Traditional Latin Mass not in union with the diocese

[JNB]

Podo2004:

the latin mass is not valid, you are supposed to do what the coucil of vatican 2 said not before it! those priests should be excommunicated, the latin mass is no good, well it’s no good today because we are living in the spirit of vatican 2, but it’s HISTORY!. Today’s mass however is completely better , you actually feel good and serve in the community and you stand in the lord’s presence and serve him. From what i heard from my grandmother it seemed like it was all solemn back then in the latin mass. Common people, the church has changed in the spirit of vatican 2! Let’s rejoice instead of living in the past! VATICAN 2 RULES!!!

You have alot to learn, on so many levels Podo. I have no idea who is teaching you, but it doesnt seem to be authentic church teachings. The truth is Podo, the current mass can be like the old mass be celebrated in Latin facing the altar, with all the solem trappings your grandmother would remember.

 

[moira]

But still nobody has explained the difference between valid and licit. If licit means ‘lawful’ and valid means ‘acceptable and legally binding’ why do these two words seem to be used in opposition?

 

[mercygate]

moira:

But still nobody has explained the difference between valid and licit. If licit means ‘lawful’ and valid means ‘acceptable and legally binding’ why do these two words seem to be used in opposition?

I get the recipe for Tennesee sippin’ whiskey from Jack Daniels. I make a batch in my basement. Is it whiskey [valid]? Sure 'nuf. Is it legal [licit]? Nope.

 

[moira]

mercygate:

I get the recipe for Tennesee sippin’ whiskey from Jack Daniels. I make a batch in my basement. Is it whiskey [valid]? Sure 'nuf. Is it legal [licit]? Nope.

Thank you Mercygate! Great explaination. I get it now!

 

[itsjustdave1988]

mercygate:

I get the recipe for Tennesee sippin’ whiskey from Jack Daniels. I make a batch in my basement. Is it whiskey [valid]? Sure 'nuf. Is it legal [licit]? Nope.

Outstanding!

 

[kmktexas]

There are many places that have a Latin Mass that are in full union with their Bishop and the Pope. We begged a former pastor to celebrate a Latin Mass. He did so with permission. We have an approved Latin Mass at regular intervels in our diocese. After our Latin Mass, there was some that really had trouble following the Mass. We had folders with the English and the Latin, but when you are use to participating in English, it takes some practice to keep up. Latin remains the official language in Church Documents and in the heart of the Church. It will be around as long as the church is.

Deacon,

Personally, I have found it harder to keep up when the Mass is in Engish but the Priest isn’t following the GIRM (changing words, varying the order etc.) than it is to keep up in Latin with a bilingual Missal.

 

[Anna_Elizabeth]

Podo, You use a phrase that I hear elsewhere from time to time, but I never know what it means! Could you explain exactly what “the spirit of Vatican ll” is? Please do not use theological jargon as most of us aren’t up on that stuff.

I especially notice that you don’t capitalize “spirit,” so I know you don’t mean the Holy Spirit.

Also: If you could give some examples of when that spirit obtains, it would sure help.

God bless,

Anna

 

[khkhk]

Olympia:

1. “Common people, the church has changed in the spirit of vatican 2!”: I don’t mind being called a Catholic, part of the one holy and universal worldwide Catholic Church, and as such, please do not call me a common person, I consider that as somewhat demeaning. Each person is a unique creation of God. Thank you.

I think Podo2004 meant, “Come on people, not common people!”

 

[khkhk]

Podo2004:

the latin mass is not valid, you are supposed to do what the coucil of vatican 2 said not before it! those priests should be excommunicated, the latin mass is no good, well it’s no good today because we are living in the spirit of vatican 2, but it’s HISTORY!. Today’s mass however is completely better , you actually feel good and serve in the community and you stand in the lord’s presence and serve him. From what i heard from my grandmother it seemed like it was all solemn back then in the latin mass. Common people, the church has changed in the spirit of vatican 2! Let’s rejoice instead of living in the past! VATICAN 2 RULES!!!

Well, the latin mass is valid…People who still follow pre-vatican 2, are called Traditional Catholics. Tecnically, it could be valid for vatican 2 says that the mass can be said in what ever language is used in that part of the area. If people prefer latin, it is okay. I do agree though. It’s better with vatican 2 than before pre-vatican 2… you are a lot more involved in the mass which is good, but some newer masses, that have not been approved by the vatican that I know of, (Teen Life Masses) I do not like. It shows too much involvment, and focusing on connecting with others, and not the mass! I do like the Vatican 2 changes though!!!

