Top 10 reasons women should dress modestly

[wynnejj]

I’ll let my husband respond to this statement. He doesn’t like it when people try to paint a picture of men being primitive animals whose DNA is “wired” to lust. (which is false, btw)

And men who say this are just trying to excuse themselves for lusting, rather than being real men and taking responsibility for their actions rather than blaming women and their DNA.

I’m intrigued about Portrait’s point about the power of the woman’s body on the sensibilities of the man, especially King David. Here you have a man who was willing to battle Goliath with a little slingshot because someone disrespected the name of the one true God. He went into battle, not tempting God with the expectation that God would save him for the honor of God’s own name, but rather expecting to die that day for the honor of God.

Yet this same man succumbed to his own natural instincts to keep his eyes fixed on a beautiful body and become fixated on mating with her. So deep was his shame of the power of woman over him, that he first sought to give Uriah a “paid vacation” to be with his wife and supposedly have relations to hide the fact that Bathsheba was giving birth to his child. When that didn’t work, he sent Uriah to the front lines of war to be killed in battle, so that he could marry her properly.

What made this man devoted to God succumb to the shape and beauty of a woman? I say, natural instinct, biological imperative that is difficult for even the most principled man to overcome.

What is truly interesting is how the Bible still hails this person / pervert? in such widespread high praises? Such is the worth of a man with such a problem and true contrition!

Whereas I agree that this natural instinct varies in degree from one male to the next, I humbly submit that it is there in such a large number of males and is truly a strongly intrinsic biological natural instinct to become fixated on the natural beauty and shape of a woman.

 

[Edward_H]

…And yet you still don’t answer my questions. Only bombard me with more. Interesting.

Huh?

You asked “what questions”, I gave you 11.

You asked what standard and I gave it to you. To please God in all things. That’s a mature answer. If you need a uniform guide with clearances and lengths, you’re in the wrong Church.

I answered every question I saw.

 

[Edward_H]

The example you have given is concern and care for a friend who meets you and other friends. Being drunk and hung over frequently would be a cause of concern to friends and family.
Your example is certainly not analogous to a person making his own determination that someone who is not your daughter/son is immodestly dressed and correcting her.

Let me make the connection more obvious. If a woman observes a woman friend who dresses sexily at nearly every event (operationally defined as cleavage, lots of legs, little to the imagination…) who is clearly bringing attention from other men, with other signs of disorder (her kids are left alone while she’s getting hair done, clothes made, tanning, etc.)…then there are signs of disorder due to the attention she pays to her looks.

I’ve seen it. My wife has seen it.

So a man who is hung over all the time will eventually fall behind in his duties and the reputation this leads to…etc. connect the dots.

 

[severus68]

Let me make the connection more obvious. If a woman observes a woman friend who dresses sexily at nearly every event (operationally defined as cleavage, lots of legs, little to the imagination…) who is clearly bringing attention from other men, with other signs of disorder (her kids are left alone while she’s getting hair done, clothes made, tanning, etc.)…then there are signs of disorder due to the attention she pays to her looks.

I’ve seen it. My wife has seen it.

So a man who is hung over all the time will eventually fall behind in his duties and the reputation this leads to…etc. connect the dots.

If a woman or a man neglects her/his children she/he may be guilty of a crime, is morally wrong for endangering her children/his children. Who decides a woman is disordered by her dressing? You Edward? You are now associating how a woman dresses with how she takes care of her children.

No, you were specific. A friend who arrived at meeting place frequently hung over.

 

[Edward_H]

If a woman or a man neglects her/his children she/he may be guilty of a crime, is morally wrong for endangering her children/his children. Who decides a woman is disordered by her dressing? You Edward? You are now associating how a woman dresses with how she takes care of her children.

No, you were specific. A friend who arrived at meeting place frequently hung over.

You’re missing a substantial point. It’s not me or you who determines anything. It’s the woman and her husband, one heart, by virtue of the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony.

I am not associating anything of the sort. I am pointing out that we are integrated souls, we have soul, body, mind, will. One aspect of our life affects another aspect of our life.

I am holding my ground on the point of fraternal correction. There is a proper role and way to conduct fraternal corrections.

