TLALOC - pagan Aztec God

[ahimsaman72]

Kevin Walker:

Hi,

Because I found dozens of sites describing the evil deity TLALOC, I didn’t think it practical to list each and every one.

But here’s one which might answer some of your questions:

homestead.com/summoningspirit/AZTEC.html

scroll down to: AH HOYA “…called (he who urinates) as another name for the Rain god Tlaloc …”.

And as for some sites giving TLALOC as being pre-Aztec, that just goes to show how inconsistant and erroneous the internet can be for scholarly research, but it’s convenient for any talk forum. Pax

Hello Kevin,

I did go to the site you listed. I clipped this from there:

Although the dead were generally cremated, those who had died from one of the special illnesses or who had Those who died from drowning, or anything thought to be associated with water; or who had been struck by lightning were buried. Tlaloc bestowed on them an eternal and blissful life in his paradise, Tlalocan. So; being drowned as a sacrifice was a gift of eternal bliss.

---

As unfortunate and ridiculous as it may seem to us, that was their belief system. I can’t imagine living in that way and submitting my children in that way. However, if I didn’t know anything about Christ and His love, it wouldn’t matter because I wouldn’t know the difference.

Perhaps we don’t really know for sure how much true scholarly work has been done and is widely available to the average Joe. From what I saw, most of the material was consistent with each other, but at least one site was just copying material from another. I would just caution that we don’t really know a lot about this and should let it lie.

Now, with all that said, I will ask you the same question I asked Lisa. If it’s a false god that isn’t even believed on (by the majority of people), then what does it matter? And, even given that, isn’t the Christ in you stronger than any god that you can come up with? I mean, at the name of Christ demons were cast out of people in the NT. Do you equate false gods with demons? Do you believe demons are masquerading as false gods?

Peace…

 

[ahimsaman72]

Kevin Walker:

Hi,

Because I found dozens of sites describing the evil deity TLALOC, I didn’t think it practical to list each and every one.

But here’s one which might answer some of your questions:

homestead.com/summoningspirit/AZTEC.html

scroll down to: AH HOYA “…called (he who urinates) as another name for the Rain god Tlaloc …”.

And as for some sites giving TLALOC as being pre-Aztec, that just goes to show how inconsistant and erroneous the internet can be for scholarly research, but it’s convenient for any talk forum. Pax

Hello Kevin,

I did go to the site you listed. I clipped this from there:

Although the dead were generally cremated, those who had died from one of the special illnesses or who had Those who died from drowning, or anything thought to be associated with water; or who had been struck by lightning were buried. Tlaloc bestowed on them an eternal and blissful life in his paradise, Tlalocan. So; being drowned as a sacrifice was a gift of eternal bliss.

---

As unfortunate and ridiculous as it may seem to us, that was their belief system. I can’t imagine living in that way and submitting my children in that way. However, if I didn’t know anything about Christ and His love, it wouldn’t matter because I wouldn’t know the difference.

Perhaps we don’t really know for sure how much true scholarly work has been done and is widely available to the average Joe. From what I saw, most of the material was consistent with each other, but at least one site was just copying material from another. I would just caution that we don’t really know a lot about this and should let it lie.

Now, with all that said, I will ask you the same question I asked Lisa. If it’s a false god that isn’t even believed on (by the majority of people), then what does it matter? And, even given that, isn’t the Christ in you stronger than any god that you can come up with? I mean, at the name of Christ demons were cast out of people in the NT. Do you equate false gods with demons? Do you believe demons are masquerading as false gods?

Peace…

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

ahimsaman72:

Hello Kevin,

I did go to the site you listed. I clipped this from there:

Although the dead were generally cremated, those who had died from one of the special illnesses or who had Those who died from drowning, or anything thought to be associated with water; or who had been struck by lightning were buried. Tlaloc bestowed on them an eternal and blissful life in his paradise, Tlalocan. So; being drowned as a sacrifice was a gift of eternal bliss.

As unfortunate and ridiculous as it may seem to us, that was their belief system. I can’t imagine living in that way and submitting my children in that way. However, if I didn’t know anything about Christ and His love, it wouldn’t matter because I wouldn’t know the difference.

