Traditional Latin Mass not in union with the diocese

[Vincent]

Podo2004:

the stuff in the mass changes like the priest now faces the people

Actually, the instructions in the current Mass has the following:

"The priest genuflects. Taking the host, he raises it slightly over the paten and, facing the people, says aloud:

"This is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. Happy are those who are called to his supper.

"He adds, once only, with the people:

"Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word, and I shall be healed.

"Facing the altar, the priest says quietly:

May the body of Christ bring me to everlasting life."

(emphasis added)
The Mass we celebrate today presumes that the priest-celebrant doesn’t face the people in the Liturgy of the Eucharist except when he says, “This is the Lamb of God…” and when, of course, he distributes Holy Communion.

 

[Podo2004]

Podo2004:

then why is today’s mass celebrated in english?.. to be preserved in latin rite… preserved in history more like it…anyway how do you explain why todays mass is celebrated in english? So people can undertand it… and if just the language doesn’t change than i guess everything else changes eh?
Podo the hobbit

christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/v1.html#Liturgy
ok i found out why today’s mass is celebrated in english(or mother-tongue for other languages)
Thanks anyway
Podo the hobbit

 

[Podo2004]

Vincent:

Actually, the instructions in the current Mass has the following:

"The priest genuflects. Taking the host, he raises it slightly over the paten and, facing the people, says aloud:

"This is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. Happy are those who are called to his supper.

"He adds, once only, with the people:

"Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word, and I shall be healed.

"Facing the altar, the priest says quietly:

May the body of Christ bring me to everlasting life."

(emphasis added)

The Mass we celebrate today presumes that the priest-celebrant doesn’t face the people in the Liturgy of the Eucharist except when he says, “This is the Lamb of God…” and when, of course, he distributes Holy Communion.

the priest in my parish celebrates facing the people… well maybe there are different parishes… you can’t assume that just because it says at that small part he doesn’t face the people that he deosn’t for the whole mass
Podo the Hobbit

 

[Podo2004]

Vincent:

Right here…“Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.”

(Second Vatican Council, Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy Sacrosanctum Concilium, 36.1)

“teps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.” (Second Vatican Council, Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy Sacrosanctum Concilium, 54)​

says to preserved, meaning that it wasn’t no good, but we can still uses at sometimes to PRESERVE it. But it doesn’t say we have to use it for the whole mass…so
Example: Instead of Lord have mercy, we can say kyrie eleison you know, but not the entire mass.
Podo the Hobbit

 

[Podo2004]

Vincent:

Right here…“Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.”

(Second Vatican Council, Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy Sacrosanctum Concilium, 36.1)

“teps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.” (Second Vatican Council, Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy Sacrosanctum Concilium, 54)​

thanks for the info. Vincent
It’s been a great help!
Podo the hobbit

 

[Vincent]

Podo2004:

then why is today’s mass celebrated in english?..

Permission was given so that the Mass may be celebrated in the vernacular.

This is what the 1983 Code of Canon Law says about that:

“The eucharistic celebration is to be carried out in the Latin language or in another language **provided **that the liturgical texts have been legitimately approved” (Can. 928, emphasis added).

Podo2004:

to be preserved in latin rite… preserved in history more like it…

To quote yourself, Podo, “you are supposed to do what the council of vatican 2 said not before it!”

 

[Vincent]

Podo2004:

the priest in my parish celebrates facing the people

As in mine.

Facing the people is a legitimate option. So is facing the altar *with *the people. Both are okay.

Facing the altar during the Eucharistic Prayer, from the standpoint of the Roman Missal, is officially normative, even though we hardly see it these days. I’d say the Missal presumes that the priest faces the altar during this part of the Mass because if he didn’t then the instructions are just redundant.

God bless you Podo!

 

[moira]

Podo2004:

sad… i actually fell happy after the new mass. The old mass gives me shivers…(feels cold)
Podo the hobbit

To each his own. Both Masses are valid and thank goodness we can both be happy with the one we choose.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

 

[Brendan]

And Podo, don’t forget this part of Vatican II

“Steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.”

