To Protestants: why do you do this?

[Delphinus85]

Hi,
As a born again christian in a non-denom church–probably similar to what you grew up in, I would ask catholics the same exact thing. Catholics do the same exact thing to protestants.

BTW, I do not convince catholics to leave their church either. If they ask me questions about my church or want to visit, I would never turn them away. I have a bible study in my house with 2 catholics that go to their respective churches. They have come to events at my church, but I have never asked them to leave theirs. God will lead them where He wants them to be.

This is good to hear. I have the opposite problem. My husband and I go to a home-based bible study, where the leader has, on several occasions, made stabs at us for our faith, made stabs at our church, and allows catholic bashing from some of the non-christians. As you can imagine, we don’t go that much anymore…

 

[po18guy]

I personally think the devil must be laughing his head off. He is convincing Christians to witness to Catholics, who are fellow Christians, instead of pagans who are lost in their sins and don’t know Jesus. Tragic.

Amen! We live in the kingdom of the evil one. He has relentlessly attacked the One Church since Christ founded it. He even vainly (of course!) tried to tempt Christ out of founding His church. Over the centuries, he has inspired many to shatter the Body of Christ into more than 10,000/20,000/30,000 (?) pieces while his vile body of evil remains unified.

He has indeed succeeded in getting Christian to argue with Christian, rather than combatting his evil. He uses the the Big Lie to incite conflict among those opposed to him, leading good Christians to doubt the Catholic Church. Is it jealousy over losing souls to Christ? This is war, as Paul suggested, saying that he had fought the good fight. And the struggle continues. But, we continue to call all to unity in Christ. Anything else is doing the evil one’s work.

Christ’s peace, brothers and sisters.

 

[Teflon93]

The real question is why Protestants think it is sufficient that Catholics no longer be Catholics, even if they do not belong to their particular atomic community.

Here in the Bible Belt, there is some significant poaching between Protestant communities, indeed, between congregations within the community.

The operating assumption for many evangelicals seems to be, “If you’re not in the pew next to me, you’re not a Christian.”

 

[Mannyfit75]

However I don’t see much of a difference except perhaps in nuance between Protestants calling Catholics the whore of Babylon and Catholics calling Protestants heretics. Didn’t they use to burn heretics?

Because they are heretics back then. They teach doctrine contrary to Orthodox form of Christianity. They are still maybe consider to be such, but such term would not seem fitting in our time.

Second Vatican Council changed all that. However, I see more Anti-Catholic material from Protestants. The Omega Ministries by James White, not to mention CARM, CINC, and other Protestant Christians who specifically target Catholics to leave their faith. I rarely find any Catholic material that label Protestants as the whore of Babylon. I have come across Apologetic sources defending the Catholic faith.

Protestantism itself is just man-made religion. I do believe the theology of Protestantism is flawed. The diverse 33,000 denomination attest to that. Some Protestants at length will claim that Catholics aren’t Christians. I rarely hear that from Catholics.

 

[guanophore]

However I don’t see much of a difference except perhaps in nuance between Protestants calling Catholics the whore of Babylon and Catholics calling Protestants heretics. Didn’t they use to burn heretics?

In most cases, this term is misused on Protestants. A heretic is one who knew and embraced the truth, then abandonded it. Most Protestants don’t know any better, so cant qualify as heretics.

 

[Nick_Jones]

Hi Cat,

I think you are trying to have it both ways. You want to believe that the RCC is the same (Christian) religion as the Protestant one; it is only practiced differently. But you seem to admit that it is a different religion by using the word, “converted.”

So why do YOU feel it is necessary to try to persuade Catholics that their Church is in error? Are you getting some kind of reward in heaven for this? Can’t you just accept Catholics as fellow Christians who practice their faith differently than you do and rejoice with them?

Yet in spite of all this, I and my husband converted to Catholicism on April 10, 2004.

If the RC religion is the same religion as the Protestant one, and if all you’re doing differently now is “practicing” it differently, why did you feel that you “converted”?

 

[mercygate]

Hi Cat,

I think you are trying to have it both ways. You want to believe that the RCC is the same (Christian) religion as the Protestant one; it is only practiced differently. But you seem to admit that it is a different religion by using the word, “converted.”

This is an important technical point. From the Catholic point of view, we whose Christianity rejects the Church Jesus Himself founded are definitely in a state that requires conversion.

When I came into the Catholic Church, I was constantly reminding people that I was technically not a “convert.” But, of course, in a profound sense, I was very much a convert. That leap to embrace the discipline of the Church is like Neil Armstrong’s comment about walking on the moon. “One small step . . . One giant leap.”

