Top 10 reasons women should dress modestly

[Edward_H]

You ask me question, which I answer, but you never answer any of mine. Please refer to the bolded below.

will get to this tomorrow…sorry…3 % battery power.

I will answer in earnest.

Good night all.

 

[Debora123]

That’s right I am saying your points are narrow, not you.

So if I told you your hair looks bad, I wouldn’t be insulting you, right? I’d be insulting your hair… so it’s ok. Uh huh.

Besides, you missed the point of my post. (or just avoided it, as usual)

My point is you are not actually arguing said weak points, just proclaiming them to be weak.

This gives off the impression that you are not doing it to help me, but to insult me.

 

[severus68]

Easy. I am not attacking the person…I am attacking the thin and narrow moral points that some how have propped up this thread over the weeks.

My desire is to integrate a very narrow/bikini discussion back to larger more substantial points about the moral life.

• our intentions
• our efforts at charity
• our self-donation
• our progress in advancing in humility
• our solidarity with all Catholics, Christians and all mankind.
• our docility to God’s will.

Then please say that and do that. Please do not make it seem everything is about your view about what is modest dressing.

I believe the views of the people I have supported on this thread and my views are that we cannot judge or treat anyone uncharitably by how they dress, that people do not necessarily dress to titilate or incite lust in others, that most people dress for themselves.
What is wrong with that please? Perhaps you should accept that not everyone is going to agree with you about what is modest dress. At least one person on this thread has ‘persuaded’ his wife to cover up her hair and wear skirts to her ankles, tops up to the top of her neck and with sleeves up to her wrists. Another prefers the dress of the 50s.

 

[Debora123]

Now you’ve lost the point. And you’ve backed up 2 weeks. I’ve never said you or anyone else dress immodestly.

I am always on the point about intention…and charity. What is your primary intention…that should be a question Catholics ask many times a day.

Oh well that’s good then, bc I’ve already stated my intentions numerous times throughout this thread… You yourself said my posts were repetitive.

If they are so repetitive then surely you must know my intentions by now, as I have stated them numerous times.

 

[Debora123]

Then please say that and do that. Please do not make it seem everything is about your view about what is modest dressing.

I believe the views of the people I have supported on this thread and my views are that we cannot judge or treat anyone uncharitably by how they dress, that people do not necessarily dress to titilate or incite lust in others, that most people dress for themselves.
What is wrong with that please? Perhaps you should accept that not everyone is going to agree with you about what is modest dress. At least one person on this thread has ‘persuaded’ his wife to cover up her hair and wear skirts to her ankles, tops up to the top of her neck and with sleeves up to her wrists. Another prefers the dress of the 50s.

 

[Edward_H]

You ask me question, which I answer, but you never answer any of mine. Please refer to the bolded below.

Originally Posted by Debora123 View Post
When I dress I dress in accordance to what is appropriate to function, time and place.The vast majority of men out there would say there is absolutely nothing wrong with what I wear. But I can’t please everyone.

I don’t know what you mean by giving consideration to others. Some people will be insulted if I wore pants. Some people would be insulted if I died my hair purple. Some people would be insulted if I exposed my knees. Some people would be insulted if I wore shorts. (Although very VERY few people on all these counts)
**
What specific choices in dress would YOU deem to be considerate of others? Can you please give me the Church’s standard as to what us Catholics are supposed to think is considerate of others when it comes to our clothes?

Another question. In your standards, am I being inconsiderate in the way I dress according to what you see in my pictures?**

Highlighted are your questions.

Here are some potential questions.

• Do these clothes show the beauty that God gave me?
• Am I dressing in this way to please God?
• Am I dressing in this way to please my husband?
• Am I dressing in this way to “fit in”?
• Do I look for security/dignity/esteem in how others see me?
• Am I showing off? Am I trying to draw attention to myself?
• Will this outfit reveal my endowment publicly?
• If my husband likes me to dress sexily in public, do I know why?
• What true good can come out of me dressily sexily in public?
• Might other women feel less if I reveal more?
• Might other men feel less of their wives, if I reveal more?
• Will any children be present?
• Do I dress in conversation with God? Am I trying to please only Him?

