To Protestants: Why aren't you Catholic?

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The Virgin Mary and the saints are intercessors. Christ is the one Mediator who re-opened Heaven to men. Mary and Saints can intercede on our behalf. You already believe this if you have ever asked another person to pray for you or pray for any other intention. Why would you ask someone to pray (intercede) for you?

communion of saints
Eph 1:22-23 - he is head of the Church, which is His body
Eph 5:21-32 - Christ is the head of the Church, Savior of the body
Col 1:18, 24 - He is head of the body, the Church
1Cor 12:12-27 - if I suffer, all suffer; if I am honored, all rejoice
Rom 12:5 - we are one body in Christ, individual parts of one another
Eph 4:4 - one body, one Spirit, called to one hope
Col 3:15 - you were called in one body
Rom 8:35-39 - death cannot separate us from Christ
Rom 12:10 - love one another with mutual affection
1Thess 5:11 - encourage, build up one another
Gal 6:2 - bear one another’s burdens
Gal 6:10 - let us do good to all, especially those in family of faith

Intercessory Prayer of Saints
Rom 15:30 - join me by your prayers to God on my behalf
Col 4:3, 1Thess 5:25 - pray for us
2Thess 1:11 - we always pray for you
2Thess 3:1 - finally, brothers, pray for us
Eph 6:18-19 - making supplication for all the saints & for me
Tob 12:12 - angel presents Tobit & Sarah’s prayer to God
Ps 148 - David calls upon angels
Zech 1:12 – angel intercedes for Jerusalem
Mk 12:25, Mt 22:30 - men in heaven are as the angels
Rev 5:8 – those in heaven offer prayers of the holy ones to God
Mk 12:26-27 - he is God of the living, not of the dead
Mk 9:4 - Jesus seen conversing with Elijah & Moses
Lk 9:31 - Elijah & Moses aware of earthly events
Rev 6:9-11 - martyrs under altar want earthly vindication
Heb 12:1 - we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses
Lk 16:19-30 - departed rich man intercedes for brothers
Rev 20:4 - saw the souls of those who had been beheaded
Wis 3:1-6 - the souls of the just are in the hand of God
2Macc 15:7-16 – the departed Onias & Jeremiah pray for the Jews
Jas 5:16 Prayers of righteous man
1 Cor. 13:12 - I shall understand fully
1 John 4: 20-21 whoever loves God must love his brother
1 Cor 12:21 - parts of Christ’s Body cannot say to other parts, “I do not need you”.

1Tim 2:1-7 - offer prayers, petitions for all men
1Pet 2:5 - be a holy priesthood to offer sacrifices through Christ
Mk 10:18 - only God is good
Mt 25:23 - well done my good and faithful servant
Jn 10:11-16 - I am good shepherd; one flock I shepherd
Jn 21:15-16 - feed my lambs, tend my sheep
Eph 4:11 - He gave some as apostles…others as pastors
Heb 3:1, 7:24, 9:12-13 - Jesus eternal high priest; one sacrifice
Rev 1:6, 5:10 - He made us a kingdom of priests for God

Veneration of Saints
Jos 5:14 - Joshua fell prostrate in worship before angel
Dan 8:17 - Daniel fell prostrate in terror before Gabriel
Tob 12:16 - Tobiah & Tobit fall to ground before Raphael
Mt 18:10 - angels in heaven always behold face of God (we venerate
angels because of their great dignity, which comes form their union with God.
Saints also are united with God)
1Jn 3:2 - we shall be like him, we shall see him as he is
1Thess 1:5-8 - you become an example to all the believers
Heb 13:7 - remember leaders, consider/imitate their faith & life

Relics
2Kgs 13:20-21 - contact with Elisha’s bones restored life
Acts 5:15-116 - cures performed through Peter’s shadow
Acts 19:11-12 - cures through face cloths that touched Paul

Statues
Ex 25:18-19 - make two cherubim of beaten gold
Num 21:8-9 - Moses made bronze serpent & put on pole
1Kgs 6:23-29 - temple had engraved cherubim, trees, flowers
1Kgs 7:25-45 - temple had bronze oxen, lions, pomegranates