 

[Writer]

This is a very important point. Conversion should be a coming to, not a turning from. It is growth, not rejection. There is much in your former belief that provides a valuable emphasis for our community.

Right on! I refer to it as “enrichment” whenever possible and not “conversion”. I understand the point made in previous posts, however, and have no objection to the “converted” term when understood in appropriate context.

 

[Memaw]

In that case Catholics would have their own Jack Chicks, their own anti-Protestant publishing houses and websites, calling Protestantism the great whore and the beast. I haven’t run across these Catholic equivalents of the anti-Catholic world within Protestantism.

I agree, Catholics DO NOT make up lies about protestants, at least I have never known any to. We do know that the Catholic Church has the FULLness of the TRUTH, even if some Catholics don’t live up to that TRUTH. I wish with all my heart that all christians could know the fullness of the Catholic Faith and have the Awesome benefit of all the Sacraments. I pray as Jesus did that we would all be ONE in HIM. I think many of these anti-catholic lies were spread so that protestants could try to justify their breaking away from the Catholic Church. and they have continued to grow throughout the past 500 years. A psychiatrist once told me that many people run others down in order to make themselves look better. I would ask them to study the 8th Commandment and see if what they are doing is right by God.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

What I want to know is why Protestants try to convince Catholics that our “religion” is false and that we need to “become Christians?”

First I want to say growing up under the tuteledge of people like Bright it is NO wonder you see all as one happy family, but friend understand the reason this evangelising is done is that we understand your justification to begin by “baptism” and we see biblical justification begining in “faith” …
Your church teaches justification is a progression in which God’s grace is poured into the sinner’s heart, making them more and more righteous. During this process, it is the sinner’s responsibility to preserve and increase that grace by various good works. It seems in opposition to scripture to us that you believe the means by which justification is firstly received is not faith, rather baptism. And that justification is forfeited whenever one does a mortal sin.
In the teaching of the Roman Church works are necessary both to begin and to continue justification, we find this opposing scripture.
Such as in Galatians

 

[Genesius61]

Since we’re all comparing experiences, I had been a Protestant for over 40 yrs before finally being received in Easter of 2005 (also a JPII… ). I’m sure I would have been received in sooner had it not been for the severe Leukemia episode I experienced (of which I am in process of writing a book about entitled, “A Journey Of Miracles”).

Anyway, having said all that I agree w/ the sentiment that we should not go out of our way to try to ‘convert’ anyone. In my experience it has always been up to the Holy Spirit to do the work.

In all the cases of converts I know (and I know many), I have never heard of anyone converting because some Catholic went out and pressured them. *They (I also) *were always the ones initiating the inquiries.

If someone inquires of me why I ‘went backwards’ or just seems curious about Catholicism I will share w/ them what I know for informational purposes. If they get hot and bothered about it I just simply remind them that I am simply providing information to their question(s). If they don’t agree that is their perogative. After that I leave it up to the Holy Spirit.

I have had many opportunities to share my Catholic faith in that manner w/ no fear of them becoming kindling wood. In fact, I have even had opportunites to share my Leukemia testimony & some songs (I also have an album my brother helped me produce) in both Catholic & Protestant communities.

In summary, I guess I’m just saying that I’m not so sure it’s OUR job to ‘convert’ people. That is the role of the Holy Spirit. Our ‘job’ is to provide information and prayer. Godbless.

 

[po18guy]

In my experience it has always been up to the Holy Spirit to do the work. In all the cases of converts I know (and I know many), I have never heard of anyone converting because some Catholic went out and pressured them. *They (I also) *were always the ones initiating the inquiries. In summary, I guess I’m just saying that I’m not so sure it’s OUR job to ‘convert’ people. That is the role of the Holy Spirit. Our ‘job’ is to provide information and prayer. Godbless.

Amen, and Amen! Our job is to make ourselves available, to submit to the Holy Spirit, and let Him do the work, giving Him the credit, to avoid the sin and error of pride.

How many incredibly brilliant posts have we seen that “should have” converted even the most fervent non-believer, yet failed? How many converts claim that the Holy Spirit had no role in the process? None.

Pray for them. The influence of the Holy Spirit will accomplish the rest.

Christ’s peace, and a Spirit-filled Triduum to all.

 

[Cling2Cross]

First a brief background. I was evangelical Protestant from childhood until age 47. I grew up in a Conference Baptist church under some of the most famous evangelicals in the U.S. (Evelyn Christenson, Gary Smalley, Irwin Lutzer, Bill Bright, etc.–these people were either on staff at our church or frequent guest speakers at our church).

I was extremely active in my churches, usually involved in something involving my church at least 5-6 days/nights per week.

