J
JaneGrey
Guest
I may disagree vehemently with some of your views, but I will say that even at your ‘worst’ you were alot more charitable than certain others who share your opinion about modesty.
God bless
- Status
God bless
T
TrueLight
Guest
Yes. I meant a one-piece or a bikini. It was too late to edit.A bikini IS a bathing suit. And as there is nothing wrong with bikinis, of course I’d wear one.
T
TrueLight
Guest
Being called outlandish is not the worst thing in the world. In fact, I think I like it.
Do I believe Indian women or certain tribes should cover? Of course not?
However, I would not use nudists as an example. Come on!
D
Debora123
Guest
I agree. Rest assured Edward, after having endured ppl claiming that I was going to Hell for wearing shorts, and after having someone on here say that women who don’t dress to their personal standards are TRASH, you come of as VERY charitable.
So no worries buddy
I’ve developed a thick skin around here. Unfortunately, you kinda have to when dealing with certain types of “Christians.”
D
Debora123
Guest
Ah, I see. Well nonetheless, considering there is nothing illicit about wearing a bikini to the beach/pool, I’ll have to say that I see absolutely no reason not to.Yes. I meant a one-piece or a bikini. It was too late to edit.
D
Debora123
Guest
Just curious… why not?
E
Equites_Christi
Guest
Maybe I can help bridge the gap between these two very angry waves.
I will try to speak in terms that both sides can agree with.
As a young man who knows other young men and can look at the world around him, I can say with a degree of certainty that men are stimulated visually. If you look at the advertising industry, they know this too. Billboards, posters, videos, and pictures are everywhere, many of them filled with suggestive images of women. When you think about it, pornography itself is mostly or entirely visual. So, not surprisingly, it grips countless men like a vice (pun half-intended )
Now, can men control themselves? YES. Is it easy? NO. Is that an excuse? NO. But I think both sides of this issue are being rather insensitive to each other.
So to the one side, I say this: we cannot control what other people wear, but we can control what we do. Sexual urges are some of the most powerful things a man will have to deal with in his lifetime, I know. But anything is possible through Christ. When you think about it, society has programmed us to lust after certain things. When we see an ad of a woman in skimpy clothing, it usually goes hand in hand with sexual signals - by her behavior or whatnot - like “she wants to have sex with me” or “she’s really turned on.” In order to survive in this modern world, we have to reject this programming. If we tell ourselves that bikinis always incite lust, then they will always incite lust in us. We can’t make things harder for ourselves by setting up our own traps. If we are presented with the full set of a woman’s legs, we should think “She has legs. I have legs too. I think mine are hairier” and leave it at that. Is that easy? You bet your butt not. Especially since there will always be something in a man kindled by visuals. But through grace and diligence, nothing cannot be mastered.
To the other side: The world knows men’s weaknesses and loves exploiting them, just like it does for women. But just because we men have weaknesses does not mean that we are animals or lack self-control. Society has told us that it is ok to let go of self-control and be a pervert or a pig or what have you, and it can be hard to shake those messages. We really do have a lot on our plate - again, just like women - so we ask that you try not to make it harder for us. We don’t want special treatment, we need special consideration. Should you have to live like every man you meet is a wild hormone-driven animal? No! But the truth is most men are at least somewhat affected by what you wear, and it’s something to keep in mind.
Also, I can’t help but wonder, what do you get out of wearing skimpy clothes? I’m talking about shirts that show lots of cleavage, shorts so short you can see the skin where the leg joins the torso, etc. Is it freedom? Pride? The comfort of fitting in? Is it so good that it outweighs its effects on others? Is it something which cannot be given up for your Christian brothers and the Lord?
I’m hoping that maybe less ranting and more communication can enter this. It’s a very prominent issue which calls for compassion on both sides.
I will try to speak in terms that both sides can agree with.
As a young man who knows other young men and can look at the world around him, I can say with a degree of certainty that men are stimulated visually. If you look at the advertising industry, they know this too. Billboards, posters, videos, and pictures are everywhere, many of them filled with suggestive images of women. When you think about it, pornography itself is mostly or entirely visual. So, not surprisingly, it grips countless men like a vice (pun half-intended
)Now, can men control themselves? YES. Is it easy? NO. Is that an excuse? NO. But I think both sides of this issue are being rather insensitive to each other.
So to the one side, I say this: we cannot control what other people wear, but we can control what we do. Sexual urges are some of the most powerful things a man will have to deal with in his lifetime, I know. But anything is possible through Christ. When you think about it, society has programmed us to lust after certain things. When we see an ad of a woman in skimpy clothing, it usually goes hand in hand with sexual signals - by her behavior or whatnot - like “she wants to have sex with me” or “she’s really turned on.” In order to survive in this modern world, we have to reject this programming. If we tell ourselves that bikinis always incite lust, then they will always incite lust in us. We can’t make things harder for ourselves by setting up our own traps. If we are presented with the full set of a woman’s legs, we should think “She has legs. I have legs too. I think mine are hairier” and leave it at that. Is that easy? You bet your butt not. Especially since there will always be something in a man kindled by visuals. But through grace and diligence, nothing cannot be mastered.
