where they had come, and for others, just like in our families, names are passed down. Please keep that in mind.

Secondly, someone referenced the “Flowery Death”. This was done in honor of Huitzilopotchtli, the god of War. They cut out the hearts of the sacrificial victims and fed them to a statue of the God. The statue was hollow in order to contain all the hearts. Yes, this was horrible.

Huitzilopotchtli was the most feared and hated god for the Aztec people because he demanded the bloodiest sacrifices. Tloloc was somewhat benign in comparison because he was the god of rain, and for a good portion of the year they don’t recieve a lot of rain. Tenochtitlan (the Aztec capital, now Mexico City) is a somewhat arid region, but they do have a rainy season from May through September or October. Tloloc did demand blood sacrifice, just not to the degree of the war god.

They had several others as well. Quetzalcoatl was the most beloved, and they believed that he had returned when Corte’s arrived on his horse.

There was another God who attacked his sister (I think) and cut her to pieces. This one is portrayed in the Museo Nacional Antropological in Mexico City. (Very cool place if you ever get a chance to go).

Just my two cents. I haven’t studied this stuff for awhile so ther’s more but I don’t remember all the details. Since I"m at work I can’t grab my references either.

Just because someone is choosing a word out of history doesn’t make it offensive. Personally, the way the “missionaries” “converted” people in Mexico was pretty horrific as well and there was a great deal of burning heretics at stakes. I believe this was governmental but it is commonly attributed to the Catholics. We know better…personally I think I’d rather have my heart cut out than burn alive.

A lot of what happened there we’ll never really know or understand, but we can look back on these cultures and realize that maybe our world, with all it’s gore and politics might not be so bad.

The name coupled with the posts paint a very unsettling picture.The name itself is unsettling to me, if my family generations back worshiped the devil, I would hope they wouldn’t name me satan God Bless

 

[Kevin_Walker]

Digitonomy:

This is a weak argument. Sorrow and emotionality does not preclude willingness. We often see willing participants cry when they leave for another job, graduate or move to a new school, go off to war, get married, etc.

Not that sacrificing thousands of people isn’t an abomination, but I’m just sayin…

I think the operant term here is ‘willing’, nothing was written about Aztec children bawling their eyes out knowing they were to be sacrificed to TLALOC as ‘willing’; my guess is that they were traumatized and evil TLALOC enjoyed the suffering of children; similar to the writings found in the Marque de Sade.

 

[john_doran]

Exporter:

This came fromanother thread.
" Tlaloc http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/statusicon_cad/user_offline.gif
Senior Member
Join Date: December 23, 2004
Posts: 499

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon1.gif Re: Homosexuality
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisa N
*OK Tlaloc please enlighten us on all of the benefits of sodomy ASIDE from some sort of sexual gratification. *

It can be part of an intimate loving relationship. Just like any other form of sex."

---

Here it is . Tlaloc says sodomy can be part of a loving relationship. JD, what do you say?

i would say that i think he is mistaken; i would say that his definition of “love” is anemic.

what i *wouldn’t *say is that he must be morally bankrupt and depraved for choosing an internet handle like “tlaloc”, or that he should be taken to task for it.