To be deep in the bible is to cease to be Catholic

[malachi_a_serva]

MariaG:

Most Bible Churches I have ever gone to don’t consider contraception or masturbation to be immoral.

I have never heard contraception discussed, but masturbation,…yes. And it would be considered a sin as Jesus said even to look at a woman with lust is commiting adultary already in his heart. In order to do that sin, one would have to “lust”…

 

[Giver]

David Zampino:

Giver,

I’m terribly sorry that you have left the Faith for something less valuable.

I am a convert to the Faith, having spent 35+ years of my life in other churches, including 9+ years as a clergyman.

Let’s be honest – the Scriptures by themselves do NOT “read quite plainly”. Been there – done that. If this were true, why are there umpteen zillion different conservative, evangelical groups each claiming to have “THE ANSWER”???

You reference the Holy Spirit. Don’t you know that the gift of the Holy Spirit comes through the Church?

I pray that you return to your First Love and for the forgiveness of God for those who have deceived you.

Blessings,

We all are responsible for our own souls. So, no matter who tell us anything about God, we should go to Jesus and ask Him what is right or wrong.

(John 10:14-16) “I am the good shepherd; I know my own and my own know me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for my sheep. And there are other sheep I have that are not of this fold, and these I have to lead as well. **They too will listen to my voice, and there will be only one flock, and one shepherd. **

(Mark 9:38 – 40) “John said to Him, ‘Master, we saw a man who is not one of us casting out devils in your name; and because he was not one of us we tried to stop him’. But Jesus said, ‘you must not stop him: no one who works a miracle in my name is likely to speak evil of me. Anyone who is not against us is

(Acts 2:38-39) “You must repent, Peter answered and every one of you must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise that was made is for you and your children, and for all those who are far away, for all those whom the Lord our God is calling to himself.”

(Hebrews 8:10-12) “No, this is the covenant I will make with the House of Israel when those days arrive-it is the Lord who speaks. I will put my laws into their minds and write them on their hearts. Then I will be their God and they shall be my people. **There will be no further need for neighbour to try to teach neighbour, or ** brother to say to brother, ’Learn to know the Lord’. No, they will all know me, the least no less than the greatest, since I will forgive their iniquities and never call their sins to mind.”

(John 14:26)
“But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything and remind you of all I have said to you.”

(Matthew 7:21) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven **but the person who does the will ** of My Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”

 

[alexaustralia]

To protestant brothers that agree with the quiz on

www.catholicroman…
there was a question regarding who you can call father.
Please read 1 Corinthians 4: 14-17.
14I am not writing this to shame you, but to warn you, as my dear children. 15Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. 16Therefore I urge you to imitate me. 17For this reason I am sending to you Timothy, my son whom I love, who is faithful in the Lord. He will remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, which agrees with what I teach everywhere in every church.

So who alone can you call father? If Paul is an exception to the rule because he is preaching the gospel…why not priests?

I sympathise with all of you, our protestant brothers/sisters and all the wrong information you have been handed down. I hope one day you will find it in your heart to start asking yourselves whether the Catholic church just might be teaching the truth.

 

[Giver]

alexaustralia:

To protestant brothers that agree with the quiz on

www.catholicroman…
there was a question regarding who you can call father.
Please read 1 Corinthians 4: 14-17.
14I am not writing this to shame you, but to warn you, as my dear children. 15Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. 16Therefore I urge you to imitate me. 17For this reason I am sending to you Timothy, my son whom I love, who is faithful in the Lord. He will remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, which agrees with what I teach everywhere in every church.

So who alone can you call father? If Paul is an exception to the rule because he is preaching the gospel…why not priests?

I sympathise with all of you, our protestant brothers/sisters and all the wrong information you have been handed down. I hope one day you will find it in your heart to start asking yourselves whether the Catholic church just might be teaching the truth.

(Matthew 23:8-12) “You, however, must not allow yourselves to be called Rabbi, since you have only one Master, and you are all brothers. You must call no one on earth your father, since you have only one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor must you allow yourselves to be called teachers, for you have only one Teacher, the Christ. The greatest among you must be your servant. Anyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and anyone who humbles himself will be exalted.

I don’t believe Paul ever allowed any one to call him father Paul. I also believe his use of father, was just an expression to remind the people to whom he was writing that he was responsible for their rebirth in Christ.