So I know evangelical Protestantism well. That means, of course, that I know my Bible well. I’ve not only read and studied through the entire Bible many times, but also been involved in Bible studies all of my life, usually at least two-three per week.

Yet in spite of all this, I and my husband converted to Catholicism on April 10, 2004.

We are extremely joyful in our Church and love being Catholic Christians.

What I want to know is why Protestants try to convince Catholics that our “religion” is false and that we need to “become Christians?”

When I was Protestant, I never did this. I accepted Catholics as true Christians.

I read Jack T. Chick’s tracts about Catholicism and realized that they were fiction. I still liked a lot of the other Jack T. Chick tracts (Somebody Loves You is excellent.) But I didn’t go along with everything JTC said or wrote.

I read other Protestant apologies against Catholicism, and I never believed them. I knew Catholics and I knew that the stuff in those apologies wasn’t true.

I didn’t go after Catholics. If someone told me they were a Catholic, I would ask, “So you’re a Christian?” and if they said “yes,” I was cool with that. I didn’t try to talk them out of Catholicism and explain the “truth” of Protestantism.

If a Catholic didn’t know Jesus, THEN I would try to talk to them about their faith. But I didn’t try to persuade them to give up Catholicism, I just tried to persuade them to embrace the Jesus their Church proclaims.

From what I understand, the Rev. Billy Graham never tried to talk Catholics out of their church. Neither did Dr. Bill Bright (I know this from personal experience–when the “I Found It!” campaign was done in our city, three Catholic churches were part of it! Isn’t that nifty?!)

So why do YOU feel it is necessary to try to persuade Catholics that their Church is in error? Are you getting some kind of reward in heaven for this? Can’t you just accept Catholics as fellow Christians who practice their faith differently than you do and rejoice with them?

I personally think the devil must be laughing his head off. He is convincing Christians to witness to Catholics, who are fellow Christians, instead of pagans who are lost in their sins and don’t know Jesus. Tragic.

Because of the teachings I would say…

Justification being a process…
Saying infants are born again at baptism…
Indication that one can lose salvation…
Worshipping Mary…yes…praying to her is worship…
Doctrines like purgatory…
Facination with ritual and statues…

And, included in this is the confession of most Catholics at their door (during evangelism) that they are banking on their own righteousness for meriting salvation. Again, I am not saying that you do this…I am simply giving my own testimony as to what I find in the real world. Honestly, many in Protestant circles need to hear the gospel as well. Being “churchy” means nothing without having salvation - being justified by faith and undergoing sanctification through to glorification.

 

[Syele]

So why do YOU feel it is necessary to try to persuade Catholics that their Church is in error?

I don’t that is not why I’m here at CAF.

I WILL try to convince them they are wrong when they say things that I believe would exclude them from Christianity (Mostly stuff that Catholics shouldn’t believe anyhow) or I try to point it out if they are wording things in a way that would mislead a protestant into thinking weird things about Catholics.

 

[pjn6444]

I am also a convert to the Catholic Church (2006) first of the Benedict XVI catholics you might say. I have an interesting setup. My uncle is an Evangelical Baptist minister. I actually had a discussion with him the other day. He was trying to convince me to not stay with the Catholic Church. He thought it was too worldly. He thought that the organized church lost its way around the 2nd or 3rd century. Of course I throw some of the good old defenses of the Church. Such as that they rely on the Bible but the Catholic church by the power of the Holy Spirit finalized the canon. Of course he says that the Holy Spirit was just working with what he had, etc. He is in the Real Presence is idolatry camp. I agree with him on that part. IF the real presence is false then it is idolatry. Of course I believe it to be true. He of course compares it to the golden calf incident. He says the Church is too Roman. As in Roman Empire. But with all of it they believe in Once Saved Always Saved. Since when I was younger I accepted Jesus Christ as my personal lord and savior in one of those Protestant ways I figured I was good. If they’re right I am saved, and if the Catholic Church is right I am on the right track to being saved. I figure I am immune to both sides of the argument.

 

[Junebug999]

…rather, the Bible clarified everything the Church teaches (and this was a Protestant version of the Bible that I had read!).

AMEN!! It was the Protestant Bible that showed me the way to the Catholic Church!

