To The Jews: Suppose You Found Out Christ Truly Exists...

[Valke2]

Of course God used a practicing Jewish rabbi to teach a revelation - only His revelation was solely for the benefit of non-Jews and not for His fellow Jews as well? Talk about doublethink!

If God meant Jesus only for the gentiles stands to reason he’d have made Him a gentile as well.

I’m just playing “what if” here. Besides, it is not outside the realm of possiblity that God provides different paths

 

[LilyM]

I’m just playing “what if” here. Besides, it is not outside the realm of possiblity that God provides different paths

It’s not impossible but it would be an extraordinarily problematic and counterproductive way of doing things - to send a Jew to Gentiles and yet make His revelation specifically non-applicable to Jews? Does that mean Jesus’ teachings didn’t even apply to Himself? What a nonsensical notion.

I don’t think God who gave us common sense and reason would be quite so utterly perverse.

 

[Eden]

Now WHERE did you get THAT “understanding”? My mother converted to Judaism when she was 20 years old, and I made it very clear, many times, that she NEVER badmouthed her former faith. I stated that in threads about people who convert out of Catholicism…that she was one of the very few people I ever knew who did NOT see fit to badmouth her former religion, because many people I have known who switched from one faith to another, DID badmouth their former religion.

Well, saying that we have funny “legends” about the rain on Good Fridays is not exactly a compliment (nor accurate).

And no, I did not originally come here to attack the RCC; I came here after finding this site via Google. It was in March, and I was researching the background of certain Holy Week legends my mother had told me about, from her childhood. The websearcj grew out of a family session where we were reminiscing about things our mother had once told us.

As for a “vendetta” against Catholicism, I have none. I do feel very disappointed, because the Catholics forced my mother’s family to convert to Catholicism when they were in Spain and Italy, thereby causing her family to retain some Jewish customs, but basically not even knowing they were Jews until a family genealogist discovered it centuries later (my mother converted to Orthodox Judaism in 1944, and so it amazed her to learn 40 years later that she was Jewish all along!)

Your hostility about the treatment of your ancestors in the Spanish Inquisition is well-documented here, so a quick search by anyone would support my conclusions.

In fact, because of my 30 year involvement in Jewish-Christian ecumenical organizations, I had always had very positive experiences with Catholics as an adult. This is why it especially pained me to learn, in the 1980s, of my maternal family’s sad history as conversos from Spain. I had always had great regard for the Catholic church (even though I had known about the Spanish and other Inquisitions), and learning of my own family’s role in it brought it all “home” to me in a personal way.

Considering that we all have millions of ancestors, the ones with whom we chose to identify says a lot about our own mindset. I have all kinds of interesting ancestors on my tree and many of them were victims, and probably many were the victimizers (whatever that really means hundreds of years down the line). The same would be true of your own tree. I’m sure that you had some ancestors who were involved in some way in the Spanish Inquisition from the other side, too, and perhaps Catholic Spaniards who did great things to help the Jewish people. History and man’s abuses against man are a little more complex than your converso story would lead us to believe. The fact that you identify so strongly with it, just illustrates your own opinions against the Church.

But you have GREATLY misunderstood my situation. In fact I don’t even know where you got all that from, but it certainly was not from reading my older posts.

Maybe what you should do it research my OLDER posts, from when I first arrived here…in fact if you read them going from oldest to newer, you will see how things went.

I’ve seen the posts I’ve seen. They speak for themselves.

 

[Sepharad]

Well, saying that we have funny “legends” about the rain on Good Fridays is not exactly a compliment (nor accurate).

I’ve seen the posts I’ve seen. They speak for themselves.

I never called the stories my mother told me “funny”. In fact, if you really had read my earliest posts, you’d remember that I told a very touching story about her childhood belief that it always rained on Good Friday. Even some of the others on the thread said it was a very sweet story.

You have really twisted what I said, and my mother would be the first to correct you if she were still alive.

 

[Eden]

I never called the stories my mother told me “funny”. In fact, if you really had read my earliest posts, you’d remember that I told a very touching story about her childhood belief that it always rained on Good Friday. Even some of the others on the thread said it was a very sweet story.

You have really twisted what I said, and my mother would be the first to correct you if she were still alive.