Perhaps we don’t really know for sure how much true scholarly work has been done and is widely available to the average Joe. From what I saw, most of the material was consistent with each other, but at least one site was just copying material from another. I would just caution that we don’t really know a lot about this and should let it lie.

Now, with all that said, I will ask you the same question I asked Lisa. If it’s a false god that isn’t even believed on (by the majority of people), then what does it matter? And, even given that, isn’t the Christ in you stronger than any god that you can come up with? I mean, at the name of Christ demons were cast out of people in the NT. Do you equate false gods with demons? Do you believe demons are masquerading as false gods?

Peace…

False gods, and such are demonic in nature, yes.Demons have one funtion the ruin of souls to mislead into falsehoods and lies is demonic in nature.The Bible scriptures were not happy and content with the worship of false gods either ,nor the sacrifices made to them.In fact it was condemned.God Bless

 

[Kevin_Walker]

ahimsaman72:

Hello Kevin,

I did go to the site you listed. I clipped this from there:

Although the dead were generally cremated, those who had died from one of the special illnesses or who had Those who died from drowning, or anything thought to be associated with water; or who had been struck by lightning were buried. Tlaloc bestowed on them an eternal and blissful life in his paradise, Tlalocan. So; being drowned as a sacrifice was a gift of eternal bliss.

---

As unfortunate and ridiculous as it may seem to us, that was their belief system. I can’t imagine living in that way and submitting my children in that way. However, if I didn’t know anything about Christ and His love, it wouldn’t matter because I wouldn’t know the difference.

Perhaps we don’t really know for sure how much true scholarly work has been done and is widely available to the average Joe. From what I saw, most of the material was consistent with each other, but at least one site was just copying material from another. I would just caution that we don’t really know a lot about this and should let it lie.

Now, with all that said, I will ask you the same question I asked Lisa. If it’s a false god that isn’t even believed on (by the majority of people), then what does it matter? And, even given that, isn’t the Christ in you stronger than any god that you can come up with? I mean, at the name of Christ demons were cast out of people in the NT. Do you equate false gods with demons? Do you believe demons are masquerading as false gods?

Peace…

Hi,

I believe the name of an evil diety, one that was reviled in its own religion and time, an evil diety who enjoyed the suffering and human sacrifice of children, and one who’s name appears on a Catholic forum, should be identified and studied in case of a hidden agenda or subliminal text contained within various posts be the purpose of the use of that foul name TLALOC.

Also, please reread my posts, I have never referred to TLALOC as either a demon or a false God, just as a pagan Aztec God.

As for the scholarly integrity of the internet, my courses on historiography in my graduate History course have taught me to cite one’s source very carefully. Which would not allow me to use the internet for any serious historical research, but just for general perusal of subject matter.

 

[ahimsaman72]

Lisa4Catholics:

False gods, and such are demonic in nature, yes.Demons have one funtion the ruin of souls to mislead into falsehoods and lies is demonic in nature.The Bible scriptures were not happy and content with the worship of false gods either ,nor the sacrifices made to them.In fact it was condemned.God Bless

First, forgive me for the double post - the computer is going nuts!

Anyway, I realize the role demons play in the NT. The OT is virtually silent on them (as far as I remember at this writing). Yes, Scriptures condemned idolatry (easy one to verify) and sacrifices made to false gods. I’m not defending this kind of behavior.

I’ve spoken with people who claimed to be demon-possessed. Was I frightened of them? Yes, to some degree. But, as I quoted earlier, “Greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world.” I just wouldn’t get too hung up about it. If Christ is who you and I would say He is, He will deal with any such demons.

Peace…

 

[ahimsaman72]

Kevin Walker:

Hi,

I believe the name of an evil diety, one that was reviled in its own religion and time, an evil diety who enjoyed the suffering and human sacrifice of children, and one who’s name appears on a Catholic forum, should be identified and studied in case of a hidden agenda or subliminal text contained within various posts be the purpose of the use of that foul name TLALOC.

That is your perogative. It’s a free country . But, remember, it is your perception that this is an evil deity. And again, since you are a Christian and have the “greater God”, I don’t see the impact on you. That’s just me.

Also, please reread my posts, I have never referred to TLALOC as either a demon or a false God, just as a pagan Aztec God.

I was just wondering.