Now think of it, even if we believe Paul, Peter, or any of the Apostles told us to do something that Jesus said not to do, are Christians followers of Paul? No! Christians are followers of Christ. We learned from Peter, Matthew, John, James, Mark, Luke, Paul, and the rest, but if what we think we have learned from them differs from what Jesus told us we had better listen to Jesus.

Also Jesus gave us His Holy Spirit to settle any misunderstandings.

 

[RyanL]

Giver:

I don’t believe Paul ever allowed any one to call him father Paul. I also believe his use of father, was just an expression to remind the people to whom he was writing that he was responsible for their rebirth in Christ.

Giver,

It’s nice that you believe this, but I have a couple of questions:

1. Where does the text ever say that St. Paul didn’t allow anyone to call him father? We speak Bible on this site - if you can’t provide even a single scripture from where you get this belief (implicitly or explicitly), you really have no argument. We’re not just going to accept as historical fact your opinion about what may have been the case.
2. Why, if he was going to steer so far away from the title, would St. Paul apply it to himslef?
3. What do you think St. Paul called his own daddy?
4. When you were in school, who was the person who stood in front of the class and gave instruction?

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[mercygate]

Giver:

We all are responsible for our own souls. So, no matter who tell us anything about God, we should go to Jesus and ask Him what is right or wrong.

(John 10:14-16) “I am the good shepherd; I know my own and my own know me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for my sheep. And there are other sheep I have that are not of this fold, and these I have to lead as well. **They too will listen to my voice, and there will be only one flock, and one shepherd. **

(Mark 9:38 – 40) “John said to Him, ‘Master, we saw a man who is not one of us casting out devils in your name; and because he was not one of us we tried to stop him’. But Jesus said, ‘you must not stop him: no one who works a miracle in my name is likely to speak evil of me. Anyone who is not against us is

(Acts 2:38-39) “You must repent, Peter answered and every one of you must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise that was made is for you and your children, and for all those who are far away, for all those whom the Lord our God is calling to himself.”

(Hebrews 8:10-12) “No, this is the covenant I will make with the House of Israel when those days arrive-it is the Lord who speaks. I will put my laws into their minds and write them on their hearts. Then I will be their God and they shall be my people. **There will be no further need for neighbour to try to teach neighbour, or **brother to say to brother, ’Learn to know the Lord’. No, they will all know me, the least no less than the greatest, since I will forgive their iniquities and never call their sins to mind.”

(John 14:26)
“But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything and remind you of all I have said to you.”

(Matthew 7:21) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven **but the person who does the will **of My Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”

Translation: My Holy Spirit can beat up your Holy Spirit!

This kind of verse slinging amounts to nothing more than plqdint a self-affirmed subjective “experience” of spiritual inspiration above the Word of Christ.

 

[Giver]

RyanL:

Giver,

It’s nice that you believe this, but I have a couple of questions:

1. Where does the text ever say that St. Paul didn’t allow anyone to call him father? We speak Bible on this site - if you can’t provide even a single scripture from where you get this belief (implicitly or explicitly), you really have no argument. We’re not just going to accept as historical fact your opinion about what may have been the case.
2. Why, if he was going to steer so far away from the title, would St. Paul apply it to himslef? Read my last post.
3. What do you think St. Paul called his own daddy?
4. When you were in school, who was the person who stood in front of the class and gave instruction?

God Bless,
RyanL

You can’t show me anywhere in Scripture where someone addressed Paul as “Father Paul”.

Well first it was my parents, who taught me about God, then I went to school and the nuns were my teachers. I believe it was high school before a Catholic priest, one who physically took his fist and knocked out a school friend of mine, taught me anything about God, and I have to laugh at some of his teachings. I latter taught adult classes in the Catholic Church, and I sure wouldn’t allow any one to call me father.

 

[RyanL]

Giver:

You can’t show me anywhere in Scripture where someone addressed Paul as “Father Paul”.

This is a silly argument - you can’t find the word ‘Trinity’ either, but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t true. What I can show you is St. Paul calling himself a “father through the gospel”, which is exactly how we use the term regarding priests. BTW, you didn’t answer my first three questions.

… the nuns were my teachers.

:bigyikes::bigyikes::bigyikes::bigyikes:

(Matthew 23:8-12) “You, however, must not allow yourselves to be called Rabbi, since you have only one Master, and you are all brothers. You must call no one on earth your father, since you have only one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor must you allow yourselves to be called teachers, for you have only one Teacher, the Christ. (Emphasis added)

You have just committed the same error you accuse the Catholic Church of committing!!! How do you reconcile this?