Then I apologize for misrepresenting her. And I can’t explain where your modus operandi on CA has come from. It just isn’t clever to gape at and mock old Catholic ladies and discuss it on an internet forum. That’s someone’s grandmother, for Heaven’s sakes. I can’t believe how unkind that is! We surely have differing values. I respect the elderly, even if I disagree with their beliefs.

 

[Sepharad]

Then I apologize for misrepresenting her. And I can’t explain where your modus operandi on CA has come from. It just isn’t clever to gape at and mock old Catholic ladies and discuss it on an internet forum. That’s someone’s grandmother, for Heaven’s sakes. I can’t believe how unkind that is! We surely have differing values. I respect the elderly, even if I disagree with their beliefs.

Actually, it was my husband who was more shocked than I was (he originally came from a Yankee Baptist background, prior to his conversion to Judaism, and had not had much exposure to Catholics.) I was actually used to seeing that sort of thing, because I grew up in a heavily ethnic Italian, Polish and Jewish neighborhood, where Catholics had street processions with money being pinned to clothing draped around statues, and elderly ladies showing much attention to the statues (the only way I can state it so you won’t get offended!)

So to me, it was actually something I’d seen before.

 

[Valke2]

It’s not impossible but it would be an extraordinarily problematic and counterproductive way of doing things - to send a Jew to Gentiles and yet make His revelation specifically non-applicable to Jews? Does that mean Jesus’ teachings didn’t even apply to Himself? What a nonsensical notion.

I don’t think God who gave us common sense and reason would be quite so utterly perverse.

But you are ignoring the fact that 2 billion or whatever the number is are christians. So I guess it really isn’t a nonsensical notion.

 

[Eden]

Some things in Judaism look odd to the outsider, as well. Case in point:

youtube.com/watch?v=Ej13paGUQN8

So, I still don’t get your point. I haven’t seen anyone discussing their shock and displeasure over some unusual Orthodox rituals. For instance, I knew a family years ago who used to rip all of their toilet paper pieces in advance of the Sabbath and place them on the back of the toilet, so they wouldn’t be exerting the energy on the day. This seems a little over the top to me, but I don’t mock it.

 

[Sepharad]

But you are ignoring the fact that 2 billion or whatever the number is are christians. So I guess it really isn’t a nonsensical notion.

The Catholics on this forum, in other threads, like to say that “God can do anything!” (referring to things like letting a Jewish married woman stay a virgin, turn bread into real skin, etc)

Well, then, God can also create two separate religious paths for two separate groups of people: One covenant for Jews, and one for Gentiles! That is what Judaism already recognizes, we’re just waiting for Christians to ‘come aboard’ and recognize it too!

 

[Sepharad]

Some things in Judaism look odd to the outsider, as well. Case in point:

youtube.com/watch?v=Ej13paGUQN8

So, I still don’t get your point. I haven’t seen anyone discussing their shock and displeasure over some unusual Orthodox rituals. For instance, I knew a family years ago who used to rip all of their toilet paper pieces in advance of the Sabbath and place them on the back of the toilet, so they wouldn’t be exerting the energy on the day. This seems a little over the top to me, but I don’t mock it.

That video shows the kapparos ceremony, in which the chicken atones for the sins of the people. This ceremony is rooted in Torah Law, just so you know.

as for pre-teaing toilet paper, no one does that anymore, now they simply put a box of tissues in the bathroom on Shabbos.

The reason for pre-tearing toilet paper is because you are not permitted to tear anything on the Sabbath. This in in the category of all the things you are not supposed to do, such as tear/harvest grain (what Jesus had his followers do when he told them to do something which violated the Sabbath.)

 

[Valke2]

Some things in Judaism look odd to the outsider, as well. Case in point:

youtube.com/watch?v=Ej13paGUQN8

So, I still don’t get your point. I haven’t seen anyone discussing their shock and displeasure over some unusual Orthodox rituals. For instance, I knew a family years ago who used to rip all of their toilet paper pieces in advance of the Sabbath and place them on the back of the toilet, so they wouldn’t be exerting the energy on the day. This seems a little over the top to me, but I don’t mock it.

It isn’t done to save energy on the sabbath. Rather, there is a prohibition against tearing things on Shabbat. Not that it doesn’t make it less odd.

 

[Sepharad]

It isn’t done to save energy on the sabbath. Rather, there is a prohibition against tearing things on Shabbat. Not that it doesn’t make it less odd.

Its listed in the 30 melachos, things you are prohibited from doing on Shabbos.