Mary
Lk 1:28, 30 - angel: "full of grace, found favor with God
Lk 1:42 - Elizabeth: “most blessed among women”
Lk 1:48 - Mary: “all generations will call me blessed”

Mother of God
Lk 1:43 - Elizabeth calls her “mother of my Lord” = God
Mt 1:23 - virgin bear a son, Emmanuel = “God is with us”
Lk 1:35 - child born will be called holy, the Son of God
Gal 4:4 - God sent his Son, born of a woman

The Assumption
Gn 5:24 (Hb 11:5) - Enoch taken to heaven without dying
2Kg 2:11 - Elijah assumed into heaven in fiery chariot
Mt 27:52 - many saints who had fallen asleep were raised
1Thess 4:17 - caught up to meet the Lord in the air
1Cor 15:52 - we shall be instantly changed at the last trumpet
Rom 6:23 - for the wages of sin is death
Rev 11:19-21 - ark in heaven = woman clothed in sun

Every one of these points is scriptural and I will provide a laundry list if so asked.

Kujo313- brother you are blind. You remind me of Saul. I pray your heart will be penetrated by God and the scales fall from your eyes. Peace be with you.
 
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St.Eric:
The Virgin Mary and the saints are intercessors. Christ is the one Mediator who re-opened Heaven to men. Mary and Saints can intercede on our behalf. You already believe this if you have ever asked another person to pray for you or pray for any other intention. Why would you ask someone to pray (intercede) for you?
I would want somebody LIVING praying for me.

Mary
Lk 1:28, 30 - angel: "full of grace, found favor with God
Lk 1:42 - Elizabeth: “most blessed among women”
Lk 1:48 - Mary: “all generations will call me blessed”

Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Many people follow Jim Jones and David Koresh and they called them “blessed”. Yet, they led hundreds of people astray.
Mary did say that all generations will call her “blessed”. So? Does that mean to worhsip her? She was the chosen one to fulfill the prophecy. The Old Testament does NOT say to worship, or lift up, the chosen virgin. Instead, she’s called a “sign”.
It also doesn’t mean "all generations will call me ‘Mom’ " , either.

Mother of God
Lk 1:43 - Elizabeth calls her “mother of my Lord” = God
Bible word for God would be “LORD”, all caps. By saying that Mary is the mother of God is saying that God had to be born, and born by a cosmic being, which Mary is not.
Mt 1:23 - virgin bear a son, Emmanuel = “God is with us”
Lk 1:35 - child born will be called holy, the Son of God
Gal 4:4 - God sent his Son, born of a woman
So does that mean to worship the woman as you would the Son? No way.

The Assumption

Rev 11:19-21 - ark in heaven = woman clothed in sun

Try Rev 12:1-2
The fact that the woman in Revelation 12:1-2 is clothed with the sun indicates that she is hidden - exactly what happens when the sun is in the constellation Virgo. When the sun is in Virgo you cannot see the stars that make up the constellation. Furthermore, that the sun and moon are together clearly indicates that John is describing a new moon. The only time the sun and the moon can be together is when there is a new moon, just as the only time a lunar eclipse can take place is with a full moon.

A new moon always marks the beginning of a new month on the Jewish calendar. Because the sun is in Virgo, the month must be Tishri/ Marchesvan, which is our September/October. When the full moon is at the head of Virgo, without the sun, it is Nisan and Passover. Therefore, John is being very specific with his descriptions of the signs.

The Lord has given us a sign that indicates that Israel’s trouble (pain of labor) is about to begin somewhere around the month of some future September/October when the sun and moon are in the constellation Virgo. The precise location of the solar eclipse is at Virgo’s feet in the ecliptic path of the sun and moon in the “Tail of the Dragon.”
Rev 12:1-2 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

In the Bible Old Testament a woman or wife represented Israel with God as the Husband. (Isaiah chapter 54. In the New Testament language a woman or bride represents the CHURCH with Christ as Bridegroom.

Now, in Rev 11 the CHURCH/Bride was taken away. So the woman in chapter 12 must be Israel, and the child is non other than Jesus Christ, as Israel gave birth to Jesus

Gen 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

Joseph was to rule over Israel (the other 11 sons of Jacob) while they were in Egypt. The sun and the moon and the eleven stars is in reference to the Nation Israel.

