G
Giver
Guest
bookgirl said:
Do you really think that He meant exalted here on earth???
- Status
Do you really think that He meant exalted here on earth???
A
all4one
Guest
David Zampino:
Blessings to you also, ALWith respect, I think that your statement is the epitome of exactly what you are attempting to decry.
You may very well be right. Pray for me.
I am a convert to the Catholic faith, after serving as an ordained minister in another Christian body. Just for the record:
a) I have read the Bible. In virtually every major English translation. I have also studied Hebrew and Greek as well as English translations of the Aramaic.
Then it is clearly not the words on the page but the spirit that hears them. Yes?b) I am sincere with myself. Which is why I had the integrity to walk away from my former denomination at great personal cost to myself and my family. (I’m not trying to “toot my own horn” here – many on this board could relate similar experiences.) Judging someone else’s level of sincerity is a dangerous thing to do.
I was in no way judging. I apologize if it came off that way. Please forgive me. It was simply another possibility knowing myself.
c) I am certainly not afraid to be wrong. The older I get, the more I realize how wrong I am about so many things!It was becoming convinced that I was wrong that led me to the Church.
Does this mean that you can’t be wrong again???d) Friend, none of us is gonna be 100% correct this side of eternity!
I couldn’t agree more (on the externals) but when I believe something (Someone)* I * know what* I * believe.It is clear from your posts, and those of your friends, that you really don’t know:
This would mean that you do. That’s kind of infallible-like but I think I know what you mean. I will pray for an open heart and mind and a fearless faith that will only acknowledge Truth. So far I’ve only heard from Catholics a club-like spirit of ‘we got it- you don’t’ and this is not the spirit of Christ. It’s more about the how then the what. ‘You will know them by their fruit’.
a) What the Catholic Church actually teaches,
I could always learn more
b) Basic Church History,
ditto
c) The Scriptures.
double ditto
If you wish to “proof-text” the Bible or the Catechism, it is certainly your right to do so. Gee, thanks.
Remember, though, there are Catholics on this forum who know the Bible far better than many Protestants, and who DO know their faith – many of them converts themselves.
I believe you. I’m not arguing that they don’t know there faith (although we both know 90% don’t), I’m saying the faith they know is in error. Thank you for you response.Blessings,
J
josephdavid
Guest
All4One,
You said: “I’m not arguing that they don’t know there faith (although we both know 90% don’t), I’m saying the faith they know is in error.”
Please provide us some bullet points on both issues were you come up with this statement.
Please?
Thank you,
You said: “I’m not arguing that they don’t know there faith (although we both know 90% don’t), I’m saying the faith they know is in error.”
Please provide us some bullet points on both issues were you come up with this statement.
Please?
Thank you,
B
bookgirl
Guest
No, not at all, but the actions He’s talking about take place on earth. You’re really confusing the issue here. You know that’s not even the point of my message.
D
Della
Guest
I really don’t know what you are aiming at here, but I was responding to your idea that one only needs to read the Bible with the guidance of the Holy Spirit to decide matters of faith and morals. So, I was asking, if you can do that why can’t Catholics or the Magisterium of the Catholic Church? After all, your only criteria can be met by anyone of good faith.
However, according to your method anything one doesn’t want to believe can easily be argued away and/or any Christian can disagree with you, and also in good faith, and would be right to say he is as able to interpret as you are.
Here is the Catholic understanding of biblical interpretation: Interpretation of the Bible in the Church. In order to get to the nitty-gritty of what we are talking about, I suggest you scroll down to the 3 methods of interpretation beginning with the Literal Sense, followed by the Spiritual Sense, and closing with the Fuller Sense.
J
josephdavid
Guest
Do your homework!!
1 Tim 2:1-2 - because Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5), many Protestants deny the Catholic belief that the saints on earth and in heaven can mediate on our behalf. But before Paul’s teaching about Jesus as the “one mediator,” Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why?
1 Tim 2:3 - because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ’s role as mediator.
1 Tim. 2:5 - therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).
1 Cor. 3:9 - God invites us to participate in Christ’s work because we are God’s “fellow workers” and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. The phrase used to describe “fellow workers” is “sunergoi,” which literally means synergists, or cooperators with God in salvific matters. Does God need fellow workers? Of course not, but this shows how much He, as Father, loves His children. God wants us to work with Him.
Mark 16:20 - this is another example of how the Lord “worked with them” (“sunergountos”). God cooperates with us. Out of His eternal love, He invites our participation.