 

[Eden]

It isn’t done to save energy on the sabbath. Rather, there is a prohibition against tearing things on Shabbat. Not that it doesn’t make it less odd.

Thanks. I never knew that. I don’t have a problem with “odd” things like this and would never have brought it up under other circumstances. I would have thought the Jewish people would have been in some way simpatico with Catholics about these “oddities” within our faiths. But apparently, not always…

 

[LilyM]

But you are ignoring the fact that 2 billion or whatever the number is are christians. So I guess it really isn’t a nonsensical notion.

Yeah, but you’re forgetting His FIRST followers were all Jews themselves, and they didn’t consider themslves exempt from HIS commandments.

Nor, after a little wrangling and arguing among themselves about the issue, did they any longer consider themselves bound by most of the Jewish law either.

 

[Sepharad]

Thanks. I never knew that. I don’t have a problem with “odd” things like this and would never have brought it up under other circumstances. I would have thought the Jewish people would have been in some way simpatico with Catholics about these “oddities” within our faiths. But apparently, not always…

The only reason I even offered my criticisms of some of the Catholic practices was because several Catholics kept trying to missionize me for their religion, and used some of those oddities as examples of why I should convert. I was telling them why those oddities had no effect on me.

Jews do not try to convert Christians to Judaism, so you would have no reason to offer your criticisms of our oddities, now would you?

 

[Sepharad]

Yeah, but you’re forgetting His FIRST followers were all Jews themselves, and they didn’t consider themslves exempt from HIS commandments.

Nor, after a little wrangling and arguing among themselves about the issue, did they any longer consider themselves bound by most of the Jewish law either.

See? Your last statement is one reason why Judaism sees Jesus and his followers as having Deut. 13 applied to them. Because by rejecting Jewish Law, they were, in essence, telling Jews to follow another religious path. That falls under Deut. 13.

 

[ralphinal]

See? Your last statement is one reason why Judaism sees Jesus and his followers as having Deut. 13 applied to them. Because by rejecting Jewish Law, they were, in essence, telling Jews to follow another religious path. That falls under Deut. 13.

The early Church had two sets of rules: one for Jewish Christians and one for Gentiles. This seemed to be a good system up until the Jewish religious leadreship kicked them out of the Church. At that time, those who followed the Jewish code saw themselves as no longer being Jews and were then under the Gentile code.

Even if they were still bound by the Law, it would only be a small portion of Christianity. For example, my Catholic faith is through my Sicilian ancestors, so I would be a Gentile.

 

[Sepharad]

The early Church had two sets of rules: one for Jewish Christians and one for Gentiles. This seemed to be a good system up until the Jewish religious leadreship kicked them out of the Church. At that time, those who followed the Jewish code saw themselves as no longer being Jews and were then under the Gentile code.

Even if they were still bound by the Law, it would only be a small portion of Christianity. For example, my Catholic faith is through my Sicilian ancestors, so I would be a Gentile.

The point I was trying to make is that Christianity as a whole, ultimately decided that none of them were bound to keep Torah.

By Torah and Jewish standards, this amounts to following a new religious path, which therefore places it under deut. 13 for Jews.

Keeping Torah=Judaism

Not keeping Torah=another religion

 

[LilyM]

See? Your last statement is one reason why Judaism sees Jesus and his followers as having Deut. 13 applied to them. Because by rejecting Jewish Law, they were, in essence, telling Jews to follow another religious path. That falls under Deut. 13.

No, not rejecting it, just fulfilling and perfecting it as Jesus Himself said. Expanding and growing in their understanding of it.

Kinda like the Jews themselves when they moved from Egypt to Israel, when they expanded Noah’s covenant into Abraham’s and then the Law of Moses, when they replaced Moses himself with a group of Judges, then with kings, when they replaced Moses’ temporary ‘meeting tent’ with Solomon’s Temple, and that with the Second Temple …

 

[Sepharad]

No, not rejecting it, just fulfilling and perfecting it as Jesus Himself said. Expanding and growing in their understanding of it.

Kinda like the Jews themselves when they moved from Egypt to Israel, when they expanded Noah’s covenant into Abraham’s and then the Law of Moses, when they replaced Moses himself with a group of Judges, then with kings, when they replaced Moses’ temporary ‘meeting tent’ with Solomon’s Temple, and that with the Second Temple …

Never mind, its circular reasoning again. You’ll never understand what I’m saying.