I latter taught adult classes in the Catholic Church, and I sure wouldn’t allow any one to call me father.

That’s good, because you were neither a bishop nor a priest, and therefore had no claim to the title.

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[David_Zampino]

mercygate:

Translation: My Holy Spirit can beat up your Holy Spirit!

This kind of verse slinging amounts to nothing more than plqdint a self-affirmed subjective “experience” of spiritual inspiration above the Word of Christ.

Agreed.

Blessings,

 

[mercygate]

Giver:

You can’t show me anywhere in Scripture where someone addressed Paul as “Father Paul”.

Well first it was my parents, who taught me about God, then I went to school and the nuns were my teachers. I believe it was high school before a Catholic priest, one who physically took his fist and knocked out a school friend of mine, taught me anything about God, and I have to laugh at some of his teachings. I latter taught adult classes in the Catholic Church, and I sure wouldn’t allow any one to call me father.

So, was Jesus confused? In Luke 16:24 & 30 and in John 8:53 & 56 he calls Abraham “father.” And under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, St. Stephen begins his oration, “Brethren and fathers, hear me.” (Acts 7:1) Paul says in Philippians that “Timothy’s worth you know, how as a son with a** father** he has served with me.” Phil 2:22. In I Jn 2:13 & 14 addressing the elders of the Christian community, he calls them “fathers”.

The Holy Spirit must be contradicting himself all over the New Testament if Jesus’ declaration in Mt. 23:9 means we cannot ever utter the word “father” in relation to a human being. Since we know that Scripture does not contradict itself, Jesus must have had something else in mind.

It makes more sense to understand his admonition as a way of accusing the pharisees of usurping the authority of fatherhood but not exercising its spiritual responsibilities. When Elisha calls Elijah “father,” when Jesus calls Abraham “father,” when Paul refers to himself as “father,” when Stephen and John call the elders “father” they must be referring to their participation in the holy fatherhood entrusted to them by God the Father, from whom all fatherhood is derived. And that is what Catholics, and the Orthodox, and Anglicans do when they address their Priests as “father.”

 

[Giver]

mercygate:

So, was Jesus confused? In Luke 16:24 & 30 and in John 8:53 & 56 he calls Abraham “father.” And under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, St. Stephen begins his oration, “Brethren and fathers, hear me.” (Acts 7:1) Paul says in Philippians that “Timothy’s worth you know, how as a son with a** father** he has served with me.” Phil 2:22. In I Jn 2:13 & 14 addressing the elders of the Christian community, he calls them “fathers”.

The Holy Spirit must be contradicting himself all over the New Testament if Jesus’ declaration in Mt. 23:9 means we cannot ever utter the word “father” in relation to a human being. Since we know that Scripture does not contradict itself, Jesus must have had something else in mind.

It makes more sense to understand his admonition as a way of accusing the pharisees of usurping the authority of fatherhood but not exercising its spiritual responsibilities. When Elisha calls Elijah “father,” when Jesus calls Abraham “father,” when Paul refers to himself as “father,” when Stephen and John call the elders “father” they must be referring to their participation in the holy fatherhood entrusted to them by God the Father, from whom all fatherhood is derived. And that is what Catholics, and the Orthodox, and Anglicans do when they address their Priests as “father.”

Jesus told us not to call one another father, teacher etc. (Matthew 23:8) “You, however, must not allow yourselves to be call Rabbi, since you have only one Master, and you are all brothers.”

Jesus was most likely telling us that we only have one master and all praise and glory belong to Him not to anyone else. Father is used in the church to give honor to another Christian who has been set aside by the church as someone special. Jesus says we are all brothers not one above another.

It is dangerous to be called father or to call another brother father. The resent history of the abuses of a number of Catholic priests proves my case.

 

[RyanL]

Giver:

Jesus was most likely telling us that we only have one master and all praise and glory belong to Him not to anyone else.

I would agree with this to a large extent, but I would also say that God chooses to share His glory with others. God Alone? Sure, but God is never alone. He doesn’t have an ego problem; He shares His glory with those who are Godly as a loving father does with his children.

Father is used in the church to give honor to another Christian who has been set aside by the church as someone special. Jesus says we are all brothers not one above another.