Rom. 8:28 - God “works for good with” (the Greek is “sunergei eis agathon”) those who love Him. We work as subordinate mediators.
2 Cor. 6:1 - “working together” (the Greek is “sunergountes”) with him, don’t accept His grace in vain. God allows us to participate in His work, not because He needs our help, but because He loves us and wants to exalt us in His Son. It is like the father who lets his child join him in carrying the groceries in the house. The father does not need help, but he invites the child to assist to raise up the child in dignity and love.
Heb. 12:1 - the “cloud of witnesses” (nephos marturon) that we are surrounded by is a great amphitheatre of witnesses to the earthly race, and they actively participate and cheer us (the runners) on, in our race to salvation.
1 Peter 2:5 - we are a holy priesthood, instructed to offer spiritual sacrifices to God. We are therefore subordinate priests to the Head Priest, but we are still priests who participate in Christ’s work of redemption.
Rev. 1:6, 5:10 - Jesus made us a kingdom of priests for God. Priests intercede through Christ on behalf of God’s people.
James 5:16; Proverbs 15:8, 29 - the prayers of the righteous (the saints) have powerful effects. This is why we ask for their prayers. How much more powerful are the saints’ prayers in heaven, in whom righteousness has been perfected.
Matt. 5:44-45 - Jesus tells us to pray for (to mediate on behalf of) those who persecute us. God instructs us to mediate.
Matt. 17:1-3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30-31 – deceased Moses and Elijah appear at the Transfiguration to converse with Jesus in the presence of Peter, James and John (these may be the two “witnesses” John refers to in Rev. 11:3). Nothing in Scripture ever suggests that God abhors or cuts off communication between the living in heaven and the living on earth. To the contrary, God encourages communication within the communion of saints. Moses and Elijah’s appearance on earth also teach us that the saints in heaven have capabilities that far surpass our limitations on earth.
Matt. 26:53 – Jesus says He can call upon the assistance of twelve legions of angels. If Jesus said He could ask for the assistance of angel saints – and He obviously would not have been worshiping them in so doing – then so can we, who need their help infinitely more than Jesus, and without engaging in idolatry. And, in Matt. 22:30, Jesus says we will be “like angels in heaven.” This means human saints (like the angel saints) can be called upon to assist people on earth. God allows and encourages this interaction between his family members.
J
josephdavid
Guest
Cont…
Matt. 27:47,49; Mark 15:35-36 – the people believe that Jesus calls on Elijah for his intercession, and waits to see if Elijah would come to save Jesus on the cross.
Matt. 27:52-53 - at Jesus’ passion, many saints were raised and went into the city to appear and presumably interact with the people, just as Jesus did after His resurrection.
Mark 11:24 - Jesus says that whatever we ask in prayer, we will receive it. It is Jesus, and also we through Jesus, who mediate
John 2:3 - Jesus knew the wine was gone, but invites and responds to Mary’s intercession. God desires our lesser mediation and responds to it because He is a living and loving God.
John 2:5 - Mary intercedes on behalf of those at the wedding feast and tells them to do whatever Jesus tells them. Because Mary is our perfect model of faith, we too intercede on behalf of our brothers and sisters.
John 2:11 - in fact, it was Mary’s intercession that started Jesus’ ministry. His hour had not yet come, yet Jesus responds to Mary’s intercession. Even though He could do it all by Himself, God wants to work with His children.
Acts 12:7 – an angel strikes Peter on the side and wakes him up, freeing him from prison. The angel responds to Peter’s prayers.
Rom. 15:30 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for him. If we are united together in the one body of Christ, we can help each other.
2 Cor. 1:11 - Paul even suggests that the more prayers and the more people who pray, the merrier! Prayer is even more effective when united with other’s prayers.
2 Cor. 9:14 - Paul says that the earthly saints pray for the Corinthians. They are subordinate mediators in Christ.
2 Cor. 13:7,9 - Paul says the elders pray that the Corinthians may do right and improve. They participate in Christ’s mediation.
Gal. 6:2,10 - Paul charges us to bear one another’s burdens, and to do good to all, especially those in the household of faith.
Eph. 6:18 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for each other.
Eph. 6:19 - Paul commands that the Ephesians pray for him. If there is only one mediator, why would Paul ask for their prayers?