As for the scholarly integrity of the internet, my courses on historiography in my graduate History course have taught me to cite one’s source very carefully. Which would not allow me to use the internet for any serious historical research, but just for general perusal of subject matter.

I understand. I won’t hold it against you .

Peace…

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

ahimsaman72:

First, forgive me for the double post - the computer is going nuts!

Anyway, I realize the role demons play in the NT. The OT is virtually silent on them (as far as I remember at this writing). Yes, Scriptures condemned idolatry (easy one to verify) and sacrifices made to false gods. I’m not defending this kind of behavior.

I’ve spoken with people who claimed to be demon-possessed. Was I frightened of them? Yes, to some degree. But, as I quoted earlier, “Greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world.” I just wouldn’t get too hung up about it. If Christ is who you and I would say He is, He will deal with any such demons.

Peace…

If you look through his posts including one who was a teenager who was asking for advice on modesty you would understand my concern.Possession is not the only way the demonic works, there is obsession, infestation, intergenerational deomonic activity.I pray for tlaloc the person behind the call name.I feel like he is being used by the evil one and the evil ones henchmen.I feel as intelligent as the poster is he has been sorely mislead and I hope other posters pray as well for him.God bless
PS the posts description of the nature of the pagan diety and what I saw myself on the web and the posters posts are eerily similar and I ask all of you guys to pray for him.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Sometime a name is just that a name. I recognized Tlaloc’s name way back in December and he or she and I had a lovely conversation about rain…Tlaloc being known to me as the Aztec rain god. I countered that I was more of a Xochipilli type - flowers and happiness.

I can’t imagine anyone in their right minds worshiping anyone in the Aztec pantheon. Have any of you good folk read the Conquest of New Spain by Bernal Diaz one of Cortes’ conquistadores? The really frightening Aztec god is Huitzipotchli - the god of war. The priests of this god (also known as the flayed one) flayed the skin off of their sacrifices and then wore the skin over their own. There are numerous statues reflecting this. Another lesser known fact is that the Aztecs were cannibals as well. Diaz records haunches of human legs hanging from rafters to “cure”. This was not ritual cannibalism but a source of protein in the Valley of Mexico where the deer had been virtually wiped out and the only other sources of protein were fish, turkeys, and the ubiquitous chihuaha.

I look at the issue of Tlaloc the same way I look at Zeus, Hera, Thor, Odin, Quetzalcoatl or any of the other ancient pantheons…in an historic/anthropological/archaeological/comparitive religions sense but as actual demons? Is the lawyer/reporter on Fox News with the name of Aphrodite actually worshiping a demon? C’mon folks!

 

[Tlaloc]

Scott_Lafrance:

I am wondering what made this worthy of discussion? If Tlaloc is that offensive, put him on your ignore list. problem solved. If his posts are that patently offensive, report him.

Sounds reasonable to me.

But to start a thread so he can sing and dance in the spotlight isn’t helping the problem (if there indeed is one).

Just so we’re clear that I didn’t start a thread about me, that’s left to my adoring fans.

Had you not done research, I am sure that 99% of the people here would have not clue what Tlaloc means.

I don’t think ignorance is anything to celebrate though.

 

[Tlaloc]

Kevin Walker:

If you don’t subscribe to Aztec beliefs, just what motivated you to adopt the name Tlaloc, a pagan God who demanded screaming & crying children be drowned for his appeasement?

Haven’t I already answered this? I found the aztecs interesting. My hometown was rainy. Aztec names are usually unreserved on most forums. Tlaloc is shorter than Quetzalcouatl, Chalchihuitlicue, or Tezcatlipoca (as examples).

Why this connection to dying CHILDREN?

That’s all you baby, I’ve never read anything about Tlaloc being specifically connected to child sacrifices.

Why not just take an equally offensive name like Gog or MaGog or Baal? Nothing amusing about it.

Well we all have different senses of humor. Personally I find it grimly amusing. Much like the attacks on Tinkywinky and Spongebob Squarepants.

 

[Tlaloc]

Kevin Walker:

And as for some sites giving TLALOC as being pre-Aztec, that just goes to show how inconsistant and erroneous the internet can be for scholarly research, but it’s convenient for any talk forum. Pax

Tlaloc was pre-Aztec in the sense that he was part of the pantheons of the Olmeca and Tolteca. He was also aprt of the Aztec pantheon as well and they are more widely known.