To the other side: The world knows men’s weaknesses and loves exploiting them, just like it does for women. But just because we men have weaknesses does not mean that we are animals or lack self-control. Society has told us that it is ok to let go of self-control and be a pervert or a pig or what have you, and it can be hard to shake those messages. We really do have a lot on our plate - again, just like women - so we ask that you try not to make it harder for us. We don’t want special treatment, we need special consideration. Should you have to live like every man you meet is a wild hormone-driven animal? No! But the truth is most men are at least somewhat affected by what you wear, and it’s something to keep in mind.
Also, I can’t help but wonder, what do you get out of wearing skimpy clothes? I’m talking about shirts that show lots of cleavage, shorts so short you can see the skin where the leg joins the torso, etc. Is it freedom? Pride? The comfort of fitting in? Is it so good that it outweighs its effects on others? Is it something which cannot be given up for your Christian brothers and the Lord?
I’m hoping that maybe less ranting and more communication can enter this. It’s a very prominent issue which calls for compassion on both sides.
L
LemonAndLime
Guest
I agree, of course you wouldn’t. For many different tribes/cultures, showing flesh is not considered sexual or immodest. Many women have exposed breasts but the men don’t stare as they’re considered to be purely there to feed babies. However, as many tribes are now living in Islamic territories they’re being enforced to cover up, which I think is a shame. I believe very much in other people’s cultures being preserved… to an extent.Being called outlandish is not the worst thing in the world. In fact, I think I like it.
Do I believe Indian women or certain tribes should cover? Of course not?
However, I would not use nudists as an example. Come on!
D
Debora123
Guest
I wouldn’t be able to answer that question because I don’t wear shirts that show lots of cleavage, and I don’t wear shorts that are so short that you can see the skin where the leg joins the torso.
The clothes you mentioned above are NOT a cultural norm. They are not considered appropriate in this culture, and as modesty is dependent on culture, than of course we can go ahead and conclude that, yes, those clothes ARE skimpy and immodest around here.
My argument was against people saying that showing a knee, is immodest. Not wearing sleeves, is immodest. Going to the beach in a 2 piece, is immodest.
My argument was, no, they are not. They are cultural norms of dress. There is nothing immodest about a basic pair of shorts and tank top on a hot day, and it bugs me when people try to tell women that they are trash for wearing them.
D
Debora123
Guest
I agree with everything you said in this post. Thank you.Maybe I can help bridge the gap between these two very angry waves.
I will try to speak in terms that both sides can agree with.
As a young man who knows other young men and can look at the world around him, I can say with a degree of certainty that men are stimulated visually. If you look at the advertising industry, they know this too. Billboards, posters, videos, and pictures are everywhere, many of them filled with suggestive images of women. When you think about it, pornography itself is mostly or entirely visual. So, not surprisingly, it grips countless men like a vice (pun half-intended
Now, can men control themselves? YES. Is it easy? NO. Is that an excuse? NO. But I think both sides of this issue are being rather insensitive to each other.
So to the one side, I say this: we cannot control what other people wear, but we can control what we do. Sexual urges are some of the most powerful things a man will have to deal with in his lifetime, I know. But anything is possible through Christ. When you think about it, society has programmed us to lust after certain things. When we see an ad of a woman in skimpy clothing, it usually goes hand in hand with sexual signals - by her behavior or whatnot - like “she wants to have sex with me” or “she’s really turned on.” In order to survive in this modern world, we have to reject this programming. If we tell ourselves that bikinis always incite lust, then they will always incite lust in us. We can’t make things harder for ourselves by setting up our own traps. If we are presented with the full set of a woman’s legs, we should think “She has legs. I have legs too. I think mine are hairier” and leave it at that. Is that easy? You bet your butt not. Especially since there will always be something in a man kindled by visuals. But through grace and diligence, nothing cannot be mastered.
To the other side: The world knows men’s weaknesses and loves exploiting them, just like it does for women. But just because we men have weaknesses does not mean that we are animals or lack self-control. Society has told us that it is ok to let go of self-control and be a pervert or a pig or what have you, and it can be hard to shake those messages. We really do have a lot on our plate - again, just like women - so we ask that you try not to make it harder for us. We don’t want special treatment, we need special consideration. Should you have to live like every man you meet is a wild hormone-driven animal? No! But the truth is most men are at least somewhat affected by what you wear, and it’s something to keep in mind.
Also, I can’t help but wonder, what do you get out of wearing skimpy clothes? I’m talking about shirts that show lots of cleavage, shorts so short you can see the skin where the leg joins the torso, etc. Is it freedom? Pride? The comfort of fitting in? Is it so good that it outweighs its effects on others? Is it something which cannot be given up for your Christian brothers and the Lord?
I’m hoping that maybe less ranting and more communication can enter this. It’s a very prominent issue which calls for compassion on both sides.
The only tiny bone i have to pick here is that I think women shouldn’t dress the way you described not bc of MEN, but out of respect for THEMSELVES.