It makes perfect sense that the “woman” mentioned in Revelation is Israel. Yet, catholics will say it’s Mary. Even as our Lord turned people’s attention away from her, catholics turn back. No one person in the Old Testament who sacrificed a lamb ever mentioned the lamb’s mother.
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Now, in Rev 11 the CHURCH/Bride was taken away. So the woman in chapter 12 must be Israel, and the child is non other than Jesus Christ, as Israel gave birth to Jesus
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:confused: Isreal gave birth to Jesus?
For some reason fundamentalist Protestants looking for a female image in Revelation, prefer the scarlet woman of Revelation 17. Revelation 12 makes them squirm, and they strain to find another interpretation. The main two are:
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  1. The Woman in this Passage represents the Church. The twelve stars are the twelve Apostles.
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  1. The Woman represents Israel. The stars are the twelve tribes.
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BOTH INTERPRETATIONS SUFFER FROM SEVERAL MAJOR FLAWS.
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1st. If the Woman is taken to represent the Church, then we face the immediate paradox of the Church giving birth to Jesus! This is clearly nonsense.
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2nd If the Woman is taken as Israel, we have an exalted Israel. Yet Israel was not exalted at the time of Jesus’s birth. Most of Israel was astray.
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3rd. Neither interpretation is a simple, literal reading of the text. If Protestant scholars have agreed on one thing it is that we must look for the clear, obvious interpretation of a bible text. Who is the woman who gave birth to Jesus? Jesus’s Mother. Simple.
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4th. Both alternative interpretations are contextually wrong. For all the other figures in this passage represent individuals, not ideas or classes of people. The Child is clearly Jesus, the Dragon is clearly Satan, each star swept out of the sky is one of the rebel angels who followed Satan. Later in the passage, we find Michael and his angels, and also the Beast - the Antichrist. The Woman is the only figure in the passage who, according to some, is not the individual stated in the text, but a collective representation.
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5th. Conversely, when Israel, Christians or the Church appear elsewhere in Revelation, they do not appear as personifications. They appear in literal form, as groups of individuals. See Rev 7.4: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel; Rev 7.9: …a great multitude that no-one could count…; Rev 12.17: …the rest of her offspring - those who obey God’s commandments… Even where the Church appears as the Bride of Christ, and a female personification would be expected, we do not get one. Instead of appearing as a woman, the Church appears as a City - the new Jerusalem. Rev 21: 9-10.
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6th. The figures that appear in Revelation 12 are the same as those that appear in the proto-gospel of Genesis. (See Immaculate Conception ). Genesis 3:15. “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.” Satan is both the Serpent of Genesis, and the Dragon of Revelation. Jesus is the “seed” who will crush the serpent in Genesis, and the child who will rule with a rod of iron in Revelation. In both, He and His mother, the Woman, are at permanent enmity with the serpent. The Woman of Genesis 3 and Revelation 12 is the same. However no one suggests that the woman of Genesis 3 is Israel.
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7th. If there is any doubt as to what a symbolic personage in Revelation might represent, or if a veiled meaning is intended, that meaning is immediately explained in the text. The Lamb is defined as the Lord of Lords, the Dragon is Satan. The Heads of the Beast are Kings. However no such explanation is given with respect to the Woman, underlining that the obvious meaning is the one that is intended.
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8th. If we look at the reference to the Sun, Moon and Stars in this passage, we can compare it with Joseph’s dream in Genesis, which so angered his brothers. In the dream the Sun, Moon and Stars represented his father, Isaac, his mother, and his eleven brothers. Together with Joseph, this gives us the total of 12 stars which appear in the Revelation vision. Since Joseph and his brothers were the forebears of Israel, the Sun, Moon and stars can indeed be taken to represent Israel. BUT in Revelation the Sun, Moon and Stars are not the subjects of the Vision. They instead form the adornments of the woman. This indicates that although the Woman is linked with Israel, she is quite clearly NOT Israel.
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9th. The Woman of Revelation 12 is introduced as a great sign in Heaven. Where else in the bible can we see a Woman announced as a great sign. Look at Isaiah 7:14 “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son.” We can see that this is exactly the same sign as in Revelation 12, confirming that the Woman in both occurences is Mary.
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geocities.com/aprofaith/queen.htm
 
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kujo313:
I would want somebody LIVING praying for me.