Is your position that no one in the New Testament Church has more authority than another? (Caution: There is much biblical support for one position, and none for the other.)

It is dangerous to be called father or to call another brother father. The resent history of the abuses of a number of Catholic priests proves my case.

Please take a read through this and say that again with a straight face. You may also be interested in this:

According to a survey by the Washington Post, over the last four decades, less than 1.5 percent of the estimated 60,000 or more men who have served in the Catholic clergy have been accused of child sexual abuse. According to a survey by the New York Times, 1.8 percent of all priests ordained from 1950 to 2001 have been accused of child sexual abuse. Thomas Kane, author of Priests are People Too, estimates that between 1 and 1.5 percent of priests have had charges made against them. %between%Of contemporary priests, the Associated Press found that approximately two-thirds of 1 percent of priests have charges pending against them.%between%
…
[As compared to Protestant clergy]
…
In a 1984 survey, 38.6 percent of ministers reported sexual contact with a church member, and 76 percent knew of another minister who had had sexual intercourse with a parishioner.%between% In the same year, a Fuller Seminary survey of 1,200 ministers found that 20 percent of theologically “conservative” pastors admitted to some sexual contact outside of marriage with a church member. The figure jumped to over 40 percent for “moderates”; 50 percent of “liberal” pastors confessed to similar behavior.%between%
…
[As compared to secular teachers]
…
It was reported in 1991 that 17.7 percent of males who graduated from high school, and 82.2 percent of females, reported sexual harassment by faculty or staff during their years in school. Fully 13.5 percent said they had sexual intercourse with their teacher.%between%

%between%

What is your response to this objective data? Are you still willing to bet that your argument against calling a priest “father” should hold sway?

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[mercygate]

Giver:

Jesus told us not to call one another father, teacher etc. (Matthew 23:8) “You, however, must not allow yourselves to be call Rabbi, since you have only one Master, and you are all brothers.”

Jesus was most likely telling us that we only have one master and all praise and glory belong to Him not to anyone else. Father is used in the church to give honor to another Christian who has been set aside by the church as someone special. Jesus says we are all brothers not one above another.

It is dangerous to be called father or to call another brother father. The resent history of the abuses of a number of Catholic priests proves my case.

Your case does not include how the Holy Spirit inspired John, James, Jude, Peter and Paul to use the term “father.” And nobody called brother Jim Bakker or Brother Jimmy Swaggart “father” so the proof that using the term father is responsible is no proof at all. Moreover, until the middle of the 19th Century, Protestants called their senior clergy father, so it seems that the absolute prohibition against acknowledging the fatherly office of pastors by using the name “father” is a new invention.

 

[Giver]

RyanL:

I would agree with this to a large extent, but I would also say that God chooses to share His glory with others. God Alone? Sure, but God is never alone. He doesn’t have an ego problem; He shares His glory with those who are Godly as a loving father does with his children.

Is your position that no one in the New Testament Church has more authority than another? (Caution: There is much biblical support for one position, and none for the other.)

Please take a read through this and say that again with a straight face. You may also be interested in this:
%between%

What is your response to this objective data? Are you still willing to bet that your argument against calling a priest “father” should hold sway?

God Bless,
RyanL

RyanL, I didn’t say anything about authority, I said honor, and show me in Scripture where Jesus shares His Glory. All glory and honor belongs to Jesus not to us.

(1 Corinthians 4:21) “Since the kingdom of God is not just words, it is power. It is for you to decide: do I come with a stick in my hand or in a spirit of love and goodwill?”

Protestants call their ministers Rev. I would say this address falls into the same category as teacher, etc. I personally haven’t found Protestants to be any closer to walking in the Word of God then the Catholics.

 

[RyanL]

Giver:

Protestants call their ministers Rev. I would say this address falls into the same category as teacher, etc. I personally haven’t found Protestants to be any closer to walking in the Word of God then the Catholics.

Some Protestants call their ministers Rev. Others call them ‘Pastor’. Still others call them ‘Brother’. And guess what - there are only three groups of Christians - Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants. As you’re not Catholic or Orthodox, that only leaves you with one other flavor. Granted, there are some 30,000 different types within that flavor, but such is the case when everyone becomes their own Pope.

BTW, you still haven’t answered my first three questions.

As for authority / honor - how’s this:
Matthew 19:19
Jesus replied, " ‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’ "

John 7:18
He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but** he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him.