(Second Vatican Council, Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy Sacrosanctum Concilium, 54)

Regardless of the language that we normally hear Mass in, Vatican II mandated that the faithful should learn to say their parts of the Mass IN LATIN. Anything less is violating the Spirit of Vatican II.

 

[khkhk]

Podo2004:

well if vatican 2 says that the mass can be celebrated in latin… where did you find that? exactly my point ,we are more involved in the mass… unlike the old latin mass where the congregation were like spectators… sarah!

I found that 1. my dad (most of my religion knowledge comes from him) 2. the Catechism of the Catholic Church: “The mystery celebrated in the liturgy is one, but forms of its celebration are diverse.” “The diverse liturgical traditions have arisen by very reason of the Church’s mission. Churches of the same geographical and cultural area came to celebrate the mystery of Christ through particular expressions characterized by the culture: in the tradition of the “deposit of faith” in liturgical symbolism, in organization of fraternal communion, in the theological understanding of the mysteries, and in various forms of holiness. Through the liturgical life of a local church, Christ, the light and salvation of all peoples, is made manifest to the particular people and culture to which that Church is sent and in which she is rooted. The Church is catholic, capable of intergrating into her unity, while purifying them, all the authentic riches of cultures.”
That’s where I got that from. Wow! That’s a lot of typing! I guess the others beat me to explaining that:banghead:…oh well.

 

[Podo2004]

Brendan:

And Podo, don’t forget this part of Vatican II

Regardless of the language that we normally hear Mass in, Vatican II mandated that the faithful should learn to say their parts of the Mass IN LATIN. Anything less is violating the Spirit of Vatican II.

nah i didn’t forget it . It also says there to “Sing”, so therefore we could probably sing some parts like the kyrie eleison (Lord have mercy) in latin. But not really the whole mass, so they should say or sing the parts of mass like that. Therefore it preserves the latin language and applies to the part that you thought i forgot which i didn’t

Podo The Hobbit

 

[Podo2004]

Vincent:

Permission was given so that the Mass may be celebrated in the vernacular.

This is what the 1983 Code of Canon Law says about that:

“The eucharistic celebration is to be carried out in the Latin language or in another language **provided **that the liturgical texts have been legitimately approved” (Can. 928, emphasis added).

To quote yourself, Podo, “you are supposed to do what the council of vatican 2 said not before it!”

ok then, let’s do what the council said! May the lord bless you Vincent!

Podo The Hobbit

 

[Anna_Elizabeth]

Podo, Before you go, would you PLEASE tell me what YOU mean by the “spirit of Vatican ll?” I appreciate the response of Mr.S, but most of all I would like you to explain your meaning, since you use it so often and seem to rely on it.

What do YOU mean by the “spirit of Vatican ll”?

Anna

 

[Brendan]

Podo2004:

nah i didn’t forget it . It also says there to “Sing”, so therefore we could probably sing some parts like the kyrie eleison (Lord have mercy) in latin. But not really the whole mass, so they should say or sing the parts of mass like that. Therefore it preserves the latin language and applies to the part that you thought i forgot which i didn’t

Podo The Hobbit

Ahh, but that’s not what the document says.

It says to " to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them."

It doesn’t say just specific parts. The parts that pertain to the laity are much more than the Kyrie (which is Greek anyway, not Latin)

How about The Confetior, the Creed, the Sanctus, the Pater Noster and the various responses to the invocations by the priest? Those are all parts of the Ordinary of the Mass that pertain to the faithful are they not?

 

[Iohannes]

Just for your information Podo, there is a legit Diocese in Brazil that celebrates only the Traditional Latin Mass with a Traditional Bishop, no indult required. They can celebrate it 24 Hrs without interference from the local hierachy and they only answer to Rome.

 

[Brendan]

Iohannes:

Just for your information Podo, there is a legit Diocese in Brazil that celebrates only the Traditional Latin Mass with a Traditional Bishop, no indult required. They can celebrate it 24 Hrs without interference from the local hierachy and they only answer to Rome.