E
Equites_Christi
Guest
Excellent point. They should respect themselves as creations of God first, and I think even that would help men greatly: they would be encouraged to see the dignity and sacredness of the woman and her body.
Also, about the cultural norms: that’s also a good point; the only idea I have on that is that since society has changed so rapidly over the decades, maybe some people couldn’t accept them as norms since that’s not what they grew up with - or even knew a few years ago. However, I’m too young to have that really apply to me. Just a thought.
D
Debora123
Guest
bingo
T
TrueLight
Guest
I believe modesty is relevant to the culture. I am sure in Indian cultures, certain types of dress are considered immodest. So a religious Indian would probably not dress as those who are considered to be immodest.
Well, you might say, American culture does not see shorts or bikinis as immodest. I would agree that American secular culture doesn’t see those things as immodest per se; however, there is a subtle message that certain styles are considered “sexy”.
For example:
– a woman wearing shorts and heels- sexy
– cleavage baring tops - sexy
– bikinis --unless you are built like a boy - sexy
– tight fitting clothes - sexy
– a man wearing a wife beater - sexy (if there is no beer belly)
Some women are generally “sexy” in the way they walk, the way they bat their eyelashes, physical features etc. However, as women I do not believe we should strive to wear clothing that is classified as “sexy”.
So when it comes to American culture, I would opt toward clothing that is more conservative.
Imagine there were a bunch of women in a lineup on a stage. And a group of men and women in the audience would ask them to identify who they thought were “ladies”. By lady, I am using this definition from dictionary.com:
Whether it is fair or not, both women and men will tend to identify a “lady” based on their appearance.
Frankly, I would be embarrassed if I was not identified as a lady because I was wearing something too short or too revealing.
W
Walking_Home
Guest
Shouldn’t we as Catholics strive to treat a woman as a lady --regardless of what a woman wears.
If you would be embarrassed to not be identified as a lady --because of what you wear --it may be because you have personified the very culture–that make one woman less than another.
D
Debora123
Guest
What about beautiful tribal women with knockout bodies? Are they then, not allowed to walk around topless like is considered normal in her culture??
I completely disagree that women who look too good should have to be oppressed into covering themselves more than plain looking women and uglying themselves down.
I see nothing wrong with being sexy, as in, sexually attractive. Sexual attraction is good. I believe every women is sexy in her own way.
However, I do appreciate the fact that you acknowledge that this is your personal opinion and not try to guilt anyone for doing something that the church isn’t against. That is mainly what I can’t stand.
D
Debora123
Guest
Well then don’t you think we should fight the above, the actual ROOT of the problem, rather than feeding this mindset by trying to tell women what they cannot dress according to their own culture’s norms?
I find it interesting that there are infinitely more threads started on this forum about how women need to change the way they dress, than there about about how we should respect all ppl regardless of clothing.
W
Walking_Home
Guest
Bingo, Bingo, Bingo.
S
severus68
Guest
S
severus68
Guest
Well said.
M
MissRose73
Guest
I think more churches should mention things like this church has done on their site:
starofthesea.net/index.php/our-parish/mass-schedule
*What To Wear
We should wear to Mass what we would wear if a King invited us to his home for a feast. That is, we should wear our best. Our best should never draw attention to ourselves but give the utmost respect to the King (and His family) of whom we are special guests.
What Not To Wear *
Immodest dress (especially with women) distracts others and could cause them to sin in their thoughts, which is not why we are at Mass.
*There will be times that our only opportunity to attend Mass is after a physically demanding job or after helping Grandma bail out her flooded basement. There is nothing to worry about in such times. We should never let circumstances that are out of our control keep us away from the Sacraments! God knows what we’ve been through, and it’s not anyone’s job to judge us. By all means, come to Mass!
Still, modest*
starofthesea.net/index.php/our-parish/mass-schedule
*What To Wear
We should wear to Mass what we would wear if a King invited us to his home for a feast. That is, we should wear our best. Our best should never draw attention to ourselves but give the utmost respect to the King (and His family) of whom we are special guests.
What Not To Wear *
- Immodest or revealing clothing is never acceptable.
Code:* For Women: † Any clothing that bares midriffs or cleavage. † Tight clothing meant to accentuate (to draw attention to) various body parts that God considers, and that we ought to consider, sacred. † Short skirts (above knee) or miniskirts † Shorts (capris are okay if they hit below the knee—but still discouraged) † Sleeveless tops (short sleeves are okay). * For Men: † Shorts (yes, even in the summer months) † Tank tops. - Dirty clothes are never acceptable.
- An unkept body is never acceptable (e.g., dirty hands or fingernails).
Immodest dress (especially with women) distracts others and could cause them to sin in their thoughts, which is not why we are at Mass.
*There will be times that our only opportunity to attend Mass is after a physically demanding job or after helping Grandma bail out her flooded basement. There is nothing to worry about in such times. We should never let circumstances that are out of our control keep us away from the Sacraments! God knows what we’ve been through, and it’s not anyone’s job to judge us. By all means, come to Mass!
Still, modest*
- Status