 

[guanophore]

First I want to say growing up under the tuteledge of people like Bright it is NO wonder you see all as one happy family, but friend understand the reason this evangelising is done is that we understand your justification to begin by “baptism” and we see biblical justification begining in “faith” …
Your church teaches justification is a progression in which God’s grace is poured into the sinner’s heart, making them more and more righteous. During this process, it is the sinner’s responsibility to preserve and increase that grace by various good works. It seems in opposition to scripture to us that you believe the means by which justification is firstly received is not faith, rather baptism. And that justification is forfeited whenever one does a mortal sin.
In the teaching of the Roman Church works are necessary both to begin and to continue justification, we find this opposing scripture.
Such as in Galatians

I do not think this is a accurate representation of Catholic soteriology. It is true that we believe justification begins at baptism, but this is not separated from faith. Those unable to make a profession of faith are baptized based on the faith of the parents/godparents. It is also true that Catholics believe that God wants to BECOME the righteousness of God in Christ that has been declared at baptism. This transformation (in the East called Theosis) of becoming more like Him occurs by His grace, but does require our cooperation. We are to " hold true to what we have attained." Phil 3:16

Catholics do believe that grace is preserved and increased when we walk in the say that God has set forth before us. Catholics do not separate the grace of justification from the grace of sanctification. One who is justified will bear fruit that befits repentance.

"… **make every effort **to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall; 2 Peter 1:5-10

Salvation is not a “passive” process where God does all the work. “Working together with him, then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain.” 2 Cor 6:1-2

The sunergesis (working together) with grace is not work of the flesh (originating from the will or ability of man) but "the Lord Jesus, … working in you that which is pleasing in his sight,…Heb 13:20-21

In Him, with Him, and Through Him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit.

The Church nowhere teaches or implies that one “loses justification” with mortal sin. On the contrary, the Church teaches that Baptism leaves an indelible mark on the soul which cannot be lost. In truth, those who fall into moral sin fall into a state which is “worse” than the unregenerated state.

Luke 11:26
“…the last state of that man becomes worse than the first.”

20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them." 2 Peter 2:19-21

 

[guanophore]

Because of the teachings I would say…

Justification being a process…

Why is this so difficult? Don’t you think that sanctification is a process?

Saying infants are born again at baptism…

Do you not see this in scripture?

Indication that one can lose salvation…

It would be more accurate to say that Catholics do not presume to have attained it yet. With humility and awareness of our frailty, we recognize that, so long as we are in this world, we will be subject to the temptations of the world, the flesh, and the devil. Let the one who thinks he stands take heed, lest he fall!

Worshipping Mary…yes…praying to her is worship…

This is just not true. It is an unfortunate outcome of language. Here in the West, to entreat (ask/request) is translated prayer, and in America, this has a very narror understanding. I have some court involvement as a result of my work, and I just read a court document that states,

“the plaintiff thereofre prays the court…”

No one is worshipping the court! It is an older understanding of the word. When we pray, we ask the intercession of those who have gone to their rest in the hope of rising again. Catholicism teaches that worship of anyone or anything other than God is idolatry.

Doctrines like purgatory…

Do you believe you are presently perfect and pure before God? Nothing impure can enter heaven. How does one get from being “declared” clean to actually “being” clean?

Facination with ritual and statues…

“Statues” are not Catholic doctrine. It is true that some Catholics have a fascination with items or relics, but this is related to their personal devotions. It is not required of anyone to even have statues.

Most Catholics due have a fascination with ritual. Human beings are sensual creatures, and it pleases us to bring our senses into worship. Yesterday, they lit the censor, and filled the sanctuary with the insense. It was delightful! We want for our prayers to rise up to God like the smoke of insense.

Protestants have rituals too, they are just different. Every time a congregation meets, and follows the same procedures each week, a ritual is created. Catholic rituals are 2000 years old, and tend to be more intricate, perhaps.

And, included in this is the confession of most Catholics at their door (during evangelism) that they are banking on their own righteousness for meriting salvation. Again, I am not saying that you do this…I am simply giving my own testimony as to what I find in the real world. Honestly, many in Protestant circles need to hear the gospel as well. Being “churchy” means nothing without having salvation - being justified by faith and undergoing sanctification through to glorification.

I agree with you on this point. I think many Catholics have a poor understanding of justification, and what it means to be saved by grace, through faith.

 

[johnnydigit]

Who would have thought that people of different denoms who treat each other with a little common courtesy and respect could study the bible together without one of them showing up with a strapped-on a bomb?

studying the Bible together is fine and dandy until you reach certain verses which are like land mines, e.g. Matt 16:18. so what do you do, gloss over hundreds of controversial verses to keep the peace? imo, Matt 16:18 is key to Christ’s Church, and to gloss over it is picking and choosing only fluffy things you like…

“let’s just read and talk about love!” right…

 

[RodneyJ]

Just through the first couple of pages, I see a lot of 'BUT YOU GUYS DO THIS!!!11! and I don’t think it’s helping anybody.