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Tlaloc
Guest
But is the witch hunted or hunting?
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wabrams
Guest
Hey man, I don’t agree with your opinions about abortion or the gay lifestyle, but that doesn’t mean I’m going to beat you up about it on a thread designed to get other posters to trash you. The whole idea behind this thread has been very un-Christian. If I don’t like your viewpoints, I’ll debate you in the threads they’re presented in. If I don’t like your screen name, I’ll send you a private message and ask you about it, but I don’t condone starting a thread to rip a poster apart.
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Tlaloc
Guest
Kevin Walker:
If I wanted to offend you I would have simply chosen a name that was obviously offensive. Actually if I wanted to offend you I wouldn’t have bothered showing up at all. I had other motivations. If you happen to get offended along the way…well… collatoral damage. And if your offence becomes the motivation for you to start obsessing on me…well… it’ll be good for a laugh.
Or it could be exactly what I said it is. I have no reason to lie to you Kevin, believe me you aren’t important enough to me for me to have any motivation to try and decieve you.
If I wanted to offend you I would have simply chosen a name that was obviously offensive. Actually if I wanted to offend you I wouldn’t have bothered showing up at all. I had other motivations. If you happen to get offended along the way…well… collatoral damage. And if your offence becomes the motivation for you to start obsessing on me…well… it’ll be good for a laugh.
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JCPhoenix
Guest
I really pray that you get some insight if you ever go into a culture you misunderstand as much as this one.The name coupled with the posts paint a very unsettling picture.The name itself is unsettling to me, if my family generations back worshiped the devil, I would hope they wouldn’t name me satanGod Bless
The conquistadores assumed as you did without even trying to understand what their rituals meant. They did not try to learn or see the new world from anything but their own perspective.
Some missionaries, however, were intelligent and understood that they were bringing in this very peaceful religion with which the people could not identify. People “coverted” but had no idea what that meant. They didn’t even understand the language but were put to death for not being true converts!
So some missionaries got smart. They showed the people that instead of having a god they had to die for, rather, we have a God that DIED FOR THEM instead!
In order to help them identify with this new God, they portrayed him in his very bloody, beaten state. All over Mexico, churches are filled with glass boxes containing the very gory Jesus Christ, ostensibly the depiction of him after being taken down from the cross and before he was wrapped for burial.
On the cross, he is not our clean American Christ, but he is the gory mess he really must have been (not as bad as the “Passion”, though).
This was one of the ways converts were gained.
Maybe you should open your heart a little and try to see people in the past as more than demon worshippers…they were God’s children, too, and just because they invented horrible, terrible gods does not mean they were worshipping demons.
Remember, this was the new world…they knew nothing of Yaweh, nothing of Jesus until someone was able to make that bridge that fostered understanding between such drastically different cultures.
They did not worsip demons, but terrible false idols of their own making. Maybe a demon instituted the suggestions and the follow through, but people did worship what they thought was God with far greater devotion than most of the luke-warm “believers” of the present age.
We can learn from them and from the conversions they did have and how they occurred.
Mercy, my friend. I challenge you to keep mercy as a lenten word when tempted to condemn something so thoroughly that you haven’t taken time to understand.
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Kevin_Walker
Guest
You don’t need to explain to me in such great length, my answer was purely rhetorical.
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Scott_Lafrance
Guest
Since the Moderators don’t seem to have a great deal of angst about the silly name, and this thread is getting on the yucky side of uncharitable, I’d recommmend everyone just let this thread die before the Moderators do it for you, and possibly throw in a couple of suspensions so you can have time to do more research or think of another ridiculous name to log in as.