The Church’s standard?

In all matters and decisions we should seek to please God and to do the good.

I wasn’t sure what you meant by pictures…I see you have an album. You’re from Brazil, I hadn’t picked up on that in all these posts, I am sorry.

God gave you much beauty. Your culture likes to show beauty. Your pictures are fine, except perhaps the beach, but again that’s your culture.

I guess on this point I go back to basics: What good can come out revealing such beauty to someone other than your husband?

Not judging you…I just think that much of a husband-wife relationship.

There are so many perversions in the world - men desiring things of their wives that are not truly good for all.

Make many babies and give more beauty to God and the world. And guard marital chastity. Women sometimes have to help men, as Mary must have had to help St Joseph.

God bless.

 

[cviolette]

**He and 99.999999% of the male population. **

This is false, and I’ve explained it in many of my past posts.

Like I said before, if I viewed men in the same way that some of you do, I don’t think I could ever go to a male gyno again - or just a male doctor in general, ever again.

Oh good, we speak of “Catholic dress” again. No one has yet to answer my question as to what “Catholic Dress” would entail and make reference to Church doctrine on this particular Catholic Standard of dress.

Perhaps you will be the one to finally enlighten me?

Not sure I will be able to hit on the responses to my post. Busy day today.

I like men. Most of my friends are men. I worked, went to school and hung around with almost all men. I am married to a man and have 3 boys. I have 4 brothers and 5 brother in laws. I prefer to be around men than women. And yes - men think about sex a lot. How could they not with all the temptations? I don’t think it is evil or they are perverted. They are visual. Sex is natural and beautiful. It is the secular world that has perverted it.

Everyone will have a different definition on modesty. But if you are showing most of your body, I am not sure how that can be considered modest.

Let’s talk beach and bikini.

Okay - I get the not wanting to have the one piece stick to your stomach and it is easier to use the bathroom. But do you just use it to swim or do you stroll around the beach in it or do you throw on a t-shirt or shorts over it. You probably lay out and tan in it. If so, why would your belly need to be tanned? Are you okay with extremely overweight people wearing bikinis or should you have a nice body?

I do think the argument has become useless. I have made many mistakes in my life and pray on all my decisions which does include how I dress. Maybe I am not the norm but when I give my life completely over to God, I am at peace. When I try to control my own life and desires, life becomes more chaotic and difficult. I am still growing in my faith and am not that good at defending my beliefs but I do feel that I need to dress more modestly. I will not wear a bikini.

 

[Edward_H]

So if I told you your hair looks bad, I wouldn’t be insulting you, right? I’d be insulting your hair… so it’s ok. Uh huh.

Besides, you missed the point of my post. (or just avoided it, as usual)

My point is you are not actually arguing said weak points, just proclaiming them to be weak.

This gives off the impression that you are not doing it to help me, but to insult me.

Hair is hardly our ideas and soul.

If you told me my hair looks bad, I’d smile and ask why. I’d fix it if I could so as to not draw attention to myself. , not because someone might be offended. My security is in God, not in others opinons of me.

Ideas and principles of moral life need to be strong and true and reinforcing. The Church shows us the integration of these points in the Catechism.

Searching the Catechism can sometimes answer a specific question…and sometimes it can be used to “proof text” someone’s opinion. Again it goes back to intention…am I trying to please God by fully understanding His truth in all its fullness, or am I trying to one-up others, etc.

Struggling to live a morally good life is God’s demand on us. Struggling is the operative word.

To struggle well, means we need to try to understand God’s will for us. God’s will is not herky jerky…it’s beautiful, it’s integrated, it’s whole, all well tied together.

The principles and points I referenced above help us to not live in a herky jerky world of rules…they help us live serenely.

That’s why Jesus boiled all Law into 2 commandments. So we wouldn’t need so many threads in forums!!!