 

[MrS]

Anna Elizabeth:

Podo, You use a phrase that I hear elsewhere from time to time, but I never know what it means! Could you explain exactly what “the spirit of Vatican ll” is? Please do not use theological jargon as most of us aren’t up on that stuff.

I especially notice that you don’t capitalize “spirit,” so I know you don’t mean the Holy Spirit.

Also: If you could give some examples of when that spirit obtains, it would sure help.

God bless,

Anna

The Council addressed many areas where the lay people could become more involved. Unfortunately, a number of lay people took that to mean they were in charge. Chiefs if you will, not a more involved indian.

Thus we have groups like “Catholics for Free Choice” who are nothing more that heretical rebels. But we also have Call to Holiness… who aim to increase holiness through orthodoxy.

Many posters here are obvious in their agendas…often on subjects like the TLM. Many of those in favor of the TLM are so because of the desire to return to the prayers (not just the Latin) of that Liturgy. Those who oppose the TLM often do so “…in the spirit of Vatican II”

Recommended reading… a rather short book called Liturgical Time Bombs in Vatican II (published by Tan) will give you a real eyeopener on Vat II… the protestant influence etc. But just look at the fruits… less Catholics going to Mass and the sacraments, less vocations, less orthodoxy… all from the “spirit of…”

Mr S

 

[Marines]

Many posters here are obvious in their agendas…often on subjects like the TLM. Many of those in favor of the TLM are so because of the desire to return to the prayers (not just the Latin) of that Liturgy. Those who oppose the TLM often do so “…in the spirit of Vatican II”

Recommended reading… a rather short book called Liturgical Time Bombs in Vatican II (published by Tan) will give you a real eyeopener on Vat II… the protestant influence etc. But just look at the fruits… less Catholics going to Mass and the sacraments, less vocations, less orthodoxy… all from the “spirit of…”

Podo,
The Church hasn’t changed with VC2. The Church cannot change. It can officiate, clarify, and declare dogmas,etc; But it doesn’t change.

1. “living in the spirit of vatican 2”: Lots of awful stuff going on using this excuse!
2. “From what i heard from my grandmother it seemed like it was all solemn back then”: It was all REVERENT back then. People of all backgrounds blended together in every church everywhere. Latin united the world. We participated by reading along in our missals.
3. “Common people, the church has changed in the spirit of vatican 2!”: I don’t mind being called a Catholic, part of the one holy and universal worldwide Catholic Church, and as such, please do not call me a common person, I consider that as somewhat demeaning. Each person is a unique creation of God. Thank you.

• Joe

 

[deogratias]

moira:

I just visited a new Traditional Roman Catholic Church near me and talked to the priest there. He said that he wasn’t part of the diocese and he did everything according to before Vatican II. He showed me the church. It was truly beautiful. Now my question.

Would it be a valid Mass? But not licit? And can somebody please explain what is the difference between valid and licit? What about the sacraments? Thanks for any help.

This particular church I know of and it definitely is not a licit Mass and I suspect it may not even be valid because I am uncertain their ordinations are valid either. They are a splinter sedevacant group Called Congregations of Mary Immaculate Queen -

cmri.org/cmri.htm

Since Sedevacants are a banned topic - I will say no more.

 

[deogratias]

Moria - it is somewhat complicated but has to do with Apostolic succession

If a priest is “validly” ordained through apostolic succession he is a valid priest and the Mass he celebrates is valid and he can cosecrate the eucharist which is then also valid.

However in order to hear confessions and give absolution or to perform marriages, he needs to have faculties granted by the Bishop or the Holy See.

The SSPX priests are valid as are their Masses but they are in schism so they cannot be granted faculties - if they have no faculties to celebrate the Mass, hear confessions, etc. etc., then their Masses are ilicit (against the Church law) but valid (through apostolic succession).

As I understand it, validity refers to the power and licit to the jurisdiction.

In other words, using the SSPX as an example, their priests have the power to validly consecrate the Eucharist but because they are in a schismatic state, their Masses are without the jurisdiction of Rome and are thus ilicit.

But we must not hate our separated brothers and sisters but pray for them to recocile with the Church.