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Lisa4Catholics
Guest
You most probably do not think I am sincere when I say I am worried about you, I am.I will pray that God will help you to understand Him.I am sure you do think it is funny and I am sure you don’t understand where I am coming from at all.But never the less I will ask you to PM me if you have any questions about Catholicism about the spirituality.Also, if you have any questions about why I take such offence PM me and we can talk about it one on one. God Bless
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Lisa4Catholics
Guest
With all due respect I know that these people are God’s children and a demon would be the only type of thing that would make such suggestionsor the devil himself to do what they were doing.Our Lady interceded for these people to deliver them from this kind of thing,so it is quite unsettling to me.Pro-choicers have devotion,satanist have devotion,I am not sure what your saying there
Were they God’s children,yes,were these sacrifices not evil,yes they were,if they were not why would Our Lady have interceded Was Our lady being judgemental or compassionate?I think she was being compassionate.I can understand that the culture didn’t know any better,but does that mean child and infant sacrifice was right?God Bless
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JCPhoenix
Guest
You DEFINITELY misunderstand me, but likely the fault is mine for not being clear.With all due respect I know that these people are God’s children and a demon would be the only type of thing that would make such suggestionsor the devil himself to do what they were doing.Our Lady interceded for these people to deliver them from this kind of thing,so it is quite unsettling to me.Pro-choicers have devotion,satanist have devotion,I am not sure what your saying there
No, none of these things was right. However, a culture doesn’t move on and entirely forget the past, especially in cultures with such a sense of nationalism. Look at the Mexican flag and what it portrays…an image which an Aztec emperor took to mean he should build his city on a particular location. They were the foundation of the people who are there today, and they refuse to forget from where they had come.
Recognizing this history and respecting the people who come from it and fostering understanding does not condone the bloody sacrifices of the past. When a couple names their child “Tloloc” after the ancient diety, they are not doing so to represent child sacrifice. They are choosing that name as a nationalistic symbol, a sign of mythical strength and power, and a tie to their ancestors. Citlali is another name, and one which I happen to love. I can’t remember who the female diety was, however the name itself is benign and represents something jus as my handle, “Phoenix” does.
What I"m saying about devotion is that you have to recognize that others may be just as devoted to what they believe (however mistaken), take time to understand it, and from there you can actually start to reach them. With pro-choicers, there are a number of points to choose, although sometimes prayer is the only thing we can do. Sometimes when we can understand where someone is coming from, and meet them were they are, we can plant some grains of absolute truth. We Catholics have an ABUNDANCE of truth, so we have many seeds to sow.
In the case of the good missionaries in Mexico, rather than responding to a violent culture with more violence, they tried to understand what they could do to turn the devotion of those people to Christ. They found points of identification, and after that, it was a landslide.
I have a special devotion to Our Lady of Guadalupe, by the way. The more I learn about it, the more I realize that the Holy Spirit came before her to touch the hearts of the missionary priests and other religious who sought to convert these poor people of God who had never met Him. They planted the seeds of truth and identification to turn the tide of strong devotion to an even stronger tide of conversion when our Lady appeared.
Does that make more sense now?
Please feel free to send me an e-mail as obvioulsy I have hijacked the thread. Sorry!
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Exporter
Guest
A brief study.
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Aztec Mythology : TLALOC
Also known as NUHUALPILLI, TLÀLOC
**TLALOC: Fertility God. Not nice. His favourite incense is the fuming stench of burning rubber.
**
His priests killed and ate babies to promote rain, which only appeared if the babies cried before death. What was necessary to make it stop raining we won’t even try to imagine.
TLALOC is depicted in a mask with goggling frog eyes and outrageous buck teeth. He’s married to CHALCHIUHTLICUE, who obviously likes that kind of thing. His big sister was salt of the Earth HUIXTOCIHUATL
Some think this is a worthy god.
"
Aztec Mythology : TLALOC
Also known as NUHUALPILLI, TLÀLOC
**TLALOC: Fertility God. Not nice. His favourite incense is the fuming stench of burning rubber.
**
His priests killed and ate babies to promote rain, which only appeared if the babies cried before death. What was necessary to make it stop raining we won’t even try to imagine.
TLALOC is depicted in a mask with goggling frog eyes and outrageous buck teeth. He’s married to CHALCHIUHTLICUE, who obviously likes that kind of thing. His big sister was salt of the Earth HUIXTOCIHUATL
Some think this is a worthy god.