I suggest you spool up on that aspect of our Christian life in the Body of Christ, in order to understand its origin, purpose, and method.

 

[cviolette]

Yup, agreed with everything you said here, and I too much prefer spending time with men than women. I don’t see how the above paragraph proves that 99.999999% of man are in a constant struggle of lust and cannot handle themselves seeing women wear standard 21st century attire. I’ve definitely never met any man like that.

Ok, key phrase in your statement here: everyone will have a different definition of modesty. Maybe you think my clothes are immodest bc by YOUR definition of modesty, they are immodest. Meaning this is YOUR opinion. Not the Church’s, not our culture’s, YOURS. You think they are immodest bc by your standards, they show too much body. In this day and age, certain functions require partial nudity, swimming being one of them. And as JPII said, there is nothing wrong with that.

I go to the beach in it, play in the water in it, sun bathe in it, walk along the shore line with it - as everyone else here does. It is not an indecent, immodest thing. It is a normal thing. I say this as someone who grew up at the beach. It’s not like I don’t know what I’m talking about.

You ask why my belly would need to be tan. My belly doesn’t NEED to be tan. I like it to be tan, mainly so I don’t look ridiculous naked. And since there is nothing immodest about it, then why not? It feels good, it’s completely appropriate, and it’s part of beach life. I’ve never seen anyone put a tshirt on at the beach to lay out and tan.

No one here is condemning you for not wearing one. It is your personal choice.

I am completely at peace with how I dress and I know God has no problem with it.

I don’t think anyone of us know what we will faced when we are judged. The bold says it all. You said you never even prayed on it but you know God has no problem with it.

 

[Edward_H]

Ok, so insulting my ideas and my soul should therefore be more offensive, no? (Which is exactly what you did and what you are admitting you did here in this post.) Especially if you just tell me they suck rather than pin pointing why and going into a discussion with me about them.

You know you could just apologize rather than trying to make jokes and dance around the point I was trying to make. But you won’t, so I am done discussing ME in this thread.

The problem is you don’t understand the huge difference between truth, your ideas about truth, and yourself. You’ve conflated all together, such that a probe on one, is a probe on all.

This is relativism.

There is a truth that exists outside of you, and your appreciation of it. It is God’s truth. So if I probe on an understanding of something it’s not an attack on you. It might be because I don’t understand what you’re saying in relation to the bigger T truth; it may because you’re forgetting something, or that you have a deformed understanding of something.

None of these are an attack on the person or their soul.

Why can’t you understand the huge huge distinction? Because you’re wedded to your ideas, you’ve made them your own, you now hold them as uppercase T Truth.

In debates like this…whenever you see someone who so quickly moves to use “don’t attack me” when their ideas are challenged it’s typically because

• they don’t understand that truth really does exist outside of themselves
• they’re prideful or vain, and not really desiring to open up to a larger truth.

There could be other reasons.

 

[Edward_H]

So you insult me for bringing up “bikinis” but when someone else from your side does it, you give them a thumbs up. Uh huh.

Double standards much? And then you claim you are not attacking me personally. Or I mean, excuse me, you are not attacking my soul personally.

Thumbs up was for the point about ongoing struggle. But you too quickly gravitate to words to build your next post.

 

[cviolette]

Actually, I don’t think the highlighted point is fully correct. There is “judging” and there is judging uncharitably and then there is proper fraternal correction.

Fraternal correction is part of the life of a Catholic. We don’t talk much about it, but it’s Biblical and is part of the Catholic life.

I heard a good sermon on EWTN last Monday on this. He said it should be done but 3 things are important.

1. Privately
2. Charitably
3. Rarely – 3 or 4 times a year

You don’t want to constantly be correcting people.

 

[Edward_H]

So what about a husband’s role in this.

What if he desires his wife dress sexily in public?

What might be the full set of reasons that he would do this?

And what is the woman’s role if her husband expresses this? How can she truly help her husband?

 

[Edward_H]

I heard a good sermon on EWTN last Monday on this. He said it should be done but 3 things are important.

1. Privately
2. Charitably
3. Rarely – 3 or 4 times a year

You don’t want to constantly be correcting people.

Great points. And I believe it’s also highly recommended that sincere friendship be in place (if possible).

