Traditional Latin Mass not in union with the diocese

[Podo2004]

Brendan:

Ahh, but that’s not what the document says.

It says to " to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them."

It doesn’t say just specific parts. The parts that pertain to the laity are much more than the Kyrie (which is Greek anyway, not Latin)

How about The Confetior, the Creed, the Sanctus, the Pater Noster and the various responses to the invocations by the priest? Those are all parts of the Ordinary of the Mass that pertain to the faithful are they not?

but it doesn’t really have to be all of them?
Still you are still preserving the latin language if you do one of the things
Podo The Hobbit

 

[Leo44]

Prodo,

We will all agree you have a lot to learn, we all do, but you should refrain from condeming things before you have full knowledge about which you speak.

The TLM is a beautiful thing to participate in and the angels sing in Latin.

 

[Podo2004]

Leo44:

Prodo,

We will all agree you have a lot to learn, we all do, but you should refrain from condeming things before you have full knowledge about which you speak.

The TLM is a beautiful thing to participate in and the angels sing in Latin.

First of all my name is Podo, not Prodo and second of all what do the congregation do in the mass of the TLM? Watch the beauty of the mass ya sounds really beautiful, but i prefer to serve rather than observe mass and think of the beauty of it. What angels???
And thirdly, i rather understand what going on in my mother tongue than not have a clue what’s going on in latin…
It seems whenever i partcipate in these things, I’ve always got lots to learn, i know i do… but still… still acusing me of condemning things… did you guys ever go to the new mass, or maybe you guys are so wrapped up in the old mass that you wouldn’t care anyways
Podo The Hobbit

 

[Brendan]

Podo2004:

but it doesn’t really have to be all of them?
Still you are still preserving the latin language if you do one of the things
Podo The Hobbit

It isn’t a matter of preserving the Latin language. Heck the Vatican does a great job of that on it’s own.

The ‘spirit’ of Vatican II was that when people of different languages celebrate the Mass together, it should be done in Latin, as the common liturgical languge.

It then falls on the faithful to be ‘bi-lingual’ in liturgical matters. They may say the Ordinary of the Mass in the vernacular when among people of a common tounge, and say their parts in Latin when in a mixed group.

But either way, it falls on the faithful to know both, per Sacrosanctum Concilium, the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy

 

[Podo2004]

Brendan:

It isn’t a matter of preserving the Latin language. Heck the Vatican does a great job of that on it’s own.

The ‘spirit’ of Vatican II was that when people of different languages celebrate the Mass together, it should be done in Latin, as the common liturgical languge.

It then falls on the faithful to be ‘bi-lingual’ in liturgical matters. They may say the Ordinary of the Mass in the vernacular when among people of a common tounge, and say their parts in Latin when in a mixed group.

But either way, it falls on the faithful to know both, per Sacrosanctum Concilium, the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy

thanks for the help
Podo The Hobbit

 

[Olympia]

Podo2004:

did you guys ever go to the new mass, or maybe you guys are so wrapped up in the old mass that you wouldn’t care anyways
Podo The Hobbit

Podo, no one is condemning or arguing with you, really we’re not!
What people here are trying to do is to explain something that is almost lost to history.

1. Spirit of Vatican II: Vat. II was called originally to preserve the deposit of faith ! Not to turn everything upside down and change things beyond recognition. Many people now have the feeling that things are beyond repair, and we are scared that our religion has been taken over by false prophets. It is a serious thing, not just a resistance to some changes. Also, there is no official definition of “The Spirit of Vatican II.” That phrase came about because the people who wanted to change even more said that we have to keep modernizing, even long after the Council ended. Remember that the Catholic Church thinks in terms of CENTURIES, not short TV-seasons and the fad changes every three months. So saying “Spirit of Vatican II” is not a valid idea. It means that the Council didn’t go far enough, that you want ever more modernization and every year a new fad being performed in the liturgy.
2. Some people, not everyone, just like the Tridentine Mass. I wish people would stop calling this the Latin Mass. Even in the Tridentine Mass, the readings and the homily or sermon were in English. The announcements were in English. Most of the hymns were in English. Occasionally we were treated to a Latin sung Credo, or the priest sang the Preface, or we all sung the Sanctus (Holy, Holy, Holy). On great holidays, these ancient and beautiful liturgical pieces were sung, incense was burned, and bells were rung. People dressed up for church, bowed and genuflected, and were quiet in church. It was a different and reverent Catholic culture. It was also worldwide: you could literally go anywhere on this globe, and the Mass would be the same. Learning a few words of Latin was a small price to pay to achieve this global unity. Now, you never know what you will find when you step into a parish you have never seen before, let alone a new diocese.
3. At the beginning of Vat. II, the Mass was changed to have the priest face the people, but the priest still used Latin in most of the Mass. Most people loved this Mass and thought it was OK, and it was nice to have some modern touches. The people were all instructed to sing all the hymns, not just listen to the choir, there was no cantor. I believe this was called the Mass of 1962 (someone please tell me if this is wrong.)
4. You do not have to have a Tridentine Mass to have a beautiful and reverent liturgy. I don’t know if you get EWTN on your TV in Canada, I have heard that you don’t get it there (why not?? ask around.) Anyway, EWTN does a daily Mass, repeated at least three times a day. It is the new Mass, but it is done in a beautiful and reverent Catholic way. Maybe someone could send you a tape, I would be happy to do so, to show you the difference.