 

[wynnejj]

What Debora123 defines as “pervert” is nothing more than the predator that is hard-wired into the DNA of that vast majority of men.

A caveman sees an animal that is food, he chases it, bops it over the head, drags it back to the cave, eats it. A caveman sees a woman away from other caveman competitors - a loose woman so to speak - he chases it, bops it over the head, drags it back to the cave, and procreates. The cavewoman, if she’s not too keen on repeat boppings, will not run away. Any caveman that tries to enter the cave to steal food or woman will meet with deadly territorial resistance. After all, it takes a lot out of a caveman to chase and bop his woman and his meat. Of course, if the woman wants to run, there’s nothing left to do but chase after the woman or find another one close to the cave that is loose.

Over the centuries by the process of natural selection, cavemen that can attract the woman they want quickly, and cavewomen that can attract the man they want quickly, and can avoid repeat chasings and boppings are the ones that flourish and live to see repeat generations of cave persons that are genetically disposed towards a steady pack structure where members don’t stray too far from the cave.

In fact, natural selection breeds mostly cavewomen with one kind of pre-disposition and, cavemen with two intrinsic dispositions. The cavewoman is genetically pre-disposed to select and lure the man she likes quickly before she gets bopped over the head by the one to whom she is unwilling to stay. The caveman on the other hand is pre-disposed towards two behaviors - to court the woman through a submissive behavior in order to lure and keep her from running away and, the chase instinct to find the closest loose woman he can bop. After all, it takes a lot out of a caveman to chase and bop his woman. Of course, if the caveman sees a bunch of loose women in one setting, the instinct is to draw the woman he chooses away from the rest, and if he can’t lure her back to his cave, he bops her over the head and drags her back.

Through the process of natural selection, all men have been bred to be woman predators. All women instinctively know, fear and loathe this rightly. Nevertheless, it is unwise for prey to tempt the predator. It is no fun going through the school of hard-knocks.

 

[cviolette]

This is the problem right here. You think there is something disrespectful about wearing a bikini to the beach. (there ya go Edward, i said it again)

There is not! A bikini is not immodest. It is what women wear to go swimming in this country, in the 21st century. There is nothing sexual about it, unless a pervert makes it so - as pervert can make ANYTHING sexual. You are making the claim that bikinis are immodest and that wearing one is disrespectful, but you have absolutely no basis to back up this claim.

I didn’t say it was disrespectful to wear a bikini. I just said it had nothing to do with respect. It is about pride and vanity. I don’t go clothes shopping and say, I respect myself so much I am going to buy this cute little outfit. I purchase and wear the outfit because it makes me look good or feel good. Nothing to do with respect. Vanity, pride or ego. But not respect.

I am not disrespecting myself by wearing more modest clothes.

The only important point about respect is that we should respect people no matter how they are dressed. Everyone is a child of God.

 

[Edward_H]

I believe the views of the people I have supported on this thread and my views are that we cannot judge or treat anyone uncharitably by how they dress, that people do not necessarily dress to titilate or incite lust in others, that most people dress for themselves.
What is wrong with that please? Perhaps you should accept that not everyone is going to agree with you about what is modest dress. At least one person on this thread has ‘persuaded’ his wife to cover up her hair and wear skirts to her ankles, tops up to the top of her neck and with sleeves up to her wrists. Another prefers the dress of the 50s.

Actually, I don’t think the highlighted point is fully correct. There is “judging” and there is judging uncharitably and then there is proper fraternal correction.

Fraternal correction is part of the life of a Catholic. We don’t talk much about it, but it’s Biblical and is part of the Catholic life.

If you’re part of the Catholic community, its entirely within bounds to give and receive a fraternal correction charitably.

I am in a men’s book discussion club in my Church. If I saw, say, one of our younger married (or older guys) coming in hung over several times…and I knew him fairly well, I am called to consider pulling him aside charitably and asking if he’s ok, to point to his behavior, ask him if he’s ok, if he needs any help.