 

[cviolette]

Great points. And I believe it’s also highly recommended that sincere friendship be in place (if possible).

Yes. Good point. The priest was talking about close friends or family.

 

[cviolette]

Yup, agreed with everything you said here, and I too much prefer spending time with men than women. I don’t see how the above paragraph proves that 99.999999% of man are in a constant struggle of lust and cannot handle themselves seeing women wear standard 21st century attire. I’ve definitely never met any man like that.

Well - I think that 99.999999% of men struggle with lust. Most are NOT fighting it. Casual sex is pretty common. And a high percentage of men masturbate. But there are a few that are no longer intimate with their wives (read all the threads on this website on abstinence in marriage) and struggle with masturbation because it is a mortal sin. Yes lust is an big issue in our society.

Ok, key phrase in your statement here: everyone will have a different definition of modesty. Maybe you think my clothes are immodest bc by YOUR definition of modesty, they are immodest. Meaning this is YOUR opinion. Not the Church’s, not our culture’s, YOURS. You think they are immodest bc by your standards, they show too much body. In this day and age, certain functions require partial nudity, swimming being one of them. And as JPII said, there is nothing wrong with that.

I don’t have a definition on modesty. But I know when I am wearing a sexy outfit that men will enjoy. It is not that hard to tell.

I go to the beach in it, play in the water in it, sun bathe in it, walk along the shore line with it - as everyone else here does. It is not an indecent, immodest thing. It is a normal thing. I say this as someone who grew up at the beach. It’s not like I don’t know what I’m talking about.

You ask why my belly would need to be tan. My belly doesn’t NEED to be tan. I like it to be tan, mainly so I don’t look ridiculous naked. And since there is nothing immodest about it, then why not? It feels good, it’s completely appropriate, and it’s part of beach life. I’ve never seen anyone put a tshirt on at the beach to lay out and tan.

I wouldn’t expect someone to put on a t-shirt to tan. But I know a lot of girls throw on a pair a shorts or a t-shirt when walking the boardwalk to shop or go get an ice-cream.

No one here is condemning you for not wearing one. It is your personal choice.

I don’t feel like anyone is condemning me. I don’t feel attack either. It is a discussion and we just don’t agree. I talk politics all the time. Trust me. I get personally attack. It doesn’t bother me.

 

[cviolette]

So what about a husband’s role in this.

What if he desires his wife dress sexily in public?

What might be the full set of reasons that he would do this?

And what is the woman’s role if her husband expresses this? How can she truly help her husband?

My husband likes it when I dress sexy. He prefers it. But he is not very religious. I can’t help my husband. He thinks pre-marital sex is fine and ABC is fine. Not much I can do. Only God can change him. So I pray and fast for him.

 

[Edward_H]

My husband likes it when I dress sexy. He prefers it. But he is not very religious. I can’t help my husband. He thinks pre-marital sex is fine and ABC is fine. Not much I can do. Only God can change him. So I pray and fast for him.

Well said and done.

St Monica pray for all struggling and non-struggling husbands, including me.

I used to struggle with driving to Church! There’s a greenway that parallels the road I take for Morning Mass. And many men and and women run on this. Some women have accomplished “high fitness”. I used to occasionally struggle to not take a second and third look. I am not a pervert. Momentary distractions, somewhat involuntary and somewhat voluntary.

A wise priest told me to “convert those moments into prayer - a conversation with God. Pray for the sanctity of all marriages. Pray for the health of all women with breast cancer. Pray for their babies.”

What a genius this priest is. Worked wonders. Now temptations are short prayers! No more struggle on this point.

God bless all priests.

 

[Debora123]

Huh?

You asked “what questions”, I gave you 11.

You asked what standard and I gave it to you. To please God in all things. That’s a mature answer. If you need a uniform guide with clearances and lengths, you’re in the wrong Church.

I answered every question I saw.

These were my questions:

1. What specific choices in dress would YOU deem to be considerate of others?
2. Can you please give me the Church’s standard as to what us Catholics are supposed to think is considerate of others when it comes to our clothes?
3. In your standards, am I being inconsiderate in the way I dress according to what you see in my pictures?

You’ve answered none of them.