Rev. 1:4 – this verse shows that angels (here, the seven spirits) give grace and peace. Because grace and peace only come from God, the angels are acting as mediators for God.
Rev. 5:8 - the prayers of the saints (on heaven and earth) are presented to God by the angels and saints in heaven. This shows that the saints intercede on our behalf before God, and it also demonstrates that our prayers on earth are united with their prayers in heaven. (The “24 elders” are said to refer to the people of God – perhaps the 12 tribes and 12 apostles - and the “four living creatures” are said to refer to the angels.)
Rev. 6:9-11 – the martyred saints in heaven cry out in a loud voice to God to avenge their blood “on those who dwell upon the earth.” These are “imprecatory prayers,” which are pleas for God’s judgment (see similar prayers in Psalm 35:1; 59:1-17; 139:19; Jer. 11:20; 15:15; 18:19; Zech.1:12-13). This means that the saints in heaven are praying for those on earth, and God answers their prayers (Rev. 8:1-5). We, therefore, ask for their intercession and protection.
Rev. 8:3-4 – in heaven an angel mingles incense with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne of God, and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. These prayers “rise up” before God and elicit various kinds of earthly activity. God responds to his children’s requests, whether made by his children on earth or in heaven.
Matt. 27:47,49; Mark 15:35-36 – the people believe that Jesus calls on Elijah for his intercession, and waits to see if Elijah would come to save Jesus on the cross.
Matt. 27:52-53 - at Jesus’ passion, many saints were raised and went into the city to appear and presumably interact with the people, just as Jesus did after His resurrection.
Mark 11:24 - Jesus says that whatever we ask in prayer, we will receive it. It is Jesus, and also we through Jesus, who mediate
John 2:3 - Jesus knew the wine was gone, but invites and responds to Mary’s intercession. God desires our lesser mediation and responds to it because He is a living and loving God.
John 2:5 - Mary intercedes on behalf of those at the wedding feast and tells them to do whatever Jesus tells them. Because Mary is our perfect model of faith, we too intercede on behalf of our brothers and sisters.
John 2:11 - in fact, it was Mary’s intercession that started Jesus’ ministry. His hour had not yet come, yet Jesus responds to Mary’s intercession. Even though He could do it all by Himself, God wants to work with His children.
Acts 12:7 – an angel strikes Peter on the side and wakes him up, freeing him from prison. The angel responds to Peter’s prayers.
Rom. 15:30 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for him. If we are united together in the one body of Christ, we can help each other.
2 Cor. 1:11 - Paul even suggests that the more prayers and the more people who pray, the merrier! Prayer is even more effective when united with other’s prayers.
2 Cor. 9:14 - Paul says that the earthly saints pray for the Corinthians. They are subordinate mediators in Christ.
2 Cor. 13:7,9 - Paul says the elders pray that the Corinthians may do right and improve. They participate in Christ’s mediation.
Gal. 6:2,10 - Paul charges us to bear one another’s burdens, and to do good to all, especially those in the household of faith.
Eph. 6:18 - Paul commands the family of God to pray for each other.
Eph. 6:19 - Paul commands that the Ephesians pray for him. If there is only one mediator, why would Paul ask for their prayers?
Rev. 1:4 – this verse shows that angels (here, the seven spirits) give grace and peace. Because grace and peace only come from God, the angels are acting as mediators for God.
Rev. 5:8 - the prayers of the saints (on heaven and earth) are presented to God by the angels and saints in heaven. This shows that the saints intercede on our behalf before God, and it also demonstrates that our prayers on earth are united with their prayers in heaven. (The “24 elders” are said to refer to the people of God – perhaps the 12 tribes and 12 apostles - and the “four living creatures” are said to refer to the angels.)
Rev. 6:9-11 – the martyred saints in heaven cry out in a loud voice to God to avenge their blood “on those who dwell upon the earth.” These are “imprecatory prayers,” which are pleas for God’s judgment (see similar prayers in Psalm 35:1; 59:1-17; 139:19; Jer. 11:20; 15:15; 18:19; Zech.1:12-13). This means that the saints in heaven are praying for those on earth, and God answers their prayers (Rev. 8:1-5). We, therefore, ask for their intercession and protection.
Rev. 8:3-4 – in heaven an angel mingles incense with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne of God, and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. These prayers “rise up” before God and elicit various kinds of earthly activity. God responds to his children’s requests, whether made by his children on earth or in heaven.