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brotherhrolf
Guest
Let’s see…Last night before I logged off we had a two way mud slinging match underway and the last response I read today from last night is an out-of-contex description of an Aztec god. This thread has been rather jaw-dropping for me. I am absolutely astounded at the idea that an Aztec “god” was in fact a demon who is slowly but surely seducing a 21st century American simply because that person uses the name as a screen name. I am absolutely astounded by the number of folks who simply did an internet search and came up with so much incredible drecht.
I am not an Aztec apologist. I do try, however, to understand the Aztec culture and how it developed just as I would try to understand any other culture (or religion) in the context of its development. I don’t have to agree with them but I do have to try to understand them. Mesoamerican cultures deserve far more than internet searches and wild-eyed condemnation of their pantheons as “demons”.
I have cited an original eye-witness description of what the Spanish encountered in the Valley of Mexico. There are other descriptions of what the Spanish encountered in the Mayan lands and others which describe what they encountered in Peru. Perhaps I am wrong but judging from some of the comments made, you would think that the Spanish conquistadores were noble Catholic warriors bringing the faith to these “poor benighted savages”. The truth is quite a bit more.
I have been to Mass in the cathedral of Sevilla, Spain. The facade behind the immense altar is covered in gold and silver with hundreds of statues of the saints resplendant in gold, silver, turquoise, rubies, etc.- all of it melted down from Aztec, Mayan, Incan etc. artifacts. Our priests burned the overwhelming majority of the Mayan codices because they thought they were demonic. I can’t blame the good Spanish friars because they do look demonic and in the context of their culture burning them could easily be viewed as more than acceptable. However, here we are 500 years later and we are just beginning to understand and translate the surviving Mayan codices. Guess what? They seem to be about astronomy, science and history. Invaluable documents forever gone because the friars didn’t know what they were really about.
Permit me to put it in even greater context. Are we Catholics idol worshipers as our fundementalist bretheren maintain? This forum is replete with misunderstandings of all religions. One more question and then I’ll get off my soapbox…What are you as a Catholic going to do if we encounter extraterrestrial civilizations?
I am not an Aztec apologist. I do try, however, to understand the Aztec culture and how it developed just as I would try to understand any other culture (or religion) in the context of its development. I don’t have to agree with them but I do have to try to understand them. Mesoamerican cultures deserve far more than internet searches and wild-eyed condemnation of their pantheons as “demons”.
I have cited an original eye-witness description of what the Spanish encountered in the Valley of Mexico. There are other descriptions of what the Spanish encountered in the Mayan lands and others which describe what they encountered in Peru. Perhaps I am wrong but judging from some of the comments made, you would think that the Spanish conquistadores were noble Catholic warriors bringing the faith to these “poor benighted savages”. The truth is quite a bit more.
I have been to Mass in the cathedral of Sevilla, Spain. The facade behind the immense altar is covered in gold and silver with hundreds of statues of the saints resplendant in gold, silver, turquoise, rubies, etc.- all of it melted down from Aztec, Mayan, Incan etc. artifacts. Our priests burned the overwhelming majority of the Mayan codices because they thought they were demonic. I can’t blame the good Spanish friars because they do look demonic and in the context of their culture burning them could easily be viewed as more than acceptable. However, here we are 500 years later and we are just beginning to understand and translate the surviving Mayan codices. Guess what? They seem to be about astronomy, science and history. Invaluable documents forever gone because the friars didn’t know what they were really about.
Permit me to put it in even greater context. Are we Catholics idol worshipers as our fundementalist bretheren maintain? This forum is replete with misunderstandings of all religions. One more question and then I’ll get off my soapbox…What are you as a Catholic going to do if we encounter extraterrestrial civilizations?
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Peace-bwu
Guest
Good advice, anyone who is offended by this should choose the “ignore this member feature.”
Fortunately God can take the evil deeds that human beings choose to do, and if there are people who follow His will, God can transform the ugly into something beautiful.
This person obviously wants shock value, sure it is intended to be offensive, either to challenge our religious views or attract attention. Certainly, it could not have been done by accident, considering this member seems somewhat educated…although he/she does have a quote by Homer Simpson as a signature quote,
Most people who know what your member name means probably ignore it because, like me, don’t care much for shock value, its a cheap and annoying.