continued in next post > > > > > > >

 

[Olympia]

Part II of letter to Podo:

5). Just read in these forums about the complaints people have about their local parishes. What we get here in the USA is nothing
like what you see on EWTN. People come to church in all kinds of clothing, they talk incessantly, etc., etc. The music is insipid, tasteless and generally uninspiring, although there are some popular hymns. The best hymns are the ones we have lifted from the Protestant hymn books. People now feel cheated out of a religious service, where reverence is replaced by a new emphasis on community. The priest many times is not a shepherd of the people, but thinks he is some kind of activist. The Holy Eucharist is what many or most people come for, and to fulfill their Sunday Mass attendance obligation.

1. Some people are lucky enough to be happy in the new parishes. More power to them, and we need them. I really appreciate them and all the work they put into running the parish. For many in the pews, though, they do not even want to get involved, because their voices are not listened to, and they get the reputation for being “difficult” and “backward” if they say anything, and, as you said, “they are not in the spirit of Vatican II,” which is definitely not a compliment!!!

Sorry I took so long with this, but up to now you have been getting just bits and pieces, not the whole history of this problem. I admire your sticking with this theme, and your open mindedness in listening to many points of view. God bless.
Thank you for listening.

 

[mike52ad]

The most wonderful aspect about being a Catholic is the timlessness of the Church. What other organization would consider changes mandated 40 years ago as “new”?

Again I say, worship in the manner that you favor, but worship. The Church allows (some would say encourages) Latin as a language for worship. Remember why we come together, we come together to celebrate the Eucharist as it has been celebrated for almost two thousand years now. The language and some of the customs may change but the wonder of the Blessed Sacrament remains unchanged forever.

Is it not a joyful wonder that the Christ that died on the Cross for us comes to be with each of us at each Eucharist? I don’t care which way the priest faces, or if he bows or even curtsies. I don’t mind it if there are santuary bells and insense. The real gift comes from God through the hands of his annotinted priest. Simply said, it is enough for me that Jesus, Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity comes to me at the Mass. This Wonderful Sacrament comes to us individually and unites us one to another at the same time.

Celebrate with joy the Gift that was given to us. This gift was not given to the angels, it was given to us, to you and to me. Watch with the eyes of faith as simple bread and wine become the Body and Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.

It is this one thing that would keep me in communion withthe Roman Catholic Church, the Eucharist. No other denomination has the Holy Eucharist which is the Body and Blood of Christ, so why would I want to leave to go to another denomination?

God bless all.

 

[Brendan]

Podo2004:

thanks for the help
Podo The Hobbit

No problem.

This is a issue I’m pretty familiar with. One of the chief goals of Vatican II was to increase the participation of the laity.

Believe it or not, the use of the Latin Ordinary by the faithful is designed to do that.

I travel once or twice a year to Europe on business. Coming from Detroit on Northwest one usually changes planes in Amsterdam. To better adjust to the time change, I usually take a Saturday evening flight that lands Sunday morning. This gives me all day Sunday to adjust.

But that means that I have to go to Mass in Amsterdam. I’ve found a church that does the ‘new Mass’ in Latin. That way I can participate fully and worship with my fellow Catholics, exactly like Vatican II imagined, instead of just sitting there like a bump on a log doing my Sunday obligation while the rest of the church prayed in Dutch.

The same thing happened on a trip to Quebec. My wife is Quebecois and has many relatives in La Belle Province.

Going to Mass in a small town on our way, the priest noticed we were English, and as a gesture, offered to say some of the prayers in English. I asked the priest to say them in Latin instead.

Since most of the rest of the congregation was elderly, they still remembered the prayers, and we were all able to pray together as a Catholic community,

Contrast that to the time when the elderly parents of a fellow parishiner visited from VietNam. They spoke little to no English, but we made them sit and listen to a Liturgy they could not understand, only because the Catholic Church in America is too poorly catechicised (and in many cases, too self righteous) to offer the Liturgy in a language they could participate in as a courtesy to visitors. Is that really what the Spirit had in mind when He guided Vatican II?