 

[brotherhrolf]

I am really shocked by the vitriol in some of the previous posts and equally shocked by the lack of understanding of ancient cultures and history. You cannot rely upon the internet to give you an understanding of ancient mesoamerican culture. One of the most glaring examples was the connection between Huitzlipotchtli and flowers. Mesoamerican cultures fought “Wars of the Flowers”. Warriors on the battlefield were not killed but “surrendered” to better warriors (similar to native americans on the plains “counting coup”). This was an honorable thing to do even though one ended up sacrificed. Imagine facing an aztec jaguar knight who is armed with a mahogony sword which is lined with obsidian (the sharpest known natural substance). Diaz records a jaguar knight with a two-handed obsidian sword taking off the head of one of the conquistadores horses. Please folks! I have given you a first person Catholic account of what Hernan Cortes encountered. Read it.

 

[Tlaloc]

Psalm89:

I think TLALOC selected his name so that threads like this could take place and attention would be focused on him.

I’ve used this name for about a decade now.

He could have picked “Mr. Pagan” or other such things, but it wouldn’t sound nearly as cool as a mythical, pagan Aztec diety.

I’m glad you think it sounds cool. Yours is nice too.

He already said he didn’t pick Tlaloc because he worships him, just because it sounds cool.

Well sounding cool is part of it, like I said the rain connection, my early interest in aztecs, the fact it’s rarely taken, and the anthropology aspect all play roles.

 

[Tlaloc]

Kevin Walker:

I think the operant term here is ‘willing’, nothing was written about Aztec children bawling their eyes out knowing they were to be sacrificed to TLALOC as ‘willing’; my guess is that they were traumatized and evil TLALOC enjoyed the suffering of children; similar to the writings found in the Marque de Sade.

Tlaloc enjoyed the suffering? Kevin, you do realize this was a mythological entity and not a real person, right?

 

[Tlaloc]

Kevin Walker:

Hi,

I believe the name of an evil diety, one that was reviled in its own religion and time, an evil diety who enjoyed the suffering and human sacrifice of children, and one who’s name appears on a Catholic forum, should be identified and studied in case of a hidden agenda or subliminal text contained within various posts be the purpose of the use of that foul name TLALOC.

See what I mean about amusing? Also Tlaloc wasn’t reviled in the Azteca culture.

 

[Tlaloc]

Kevin Walker:

As for the scholarly integrity of the internet, my courses on historiography in my graduate History course have taught me to cite one’s source very carefully. Which would not allow me to use the internet for any serious historical research, but just for general perusal of subject matter.

scholar.google.com%between%

Know it, love it.

 

[brotherhrolf]

WAIT A MINUTE! I didn’t catch that! Kevin I don’t know what area of history you studied but your research methodolgy leaves a great bit to be desired. Using the internet as a primary source!!! We didn’t have the internet when I went to grad school but I cannot conceive of any history or anthropology department I’ve ever been associated with which would accept internet inquiries over primary documents/sources!

 

[brotherhrolf]

Ooops sorry misread the quote! Still in all, Kevin, I would be extremely careful in accepting anything off the internet particularly since none of the sites you quoted were academic.

 

[brotherhrolf]

PS. Bernal Diaz is a primary document. Give me your documentation preferences (history or anthropolgy - they differ) and I will be glad to cite this for you.

 

[Kevin_Walker]

brotherhrolf:

WAIT A MINUTE! I didn’t catch that! Kevin I don’t know what area of history you studied but your research methodolgy leaves a great bit to be desired. Using the internet as a primary source!!! We didn’t have the internet when I went to grad school but I cannot conceive of any history or anthropology department I’ve ever been associated with which would accept internet inquiries over primary documents/sources!

Hi Brotherwolf,

I didn’t have the internet when I was a History graduate student either! I also know enough not to use the internet as a primary source; primary sources are hard enough to come by without fabricating them. I also never said to use the internet as a primary source (which sounds as incongruous as using the library as a primary source).

Thank you for this post and being aware of how important historiography is to the responsible researcher, and why I supplied more than one internet source on the pagan Aztec God TLALOC.