Come to think of it, yes. Why am I bothering to respond to this
At the end of the day what does it hurt, just one more person who thinks evil is a joke, despite watching the World Trade Center explode to the ground and ethnic cleansing, violent crimes of every kind… these people just want to sit and laugh, much like onlookers laughed at Jesus as he carried His cross. If this person wants to name him/herself after an evil Aztec god or demon, go right ahead. I guess it’s much like a person nameing hiimself “Himler” on a Jewish website. Select the “ignore” feature if it bothers you this much, why let this member with offensive names take away your peace?
Peace Be With You
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Tlaloc
Guest
Yep yep.
No not really. Honestly I’m amazed anyone is bothered by “tlaloc” as a screen name. I have literally used it for about a decade and this is the first time anyone has actually been bothered by it.
I did say I’m interesting in challenging people and in being challenged in return, thats how we grow. But challenge =/= offense.
It’s really not a very good choice for shock value given the relative obscurity of the reference.
I most emphatically don’t think evil is a joke. But equating a screen name with evil surely is.
All of which I take very seriously. And if I may say they seem a tad more evil than the letters T-L-A-L-O-C in conjunction.
Not really. Himmler was a principle architect of the holocaust. That means he’s partially responsible for a massacre of Jews. Aztecs didn’t massacre Catholics, quite the reverse really. And Tlaloc wasn’t a real person but a part of their mythoi.
Couldn’t agree with you more. If you’re the kind to see deadly sin in the choice of a screen name you’ll probably find my posts utterly depressing or enraging. Don’t feel like you have to keep reading them. I do want to discuss things with people but frankly I can do without the paranoia club.
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brotherhrolf
Guest
Brother Hrolf pulls up his cowl and wanders off to his scriptorium. He shakes his head in disbelief and wonders if the story of his life was written by Rod Sterling or if he is waiting for goudot.
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Tlaloc
Guest
Pity.
He seemed rather reasonable.
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john_doran
Guest
now that’s a cool question…
i will proclaim the gospel.
and then i’ll ask them how they got here…
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Traditional_Ang
Guest
Ahimsaman72:
TLALOC has pushed an agenda that has included forced sterilization, abortion and euthanasia. all by force, and all as means of Eugenics and Population Control. That sounds harmful to me! That has NOTHING to do with intent, just his oft stated agenda and what the man’s screenname signifies.
BTW, TLALOC, has used anti-Catholic rhetoric quite often. In case, you haven’t noticed, you have to more than that here to be banned or even suspended from the board. I guess you must be used to boards such as “Democratic Underground” where going against the “Board’s Orthodoxy” will get you banned (It’s in their bylaws)…
ahimsaman72:
TLALOC was not a god, but a DEMON or a DEVIL who was sent to cause human suffering, and did cause human suffering to those slaughtered in his name by the Aztecs.
Don’t forget, The Devil is both a Liar and the “Father of Lies” and a “Lion prowling about looking for whom he might devour”. Just because you choose to believe in him doesn’t mean that he doesn’t exist. In fact, he relies on your unbelief to accomplish much of his evil.
While you’re thinking, ask this, were the Holocaust, the Genocide of 38 million by Stalin in the Ukraine and all the other Genocides of the 29th Century only the work of man? Or, Do you think that the Devil just might have a hand a hand in them?
I recognize full well the human capacity for evil, something many don’t, but the scale and scope of 20th Century slaughter can’t all be traced to human evil!
May God bless you in your search for truth.
In Christ, Michael
TLALOC has pushed an agenda that has included forced sterilization, abortion and euthanasia. all by force, and all as means of Eugenics and Population Control. That sounds harmful to me! That has NOTHING to do with intent, just his oft stated agenda and what the man’s screenname signifies.