That was because the ‘new Mass’ was never mandatory by Rome. Certain Bishop’s Conferences (like the US) did make it the norm within their countries, but not all.

So the Diocese of Campos just kept right on saying the TLM, and has continued to do so.

 

[Iohannes]

Podo2004:

what was so good about the latin mass? From what i heard(my grandparents and great grandparents told me) the congregation didn’t even now what to say due to the fact that it was latin and they were more like spectators sounds like the best mass in the world…NOT! And the priest wasn’t facing them but the altar… times have changed people… Live with it… you are not supposed to celebrate the old mass… you are supposed to celebrate the new mass because of the council of vatican II… the stuff in the mass changes like the priest now faces the people, the mass is not said in latin but in your own language…etc
Podo The Hobbit

Participating in Mass is being with the Sacrifice of Cavary not all this hand motions, etc.

Priest facing the altar is bibical, more accurately facing East, where Jesus, will come during his second comming. The rising Sun represents the resurrection.

One more time, there are groups of people who can celebrate the old Mass and do not have not celebrate the new, and they are in good relations with Rome.

-Fraternity of St. Peter
-Institute Christ the King
-Canon Regulars of the New Jerusalem
-Society of St. John Vianney, Diocese of Campos Brazil
-Benedictines of the Clear Lake Monastery

Latin is the official language of the Church and Gregorian Chant is the official music of the Church.

Before spouting all of your comments, you ought to do some research and go to a Latin Mass to see what the fuss is all about.

 

[Iohannes]

Brendan:

That was because the ‘new Mass’ was never mandatory by Rome. Certain Bishop’s Conferences (like the US) did make it the norm within their countries, but not all.

So the Diocese of Campos just kept right on saying the TLM, and has continued to do so.

The surreal thing is that when the Diocese regularized with Rome, they did not have to convalidate marriages, rehear confessions, and receive stripends for their “illicit” Masses during their alleged “schism”. Basically they did not have to change their position.

 

[Podo2004]

Anna Elizabeth:

Podo, Before you go, would you PLEASE tell me what YOU mean by the “spirit of Vatican ll?” I appreciate the response of Mr.S, but most of all I would like you to explain your meaning, since you use it so often and seem to rely on it.

What do YOU mean by the “spirit of Vatican ll”?

Anna

Spirit of Vatican II? Not the actual spirit, but what i mean is that by what has happened with the council that we can use to grow and change with the spirit of vatican 2. In other words we can take the rules that they decided on and go through with it. We as catholics should use that and change from pre-vatican and go on with the rulings of vatican II(which changed certain things) and go on. (Please excuse me with my explanation, im not very good at this stuff) i hope this helps… living a new life and understanding the teachings of vatican II and carrying on with them( the spirit of vatican II) Being inspired by vatican II and going on with it…(do you see where i am going with this) If you are confused then just ask me some questions
God Bless You Anna
Podo The Hobbit

 

[Podo2004]

Iohannes:

Participating in Mass is being with the Sacrifice of Cavary not all this hand motions, etc.

Priest facing the altar is bibical, more accurately facing East, where Jesus, will come during his second comming. The rising Sun represents the resurrection.

One more time, there are groups of people who can celebrate the old Mass and do not have not celebrate the new, and they are in good relations with Rome.

-Fraternity of St. Peter
-Institute Christ the King
-Canon Regulars of the New Jerusalem
-Society of St. John Vianney, Diocese of Campos Brazil
-Benedictines of the Clear Lake Monastery

Latin is the official language of the Church and Gregorian Chant is the official music of the Church.

Before spouting all of your comments, you ought to do some research and go to a Latin Mass to see what the fuss is all about.

i have done some research, so please people stop biting my head off. I would not be interested in going to the old mass because from what i heard the people are more like spectators and the only the altar boys and the priest actually were part of the service. Now today’s mass is actually joyful, there are many things people can do to feel involved and can sing and actually feel good.
Going to the trindentine mass gives me the creeps thinking about it… im going to have nightmares
Podo The Hobbit