But we have got to quit this thinking one Catholic is better than another, criticizing a bad liturgy should not be saying the people who attend a Church were liturgical abuses prevail are “bad Catholics” either. There are extremes in attitudes and practices and indeed cultural differences but we must never forget we are all Catholics (universal) and that we are indeed ONE BODY and as such we must love our toes as much as our fingers and to remember we function as one.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that:
Quote:
“The Church is one: she acknowledges one Lord, confesses one faith, is born of one Baptism, forms only one Body, is given life by one Spirit, for the sake of one hope, at whose fulfilment all divisions will be overcome.”

And it is for this fulfilment we should pray.

I remember a few weeks before we had our first licit TLM in Phoenix composing this prayer

*Our Father in Heaven, we pray for the unity *
*of all humankind in one flock, *
*May they all be one *
*As you, Father, *
*in me and I in you. *

*O God, Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, grant us the grace *
*to take to heart the scandal of our divisions. Deliver us *
*from all hatred and prejudice, and from all that hinders unity. *
*As there is but one Body and one Spirit, *
*one Lord, one Faith, one Baptism, *
*one God and Father of all *
*so may we also be of one in you. *
Amen

 

[mike52ad]

While there is nothing wrong with the Traditional Latin Mass, did anyone ever consider that Latin was adopted when many people knew the language? It was the vernacular of the time. There is nothing particularly holy about Latin, English, Spanish or French for that matter. What we should be more concerned with is our attitude at whatever Mass we happen to go to no matter what language it is presented in. The sights, sounds and smells associated with traditional Latin Mass can be powerful vehicles to transport us back in time to our youth. This is okay as long as we remember why we are attending Mass. I would urge anyone going to a Latin Mass to get date, times and locations from official Roman Catholic sources or you could find yourself associated with separated bretheran such as the so called “Old Roman Catholic Church” which has no connection with the Church of Rome.

 

[deogratias]

or you could find yourself associated with separated bretheran such as the so called “Old Roman Catholic Church” which has no connection with the Church of Rome.

There are a plethora of unassociated or disassociated TLM Mases and groups and you advise to check with the Diocese for an approved TLM is wise.

 

[Podo2004]

moira:

I’m sorry, but I totally disagree. The Latin Mass is valid if there is an indult from the bishop. And I don’t think today’s Mass is completely better. I ‘feel’ much better after I have been to a Tridentine Mass. The new Mass leaves me cold.

sad… i actually fell happy after the new mass. The old mass gives me shivers…(feels cold)
Podo the hobbit

 

[Podo2004]

Podo,
The Church hasn’t changed with VC2. The Church cannot change. It can officiate, clarify, and declare dogmas,etc; But it doesn’t change.

• Joe
  [/quote]

what was so good about the latin mass? From what i heard(my grandparents and great grandparents told me) the congregation didn’t even now what to say due to the fact that it was latin and they were more like spectators sounds like the best mass in the world…NOT! And the priest wasn’t facing them but the altar… times have changed people… Live with it… you are not supposed to celebrate the old mass… you are supposed to celebrate the new mass because of the council of vatican II… the stuff in the mass changes like the priest now faces the people, the mass is not said in latin but in your own language…etc
Podo The Hobbit

 

[Podo2004]

khkhk:

Well, the latin mass is valid…People who still follow pre-vatican 2, are called Traditional Catholics. Tecnically, it could be valid for vatican 2 says that the mass can be said in what ever language is used in that part of the area. If people prefer latin, it is okay. I do agree though. It’s better with vatican 2 than before pre-vatican 2… you are a lot more involved in the mass which is good, but some newer masses, that have not been approved by the vatican that I know of, (Teen Life Masses) I do not like. It shows too much involvment, and focusing on connecting with others, and not the mass! I do like the Vatican 2 changes though!!!

well if vatican 2 says that the mass can be celebrated in latin… where did you find that? exactly my point ,we are more involved in the mass… unlike the old latin mass where the congregation were like spectators… sarah!

 

[Vincent]

Podo2004:

well if vatican 2 says that the mass can be celebrated in latin… where did you find that?

Right here…
“Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.”

(Second Vatican Council, Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy Sacrosanctum Concilium, 36.1)
“teps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.”
(Second Vatican Council, Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy Sacrosanctum Concilium, 54)​

 

[Podo2004]

Vincent:

Right here…“Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.”

(Second Vatican Council, Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy Sacrosanctum Concilium, 36.1)

“teps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.” (Second Vatican Council, Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy Sacrosanctum Concilium, 54)​

then why is today’s mass celebrated in english?.. to be preserved in latin rite… preserved in history more like it…anyway how do you explain why todays mass is celebrated in english? So people can undertand it… and if just the language doesn’t change than i guess everything else changes eh?
Podo the hobbit