J
josephdavid
Guest
cont…
Gen. 20:17 - God responds to Abraham’s intercession and heals Abimelech, and also his wife and slaves.
Gen. 27:29; Num. 24:9 - blessed be everyone who blesses you. If we bless others in prayer, we are also blessed.
Exodus 32:11-14, 30-34; 34:9; Num. 14:17-20; 21:7-9 - these are many examples of God’s response to Moses’ saintly intercession.
1 Sam. 12:23 - Samuel says that he would be sinning against God if he didn’t continue to intercede for the people of Israel.
1 Sam. 28:7-20 – the deceased prophet Samuel appears and converses with Saul, which is confirmed by Sirach 46:13,20).
1 Sam. 28:7; 1 Chron. 10:13-14 - Saul practiced necromancy. He used a medium, not God, to seek the dead and was therefore condemned. Saul’s practice is entirely at odds with the Catholic understanding of saintly mediation, where God is the source and channel of all communication, and who permits His children to participate in this power.
2 Chron. 30:27 - the prayers of the priests and Levites came before God’s holy habitation in heaven and were answered.
Tobit 12:12,15 - angels place Tobit and Sarah’s prayers before the Holy One. This teaches us that the angels are also our subordinate mediators. We pray to the angels to take up our prayers to God.
Job 42:7-9 - Job prayed for three friends in sin and God listened to Job as a result of these prayers.
Psalm 34:7 – the angel of the Lord delivers those who fear him.
Psalm 91:11 – God will give His angels charge of you, to guard you in all your ways.
Gen. 20:17 - God responds to Abraham’s intercession and heals Abimelech, and also his wife and slaves.
Gen. 27:29; Num. 24:9 - blessed be everyone who blesses you. If we bless others in prayer, we are also blessed.
Exodus 32:11-14, 30-34; 34:9; Num. 14:17-20; 21:7-9 - these are many examples of God’s response to Moses’ saintly intercession.
1 Sam. 12:23 - Samuel says that he would be sinning against God if he didn’t continue to intercede for the people of Israel.
1 Sam. 28:7-20 – the deceased prophet Samuel appears and converses with Saul, which is confirmed by Sirach 46:13,20).
1 Sam. 28:7; 1 Chron. 10:13-14 - Saul practiced necromancy. He used a medium, not God, to seek the dead and was therefore condemned. Saul’s practice is entirely at odds with the Catholic understanding of saintly mediation, where God is the source and channel of all communication, and who permits His children to participate in this power.
2 Chron. 30:27 - the prayers of the priests and Levites came before God’s holy habitation in heaven and were answered.
Tobit 12:12,15 - angels place Tobit and Sarah’s prayers before the Holy One. This teaches us that the angels are also our subordinate mediators. We pray to the angels to take up our prayers to God.
Job 42:7-9 - Job prayed for three friends in sin and God listened to Job as a result of these prayers.
Psalm 34:7 – the angel of the Lord delivers those who fear him.
Psalm 91:11 – God will give His angels charge of you, to guard you in all your ways.
S
St.Eric
Guest
Giver,
You take your verses out of context. He was pointing to the fact that our ultimate Father, I.e., God is in Heaven and not of this earth.The prohibition is not on calling people on this earth Father in the sense of an elder or Dad. I hope you also don’t take the “if your eye causes you to sin, then pluck it out…” literally or surely you are currently blind with no tongue, arms, or legs.
1 Corinthians 4:15 NIV
“Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus **I became your father ** through the gospel.”
Sounds like a Roman Catholic priest, doesn’t it?
You take your verses out of context. He was pointing to the fact that our ultimate Father, I.e., God is in Heaven and not of this earth.The prohibition is not on calling people on this earth Father in the sense of an elder or Dad. I hope you also don’t take the “if your eye causes you to sin, then pluck it out…” literally or surely you are currently blind with no tongue, arms, or legs.
1 Corinthians 4:15 NIV
“Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus **I became your father ** through the gospel.”
Sounds like a Roman Catholic priest, doesn’t it?
M
MrS
Guest
with emphasis on Roman Catholic. Other denomination have lots of good stuff… but they don’t have the apostolic succession.1 Corinthians 4:15 NIV
“Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.”
Sounds like a Roman Catholic priest, doesn’t it?
I wish some one would reprint the scriptures without chapter and verse… so our separated brethren would not take a single verse here and there out of the context.