 

[Debora123]

I don’t think anyone of us know what we will faced when we are judged. The bold says it all. You said you never even prayed on it but you know God has no problem with it.

I know God has no problem with it, bc I know that I am doing nothing wrong. I don’t pray before I put my clothes on every morning bc I don’t own immodest clothes and bc I don’t see myself as an occasion of sin walking around. I see myself as a human person. I have respect for myself and for others and I dress according to our cultures norms, wihtout any sort of ill intention towards anyone else. By the way, I asked Edward if HE prayed every morning before he got dressed and he didn’t answer me. Double standard again?

And you’re right, no one knows what we will face, much less what OTHERS will face. So maybe some people here need to stop condemning something that isn’t even against the Catholic belief.

 

[Debora123]

The problem is you don’t understand the huge difference between truth, your ideas about truth, and yourself. You’ve conflated all together, such that a probe on one, is a probe on all.

This is relativism.

There is a truth that exists outside of you, and your appreciation of it. It is God’s truth. So if I probe on an understanding of something it’s not an attack on you. It might be because I don’t understand what you’re saying in relation to the bigger T truth; it may because you’re forgetting something, or that you have a deformed understanding of something.

None of these are an attack on the person or their soul.

Why can’t you understand the huge huge distinction? Because you’re wedded to your ideas, you’ve made them your own, you now hold them as uppercase T Truth.

In debates like this…whenever you see someone who so quickly moves to use “don’t attack me” when their ideas are challenged it’s typically because

• they don’t understand that truth really does exist outside of themselves
• they’re prideful or vain, and not really desiring to open up to a larger truth.

There could be other reasons.

Again, I will repeat what I’ve said about 5 times now.

You claim my ideas are relativist and false, etc etc… and yet that’s all you do. You sit here and pretty much tell me I’m wrong in every way, but you don’t go into my posts, break down my argument and show me why I’m being all the things you accuse me of being.

That’s fine, you can keep sitting there and insulting my posts and making false accusations and assumptions about me, telling me I only think of myself and yadda yadda… At the end of the day, you’ve accomplished nothing, bc you’ve failed to actually prove your point, and you’re just making yourself look bad.

 

[Debora123]

Well - I think that 99.999999% of men struggle with lust. Most are NOT fighting it. Casual sex is pretty common. And a high percentage of men masturbate. But there are a few that are no longer intimate with their wives (read all the threads on this website on abstinence in marriage) and struggle with masturbation because it is a mortal sin. Yes lust is an big issue in our society.

We are speaking of the specific kind of lust that arises from women wearing completely standard 21st century attire. I highly doubt 99.99999% of men struggle uncontrollably every time a women walks by in shorts, or every time they go to a pool and are surrounded by bikini clad women. If he does, he has a problem. And remember, this is LUST we are talking about here. Not to be confused with sexual attraction.

I don’t have a definition on modesty. But I know when I am wearing a sexy outfit that men will enjoy. It is not that hard to tell.

Well it sure seems like you do have a very set, self made standard of modesty - considering how you deem very specific articles of clothing as being immodest, when the rest of our culture thinks it’s perfectly appropriate.

I wouldn’t expect someone to put on a t-shirt to tan. But I know a lot of girls throw on a pair a shorts or a t-shirt when walking the boardwalk to shop or go get an ice-cream.

Sure, If I go out for a walk around the street, then yeah, I’ll put regular clothes on over my swim suit. But you were talking specifically about being at the beach… walking along the beach, tanning, etc etc… and so I responded accordingly. While I’m at the beach - in the sand or in the water - I’m definitely not fully clothed.

I don’t feel like anyone is condemning me. I don’t feel attack either.

Good. That makes one of us. People aren’t sitting here and accusing you of doing sinful things (without Church authority), they are accusing ME of that.

It is a discussion and we just don’t agree. I talk politics all the time. Trust me. I get personally attack. It doesn’t bother me.

Being attacked on your political views is far different than being attacked on your spiritual morale as a human being.

 

[Debora123]

I am not associating anything of the sort. I am pointing out that we are integrated souls, we have soul, body, mind, will. One aspect of our life affects another aspect of our life.

I am holding my ground on the point of fraternal correction. There is a proper role and way to conduct fraternal corrections.