BTW, TLALOC, has used anti-Catholic rhetoric quite often. In case, you haven’t noticed, you have to more than that here to be banned or even suspended from the board. I guess you must be used to boards such as “Democratic Underground” where going against the “Board’s Orthodoxy” will get you banned (It’s in their bylaws)…
…The Catholic Church has always denied the existence of other gods, but never the existence of DEMONS/DEVILS and of their master THE DEVIL (who is called “SATAN” or “The Adversary of the People of G-d” by the Jews)!This was a pagan god, no? Does pagan god = demon? I’m just curious. If you are a Christian and don’t believe in the Aztec gods, then why concern yourself with it. I don’t believe in Amon-Ra. If I don’t believe in him, how could I be afraid of him if he doesn’t exist? As far as I know, Christianity has always denied any other gods.
We are judging his intentions, are we not? And even if he did name himself that on purpose, why concern yourself with it? If he has posted horrible things he would’ve been banned a long time ago. Fact is, he hasn’t. He has expressed his ideas without anti-Catholic rhetoric.
Peace…
TLALOC was not a god, but a DEMON or a DEVIL who was sent to cause human suffering, and did cause human suffering to those slaughtered in his name by the Aztecs.
Don’t forget, The Devil is both a Liar and the “Father of Lies” and a “Lion prowling about looking for whom he might devour”. Just because you choose to believe in him doesn’t mean that he doesn’t exist. In fact, he relies on your unbelief to accomplish much of his evil.
While you’re thinking, ask this, were the Holocaust, the Genocide of 38 million by Stalin in the Ukraine and all the other Genocides of the 29th Century only the work of man? Or, Do you think that the Devil just might have a hand a hand in them?
I recognize full well the human capacity for evil, something many don’t, but the scale and scope of 20th Century slaughter can’t all be traced to human evil!
May God bless you in your search for truth.
In Christ, Michael
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Traditional_Ang
Guest
BROTHERS AND SISTERS:
I believe the following to be sound advice. We should shut this puppy down forthwith and debate TLALOC when he pushes his agenda…
Peace-bwu:
I believe the following to be sound advice. We should shut this puppy down forthwith and debate TLALOC when he pushes his agenda…
…To continue this thread is uncharitable and will quite probably risk suspension for posters who are nothing more than frustrated with TLALOC’s agenda and the extremely confrontational manner in which he puts it forth.Good advice, anyone who is offended by this should choose the “ignore this member feature.”
Fortunately God can take the evil deeds that human beings choose to do, and if there are people who follow His will, God can transform the ugly into something beautiful.
This person obviously wants shock value, sure it is intended to be offensive, either to challenge our religious views or attract attention. Certainly, it could not have been done by accident, considering this member seems somewhat educated…although he/she does have a quote by Homer Simpson as a signature quote,
Most people who know what your member name means probably ignore it because, like me, don’t care much for shock value, its a cheap and annoying.
Come to think of it, yes. Why am I bothering to respond to this
At the end of the day what does it hurt, just one more person who thinks evil is a joke, despite watching the World Trade Center explode to the ground and ethnic cleansing, violent crimes of every kind… these people just want to sit and laugh, much like onlookers laughed at Jesus as he carried His cross. If this person wants to name him/herself after an evil Aztec god or demon, go right ahead. I guess it’s much like a person nameing hiimself “Himler” on a Jewish website. Select the “ignore” feature if it bothers you this much, why let this member with offensive names take away your peace?
Peace Be With You
Blessings and peace to all.
In Christ, Michael
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Digitonomy
Guest
Traditional Ang:
Never mind on the Father of Lies - it’s in John 8:44. Still looking for the lion prowling…
Do you have a cite for these? I vaguely remember them, especially the first, which may be in the renewal of our baptismal vows. But I don’t recall where these would be in scripture - or are they from the Church Fathers?
Never mind on the Father of Lies - it’s in John 8:44. Still looking for the lion prowling…
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Traditional_Ang
Guest
Exporter:
We’ve seen this one before. I’d say drop it, and don’t use unless TLALOC decides to start pushing Eugenics and Population Control again.
Do we have a deal?
Blessings to you and your family.
Good Night, Michael
Exporter:
We’ve seen this one before. I’d say drop it, and don’t use unless TLALOC decides to start pushing Eugenics and Population Control again.
Do we have a deal?
Blessings to you and your family.
Good Night, Michael
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