**John 12:26
Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. **My Father will honor the one who serves me. **

Glory?
1 Peter 5:1
To the elders among you,** I **appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ’s sufferings and **one who also will share in the ****glory to be revealed:

2 Thessalonians 2:14
He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share** in the **glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

**Like I said, we speak Bible on this site. You may want to choose your words a little more carefully, as you have contradicted the plain words of Scripture at several points now.

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[Giver]

Some Protestants call their ministers Rev. Others call them ‘Pastor’. Still others call them ‘Brother’. And guess what - there are only three groups of Christians - Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants. As you’re not Catholic or Orthodox, that only leaves you with one other flavor. Granted, there are some 30,000 different types within that flavor, but such is the case when everyone becomes their own Pope.

BTW, you still haven’t answered my first three questions.

As for authority / honor - how’s this:
Matthew 19:19
Jesus replied, " ‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’ "

John 7:18
He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but** he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him.

**John 12:26
Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. **My Father will honor the one who serves me. **

Glory?
1 Peter 5:1
To the elders among you,** I **appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ’s sufferings and **one who also will share in the ****glory to be revealed:

2 Thessalonians 2:14
He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share** in the **glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

**Like I said, we speak Bible on this site. You may want to choose your words a little more carefully, as you have contradicted the plain words of Scripture at several points now.

God Bless,
RyanL

I know Jesus didn’t mean to share His glory with us here on earth in this lifetime. We will share His glory when we are with Him in His Kingdom.

You are right I should have said many Protestant ministers.

It is interesting the Eastern Catholic Church says the Roman Catholic Church is the first Protestant Church.

Yours in Christ,
Giver

 

[Giovanni]

Do so many not realize that the Bible is Catholic. I think a lot of people know how the Bible came to be, but are so full of whatever pride they have, blinding themselves from the truth.

We all know that the Holy Bible, a collection of books written by men inspired by God, was put together by the Catholic church in the 4’th century, a task that took many religious men inspired by God 50 years to put together.

In the 15’th century diuring the reformation, the protestants removed seven books from the Bible, which they deemed not inspired by God since they were originally written in greek (does that mean that any books or writings inspired by God since the Bible, though not written in hebrew, should not be regarded as being inspired by God) .

Thus, in saying all that, if you are deep in the bible, you couldn’t be any more catholic .

Giovanni

 

[ComradeAndrei]

I know Jesus didn’t mean to share His glory with us here on earth in this lifetime. We will share His glory when we are with Him in His Kingdom.

We share in His glory because we are members of the Mystical Body of Christ.

It is interesting the Eastern Catholic Church says the Roman Catholic Church is the first Protestant Church.

You must mean the Eastern Orthodox, the Eastern Catholics are in union with the Pope.

That is indeed the claim of some of them, but Scripture, Tradition, Magisterium, and not to mention the Fathers and history are on our side.

 

[mercygate]

Giovanni:

In the 15’th century diuring the reformation, the protestants removed seven books from the Bible, which they deemed not inspired by God since they were originally written in greek (does that mean that any books or writings inspired by God since the Bible, though not written in hebrew, should not be regarded as being inspired by God) .

Giovanni

And those same Protestants who deny the inspiration of the Deuterocanonical books because they were written in Greek claim that the Holy Spirit chose to pass along the New Testament in Greek just so that Peter’s name would come down to us as Petros instead of Petra, thus bypassing the Aramaic – which, therefore, would presumably have been uninspired. :whacky:

 

[littlesheep]

Lets contrast these statements Shell we? First two are from Scripture You know “The Word of God.”

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me”.

Act 16:30, 31 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

And then this from a Pope.

DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH LUMEN GENTIUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HOLINESS POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964

Chapter two On the People of God

But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. But often men, deceived by the Evil One, have become vain in their reasonings and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, serving the creature rather than the Creator.(129) Or some there are who, living and dying in this world without God, are exposed to final despair. Wherefore to promote the glory of God and procure the salvation of all of these, and mindful of the command of the Lord, “Preach the Gospel to every creature”,(130) the Church fosters the missions with care and attention

HUMMM! Lets change Scripture to read

Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. Unless through no fault of your own you don’t hear of Me. Then just seeking My Father will do.

Act 16:30, 31 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And they said, “Believe sincerely in a god, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Seems a contradiction of Scripture to me. So who is right God or the Council? Just wondering?

PAX

Just a

littlesheep