The Saints (Mary included) ARE ALIVE. They are more ALIVE that you and I since they are in Heaven. :yup: If you believe Christ is the Saviour and God of the living- then you have to admit this. Through his crucifixtion, Christ destroyed death and made us alive through him. How can you believe one is “saved” and at the same time believe they are dead after they leave the physical world? True death only comes to thos who are damned to Hell.
Please don’t skim over this. I don’t see how you can deny that those who are saved from the lake of fire after the physical death are dead. You cannot. :nope:
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kujo313:
Obviously not to you since you made Mary a goddess and a mediatrix.
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As long as you persist in making these slanderous statements I am not going to sugar coat things. You are a fool to believe this and a bigot to promote this false belief. Please stop. You sound like a broken record and the abscence of IQ and scholarly inquiry is glaring since you come back to the same, tired, accusations. 😛
 
Kujo,

Does your church teach astrology? You make it sound like that is one thing you believe in. Your credibility keeps sliding down a slippery slope. I am sensing you are at the point of grasping at straws.
 
Roman_Catholic said:
:confused: Isreal gave birth to Jesus?

geocities.com/aprofaith/queen.htm
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Did not Jesus come from Israel? Is not Israel “God’s chosen people”? Even if they are scattered abroad?

Did He not change people’s focus on her when He said “rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”

I guess Jesus must’ve changed His mind within Scripture.

Is ONLY Mary sitting on Jesus’ throne with Him? Did He NOT say “he who overcomes”?

There are “experts” on both sides who’ll back us up. The red letters, and the actions of the first disciples, do not back you up.
 
“In vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.” “Laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men.” “Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition.”
Again. The Bible teaches us the duty of reading and searching the Scriptures. The Lord Jesus Himself said, “Search the Scriptures”;
The true faith teaches us that every man is bound to judge for himself as to the meaning of Scripture. “Prove all things, hold fast that which is good.” “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.” But the Council of Trent decrees, that “no one confiding in his own judgment shall dare to wrest the sacred Scriptures to his own sense of them contrary to that which is held by holy mother Church, whose right it is to judge of the meaning.” If any one disobeys this decree he is to be punished according to law.

Scripture teaches us most abundantly that Christ is the only head of the Church. God gave Him to be the head over all things to the Church, which is His body; but RC’S teach that the pope is the head of the Church on earth. “The pope is the head of all heads, and the prince, moderator, and pastor of the whole Church of Christ, which is under him,” says Benedict XIV; and the Douay catechism, taught in all Papal schools, says, “He who is not in due connection and subordination to the pope must needs be dead, and cannot be counted a member of the Church.”

Scripture teaches us that the wages of sin is death, and “that whoever shall keep the law, and yet offend in one point, is guilty of all.” “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.” But Popery teaches that there are some sins which do not deserve the wrath and curse of God, and that venial sins do not bring spiritual death to the soul.

The Bible teaches us that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law, and that we are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. But Popery denounces this doctrine.
The Council of Trent asserted that whosoever should affirm that we are justified by the grace and favor of God was to be accursed, and so all those who hold that salvation is not by works, but by grace.

Scripture teaches us to confess sin to God only. “Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight.” “Every one of us shall give account of himself to God.” “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins.” But RC’S deny this, and say that sacramental confession to a priest is necessary to salvation, and that any one who should denounce the practice of secret confessions as contrary to the institution and command of Christ, and a mere human invention, is to be accursed.

Scripture teaches us, again, that God only can forgive sins, and that the minister’s duty is simply to announce His forgiveness. “Repentance and remission of sins” was to be preached in His name among all nations. “God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.” He commanded us to preach to the people, that “through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.” The Council of Trent asserts, on the contrary, whosoever shall affirm that the priest’s absolution is not a judicial act, but only a ministry to declare that the sins of the penitent are forgiven, or that the confession of the penitent is not necessary in order to obtain absolution from the priest, let him be accursed.
 
AND…
Scripture teaches us that no man is perfectly righteous, and certainly that none can do more than his duty to God. “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves.” “In thy sight shall no man living be justified.” “When ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.” The Council of Trent, on the contrary, asserts that the good works of the justified man, his fasts, alms, and penances, really deserve increase of grace and eternal life, and that God is willing, on account of His most pious servants, to forgive others. It teaches that a man may do more than is requisite, and may give the overplus of his good works to another.