This isn’t judging. The comparison to how one dresses isn’t that far a stretch. We have responsibility for each other in the kingdom of God. That’s Biblical and in the Catechism.

 

[Edward_H]

Debora123;8036053:

Not sure I will be able to hit on the responses to my post. Busy day today.

I like men. Most of my friends are men. I worked, went to school and hung around with almost all men. I am married to a man and have 3 boys. I have 4 brothers and 5 brother in laws. I prefer to be around men than women. And yes - men think about sex a lot. How could they not with all the temptations? I don’t think it is evil or they are perverted. They are visual. Sex is natural and beautiful. It is the secular world that has perverted it.

Everyone will have a different definition on modesty. But if you are showing most of your body, I am not sure how that can be considered modest.

Let’s talk beach and bikini.

Okay - I get the not wanting to have the one piece stick to your stomach and it is easier to use the bathroom. But do you just use it to swim or do you stroll around the beach in it or do you throw on a t-shirt or shorts over it. You probably lay out and tan in it. If so, why would your belly need to be tanned? Are you okay with extremely overweight people wearing bikinis or should you have a nice body?

I do think the argument has become useless. I have made many mistakes in my life and pray on all my decisions which does include how I dress. Maybe I am not the norm but when I give my life completely over to God, I am at peace. When I try to control my own life and desires, life becomes more chaotic and difficult. I am still growing in my faith and am not that good at defending my beliefs but I do feel that I need to dress more modestly. I will not wear a bikini.

So many good points here…sound ones, and such sincerity and good struggle.

 

[Debora123]

Highlighted are your questions.

Here are some potential questions.

• Do these clothes show the beauty that God gave me?
• Am I dressing in this way to please God?
• Am I dressing in this way to please my husband?
• Am I dressing in this way to “fit in”?
• Do I look for security/dignity/esteem in how others see me?
• Am I showing off? Am I trying to draw attention to myself?
• Will this outfit reveal my endowment publicly?
• If my husband likes me to dress sexily in public, do I know why?
• What true good can come out of me dressily sexily in public?
• Might other women feel less if I reveal more?
• Might other men feel less of their wives, if I reveal more?
• Will any children be present?
• Do I dress in conversation with God? Am I trying to please only Him?

The Church’s standard?

In all matters and decisions we should seek to please God and to do the good.

I wasn’t sure what you meant by pictures…I see you have an album. You’re from Brazil, I hadn’t picked up on that in all these posts, I am sorry.

God gave you much beauty. Your culture likes to show beauty. Your pictures are fine, except perhaps the beach, but again that’s your culture.

I guess on this point I go back to basics: What good can come out revealing such beauty to someone other than your husband?

Not judging you…I just think that much of a husband-wife relationship.

There are so many perversions in the world - men desiring things of their wives that are not truly good for all.

Make many babies and give more beauty to God and the world. And guard marital chastity. Women sometimes have to help men, as Mary must have had to help St Joseph.

God bless.

…And yet you still don’t answer my questions. Only bombard me with more. Interesting.

 

[Debora123]

Not sure I will be able to hit on the responses to my post. Busy day today.

I like men. Most of my friends are men. I worked, went to school and hung around with almost all men. I am married to a man and have 3 boys. I have 4 brothers and 5 brother in laws. I prefer to be around men than women. And yes - men think about sex a lot. How could they not with all the temptations? I don’t think it is evil or they are perverted. They are visual. Sex is natural and beautiful. It is the secular world that has perverted it.

Yup, agreed with everything you said here, and I too much prefer spending time with men than women. I don’t see how the above paragraph proves that 99.999999% of man are in a constant struggle of lust and cannot handle themselves seeing women wear standard 21st century attire. I’ve definitely never met any man like that.

Everyone will have a different definition on modesty. But if you are showing most of your body, I am not sure how that can be considered modest.