But then again, that might provide us with less “work” to do as we learn, share and teach the Truth - not a something, but a Somebody, and His name is Jesus Christ.
G
Giver
Guest
I am sorry, there may have been some misunderstanding. I agree all Christians are given the Holy Spirit. I don’t agree that the Church hierarchy is more in touch with the Holy Spirit than the rest of the Church.
We all are responsible for our own souls and If the Holy Spirit tells us that a decision made by the Church hierarchy is wrong and after the hierarchy is made aware of what the Holy Spirit said and the hierarchy disagrees with what the Holy Spirit told us, then I believe any Christian should walk in their own relationship with God.
No matter who tells you anything about God, we should ask Jesus if it is right or wrong.
Giver
A
all4one
Guest
G
Giver
Guest
Let me share something with you. If I was in danger of committing a sin, and taking my eye out would save me from doing so, I would be thankful that I had the opportunity to take my eye out.Giver,
You take your verses out of context. He was pointing to the fact that our ultimate Father, I.e., God is in Heaven and not of this earth.The prohibition is not on calling people on this earth Father in the sense of an elder or Dad. I hope you also don’t take the “if your eye causes you to sin, then pluck it out…” literally or surely you are currently blind with no tongue, arms, or legs.
1 Corinthians 4:15 NIV
“Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.”
Sounds like a Roman Catholic priest, doesn’t it?
Giver
The only way anyone can know for sure what any passage of Scripture means is to ask Jesus.
M
MrS
Guest
and he gave the answer in Scripture… " he who hear you… HEARS ME, and the One Who Sent Me… "
even out of context there must be something there for you think about… please
J
javelin
Guest
The problem with your statement is the premise I bolded above is never true, at least when it comes to decisions regarding faith and morals. This is the whole reason for the Church! The Holy Spirit teaches Truth, which is unchanging and universal, so the Spirit cannot teach people (or churches) conflicting doctrine! All Truth is from God, and He must have given us a way to know it. History bears witness to the fact that thousands of well-intentioned, God-fearing, Jesus-loving people have earnestly studied the Bible and come up with conflicting interpretations. This cannot be if the Holy Spirit really guides us all to a proper understanding of Scripture.
The only other option is what the Church has always held – that the Holy Spirit guides our interpretation through the Church Jesus established on His apostles. Without the authoritative, infallible interpretation of the Church, what good is an infallible document?
Peace,
javelin
S
St.Eric
Guest
If what you infer is true you are truly a saint here on earth! YOu have never used your eyes to lust with or committ adultery in your heart, for example? You have never used your body for anything other than an insturment of Christly love? Maybe you are totally pure, I cannot judge.
S
St.Eric
Guest
So then, am I to infer that you do not go to church or bible studies? Just curious. If your quote above is true then why would anyone go listen to a sermon by a preacher? Why not just ask Jesus?
S
St.Eric
Guest
You are using a common protestant tactic here by not addressing the whole question. The real question was the “father” issue. I came up with scripture that supports the Roman Catholic practice and you skipped by it…
D
Della
Guest
All Christians have been given the Holy Spirit, but not all Christians have been given the charism of infallibility in deciding matters of faith and morals. Jesus gave that charism only to the Apostles and their successors not to all and sundry. We have this from Jesus himself, who promised the apostles and their successors the bishops, the magisterium of the Church: “He who hears you hears me” (Luke 10:16), and “Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven” (Matt. 18:18). So, yes, the Magisterium has what you and I don’t have–the charism of infallibility in deciding matters of faith and morals.
The Holy Spirit does not tell people such untruths. The Magisterium has never declared an untruth in matters of faith and morals. But, trusting in what we think is the voice of God, when we have no promise that each person will be infallible, is very dangerous. It has led to some pretty odd heresies, as well as to the splintering of Christianity into so many denominations it’s hard to keep up with them. According to your way of thinking each person is their own denomination. Not what Jesus said he came to do. He said, “I will establish my Church” not “I will create Lone Rangers for God.”
And deceive ourselves into thinking that what we want to believe/is comfortable for us to believe must be right because we think Jesus told us so? No thank you. Truth is truth and cannot be decided one person at a time. I’m not talking about one’s own devotional life or the will of God for individuals but about who determines right doctrine and dogma. Jesus promised the Church he established would do that, not you or me.
B
bookgirl
Guest
Does Jesus always give everybody the same answer? And if He doesn’t, how do you know who is right and who is wrong?
- Status