Scripture teaches us that faith in Christ removes sin and its guilt, “that the Lamb of God taketh away the sin of the world,” that by His death Christ put away our sins, that “the blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth us from all sin.” But RC’S teach that the venial sins of believers have to be expiated by a purgatory after death, and that the prayers of the faithful can help them. The Creed of Pope Pius IV contains the clause: “I constantly hold that there is a purgatory, and that the souls detained therein are helped by the suffrages of the faithful.”

Scripture teaches us that “by one offering He hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified,” that He was once offered to bear the sins of many. But RC’S assert, on the contrary, that in each of the endlessly repeated masses in its innumerable churches all over the world there is offered to God “a true, proper, and propitiatory sacrifice for the living and the dead.”

Scripture, teaches us that the marriage of the ministers of Christ is a lawful and honorable thing. Peter was a married man; Paul asserts his liberty to marry, and says that a bishop must be the husband of one wife, having his children in subjection with all gravity, and that the deacons also must be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. RC’S, on the other hand, teach “that the clergy may not marry, and that marriage is to them a pollution.”

Scripture says, “Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve.” Barnabas and Paul with horror forbade the crowds to worship them, and the angel similarly forbade John, saying, “See thou do it not.” RC’S enjoin the worship both of angels and saints and their relics. “The saints reigning together with Christ are for us, and their relics are to be venerated.”

The Bible again teaches that images are not to be worshipped. “Thou shalt not bow down to them, nor serve them.” “I am the Lord: My glory will I not give to another, neither My praise to graven images.” But RC’S teach her rotaries to say, “I most firmly assert, that the images of Christ, and of the mother of God ever virgin, and also of the of the other saints, are to be had and retained, and that due honor and veneration are to be given to them.”
And above all, Scripture teaches us that there is one God, and one Mediator between God and man, the Man Christ Jesus, neither is there salvation in any other. But RC’S teach that there are other mediators in abundance besides Jesus Christ, that the Virgin Mary and the saints are such. “The saints reigning together with Christ offer prayers to God for us.”
 
myfavoritmartin said:
“In vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.” “Laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men.” “Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition.”
Again. The Bible teaches us the duty of reading and searching the Scriptures. The Lord Jesus Himself said, “Search the Scriptures”;
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The Scriptures that the Bible and Jesus were referring to is NOT the New Testament!
ALL* references to Scripture in the Bible are toward the Old Testament Scriptures. The NT didn’t even exist yet! Paul tells Timothy that he knew the Scriptures from his childhood and Jesus is stressing the fact that He fulfills the OT prophecies. Furthermore, “Word of God” does NOT = the Bible! BUT, the Bible is the Word of God. There’s a difference. God’s Word, first and foremost, is a Person…Jesus Christ. It is also His teachings which are found in both Scripture and Tradition.

*Some of Paul’s writings were apparently considered Scripture, BUT the only person who had the audacity to make such a claim was, guess who? PETER!
The true faith teaches us that every man is bound to judge for himself as to the meaning of Scripture.
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Not true. Private interpretation is expressly forbidden throughout the Scriptures.
 
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kujo313:
Did He not change people’s focus on her when He said “rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”
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You already know the answer to this. He says that she is to be honored because she said yes to God, not simply because she is biologically related to Him. That passage is not a rebuke of Mary but a very loving acknowledgement by her Son.
I guess Jesus must’ve changed His mind within Scripture.
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No, you are just reading the passage as a rebuke, which it is not.
Is ONLY Mary sitting on Jesus’ throne with Him? Did He NOT say “he who overcomes”?
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No one said Mary is sitting on Jesus’ throne.
There are “experts” on both sides who’ll back us up. The red letters, and the actions of the first disciples, do not back you up.
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You’ll have to actually give evidence for this argument. So far you have not. Did you think you had?
 
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myfavoritmartin:
The Lord Jesus Himself said, “Search the Scriptures”;
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Book, Chapter, Verse please.

(Note: favoritemartin did not say that Jesus Himself said "ONLY search the scriptures.)
 
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