Ok, key phrase in your statement here: everyone will have a different definition of modesty. Maybe you think my clothes are immodest bc by YOUR definition of modesty, they are immodest. Meaning this is YOUR opinion. Not the Church’s, not our culture’s, YOURS. You think they are immodest bc by your standards, they show too much body. In this day and age, certain functions require partial nudity, swimming being one of them. And as JPII said, there is nothing wrong with that.

Pope John Paul II -------in Love and Responsibility:

While we are on the subject of dress and its relevance to the problem of modesty and immodesty it is worth drawing attention to the functional significance of differences in attire. There are certain objective situations in which even total nudity of the body is not immodest, since the proper function of nakedness in this context is not to provoke a reaction to the person as an object for enjoyment, and in just the same way the functions of particular forms of attire may vary. Thus, the body may be partially bared for physical labour, for bathing, or for a medical examination. If then we wish to pass a moral judgment on particular forms of dress we have to start from the particular functions which they serve. When a person uses such a form of dress in accordance with its objective function we cannot claim to see anything immodest in it, even if it involves partial nudity. Whereas the use of such a costume outside its proper context is immodest, and is inevitably felt to be so.
For example, there is nothing immodest about the use of a bathing costume at a bathing place, but to wear it in the street or while out for a walk is contrary to the dictates of modesty.

Let’s talk beach and bikini.

Okay - I get the not wanting to have the one piece stick to your stomach and it is easier to use the bathroom. But do you just use it to swim or do you stroll around the beach in it or do you throw on a t-shirt or shorts over it. You probably lay out and tan in it. If so, why would your belly need to be tanned? Are you okay with extremely overweight people wearing bikinis or should you have a nice body?

I go to the beach in it, play in the water in it, sun bathe in it, walk along the shore line with it - as everyone else here does. It is not an indecent, immodest thing. It is a normal thing. I say this as someone who grew up at the beach. It’s not like I don’t know what I’m talking about.

You ask why my belly would need to be tan. My belly doesn’t NEED to be tan. I like it to be tan, mainly so I don’t look ridiculous naked. And since there is nothing immodest about it, then why not? It feels good, it’s completely appropriate, and it’s part of beach life. I’ve never seen anyone put a tshirt on at the beach to lay out and tan.

I do think the argument has become useless. I have made many mistakes in my life and pray on all my decisions which does include how I dress. Maybe I am not the norm but when I give my life completely over to God, I am at peace. When I try to control my own life and desires, life becomes more chaotic and difficult. I am still growing in my faith and am not that good at defending my beliefs but I do feel that I need to dress more modestly. I will not wear a bikini.

No one here is condemning you for not wearing one. It is your personal choice.

I am completely at peace with how I dress and I know God has no problem with it.

 

[Debora123]

Hair is hardly our ideas and soul.

If you told me my hair looks bad, I’d smile and ask why. I’d fix it if I could so as to not draw attention to myself. , not because someone might be offended. My security is in God, not in others opinons of me.

Ok, so insulting my ideas and my soul should therefore be more offensive, no? (Which is exactly what you did and what you are admitting you did here in this post.) Especially if you just tell me they suck rather than pin pointing why and going into a discussion with me about them.

You know you could just apologize rather than trying to make jokes and dance around the point I was trying to make. But you won’t, so I am done discussing ME in this thread.

 

[Debora123]

What Debora123 defines as “pervert” is nothing more than the predator that is hard-wired into the DNA of that vast majority of men.

I’ll let my husband respond to this statement. He doesn’t like it when people try to paint a picture of men being primitive animals whose DNA is “wired” to lust. (which is false, btw)

And men who say this are just trying to excuse themselves for lusting, rather than being real men and taking responsibility for their actions rather than blaming women and their DNA.

 

[Debora123]

I didn’t say it was disrespectful to wear a bikini. I just said it had nothing to do with respect. It is about pride and vanity.

NO, it is not. I wear them. Everyone I know wears them. I grew up at the beach. This is the normal swimming attire and there is nothing wrong with them. YOU are making completely false accusations and unfair judgements of all the women in this world who wear bikinis, saying that wearing them is prideful and vain. You are making this false, judgmental accusation without any thing at all to back up such a rash statement.

I don’t go clothes shopping and say, I respect myself so much I am going to buy this cute little outfit. I purchase and wear the outfit because it makes me look good or feel good. Nothing to do with respect. Vanity, pride or ego. But not respect.

If I thought something looked immodest, I wouldn’t buy it. There ya go, respect for myself.

I am not disrespecting myself by wearing more modest clothes.

No one said you were. I am not disrespecting myself either. I don’t wear immodest clothes.

The only important point about respect is that we should respect people no matter how they are dressed. Everyone is a child of God.

Contradictory to your posts, but yes, of course.

 

[Debora123]

So many good points here…sound ones, and such sincerity and good struggle.

So you insult me for bringing up “bikinis” but when someone else from your side does it, you give them a thumbs up. Uh huh.

Double standards much? And then you claim you are not attacking me personally. Or I mean, excuse me, you are not attacking my soul personally.

 

[severus68]

What Debora123 defines as “pervert” is nothing more than the predator that is hard-wired into the DNA of that vast majority of men.

A caveman sees an animal that is food, he chases it, bops it over the head, drags it back to the cave, eats it. A caveman sees a woman away from other caveman competitors - a loose woman so to speak - he chases it, bops it over the head, drags it back to the cave, and procreates. The cavewoman, if she’s not too keen on repeat boppings, will not run away. Any caveman that tries to enter the cave to steal food or woman will meet with deadly territorial resistance. After all, it takes a lot out of a caveman to chase and bop his woman and his meat. Of course, if the woman wants to run, there’s nothing left to do but chase after the woman or find another one close to the cave that is loose.

Over the centuries by the process of natural selection, cavemen that can attract the woman they want quickly, and cavewomen that can attract the man they want quickly, and can avoid repeat chasings and boppings are the ones that flourish and live to see repeat generations of cave persons that are genetically disposed towards a steady pack structure where members don’t stray too far from the cave.

In fact, natural selection breeds mostly cavewomen with one kind of pre-disposition and, cavemen with two intrinsic dispositions. The cavewoman is genetically pre-disposed to select and lure the man she likes quickly before she gets bopped over the head by the one to whom she is unwilling to stay. The caveman on the other hand is pre-disposed towards two behaviors - to court the woman through a submissive behavior in order to lure and keep her from running away and, the chase instinct to find the closest loose woman he can bop. After all, it takes a lot out of a caveman to chase and bop his woman. Of course, if the caveman sees a bunch of loose women in one setting, the instinct is to draw the woman he chooses away from the rest, and if he can’t lure her back to his cave, he bops her over the head and drags her back.

Through the process of natural selection, all men have been bred to be woman predators. All women instinctively know, fear and loathe this rightly. Nevertheless, it is unwise for prey to tempt the predator. It is no fun going through the school of hard-knocks.

I assume this is just a joke not in very good taste. If it is not a joke, you are being offensive and talking rubbish.

 

[severus68]

Actually, I don’t think the highlighted point is fully correct. There is “judging” and there is judging uncharitably and then there is proper fraternal correction.

Fraternal correction is part of the life of a Catholic. We don’t talk much about it, but it’s Biblical and is part of the Catholic life.

If you’re part of the Catholic community, its entirely within bounds to give and receive a fraternal correction charitably.

I am in a men’s book discussion club in my Church. If I saw, say, one of our younger married (or older guys) coming in hung over several times…and I knew him fairly well, I am called to consider pulling him aside charitably and asking if he’s ok, to point to his behavior, ask him if he’s ok, if he needs any help.

This isn’t judging. The comparison to how one dresses isn’t that far a stretch. We have responsibility for each other in the kingdom of God. That’s Biblical and in the Catechism.

The example you have given is concern and care for a friend who meets you and other friends. Being drunk and hung over frequently would be a cause of concern to friends and family.
Your example is certainly not analogous to a person making his own determination that someone who is not your daughter/son is immodestly dressed and correcting her.