By learning the Latin parts of the Mass, and everyone being more willing to share and participate in a common language, we can become the open and welcoming Church Christ and Vat II had in mind.

 

[Anna_Elizabeth]

Podo2004:

t. In other words we can take the rules that they decided on and go through with it. We as catholics should use that and change from pre-vatican and go on with the rulings of vatican II(which changed certain things) and go on. … living a new life and understanding the teachings of vatican II and carrying on with them( the spirit of vatican II) Being inspired by vatican II and going on with it…(do you see where i am going with this) If you are confused then just ask me some questions
God Bless You Anna
Podo The Hobbit

I’m trying, Podo, I’m trying!

I understand the “rulings of Vatican ll.” What I don’t understand is “go through with it” or
“go on”
“carrying on with them”
“going on with it”

In fact, I agree with you when you say that we should begin with the rulings of Vatican ll, but how can we do any of the “going ons” when nobody even knows and’/or follows those rulings?

What are we to do with all those weird things that aren’t a

 

[Anna_Elizabeth]

Podo2004:

t. In other words we can take the rules that they decided on and go through with it. We as catholics should use that and change from pre-vatican and go on with the rulings of vatican II(which changed certain things) and go on. … living a new life and understanding the teachings of vatican II and carrying on with them( the spirit of vatican II) Being inspired by vatican II and going on with it…(do you see where i am going with this) If you are confused then just ask me some questions
God Bless You Anna
Podo The Hobbit

I’m trying, Podo, I’m trying!

I understand what you mean by the “rulings of Vatican ll.” What I don’t understand is “go through with it” or
“go on”
“carrying on with them”
“going on with it”

In fact, I certainly agree with you when you say that we should begin with the rulings of Vatican ll, but how can we do any of the “going ons” when nobody even knows and/or follows those rulings?

What are we to do with all those weird things that aren’t ANYWHERE in the documents from Vatican ll, but that one sees all around? How do you suggest that we get back to the basics, the actual Vatican ll decisions?

And don’t you agree that we must do that before we “go on” with other things?



Anna

 

[Iohannes]

Podo2004:

i have done some research, so please people stop biting my head off. I would not be interested in going to the old mass because from what i heard the people are more like spectators and the only the altar boys and the priest actually were part of the service. Now today’s mass is actually joyful, there are many things people can do to feel involved and can sing and actually feel good.
Going to the trindentine mass gives me the creeps thinking about it… im going to have nightmares
Podo The Hobbit

Many saints including Pope St. Pius V and Pope St. Pius X will disagree with you. Do not forget that many saints loved the Tridentine Mass you seem think it is “creepy”.

 

[moira]

Podo2004:

First of all my name is Podo, not Prodo and second of all what do the congregation do in the mass of the TLM? Watch the beauty of the mass ya sounds really beautiful, but i prefer to serve rather than observe mass and think of the beauty of it. What angels???

Podo The Hobbit

I participate at TLM by praying along with the priest and singing whenever I can. And by lifting my heart to God.

As for angels… What do you mean, what angels? Angels are at every Mass. Who do you think fills all those empty seats?
Eucharistic prayer II from a NOM…“And so we join the ANGELS and the saints in proclaiming your glory as we say: Holy, Holy, Holy…”

 

[JCB]

Podo2004:

i Now today’s mass is actually joyful, there are many things people can do to feel involved and can sing and actually feel good.
Going to the trindentine mass gives me the creeps thinking about it… im going to have nightmares
Podo The Hobbit

If going to the Traditional Latin Mass (the Mass of all ages) gives you the creeps then perhaps you should consider a protestant religion. I hear the Lutherans have lots of fun and feel good sermons. After all, if you don’t feel good then something must be wrong. In fact that’s why many don’t care for Catholicism … it just doesn’t make one feel good… and isn’t that what life is all about ?

 

[deogratias]

According to his profile, Podo is only 13 years old - so maybe we are presenting him with more than he can take in at this point in his life -

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

JCB:

If going to the Traditional Latin Mass (the Mass of all ages) gives you the creeps then perhaps you should consider a protestant religion. I hear the Lutherans have lots of fun and feel good sermons. After all, if you don’t feel good then something must be wrong. In fact that’s why many don’t care for Catholicism … it just doesn’t make one feel good… and isn’t that what life is all about ?

Well I have to say you are wrong with this. There is no such thing as the Mass of all ages. As the Trad Latin Mass can not be linked to the first century of the Church.

The current rite of the Latin Church, the Mass as it is today, is valid and someone who feels uncomfortable at the Trad Latin Mass should attend that and be welcomed.

 

[ToledoRosary]

First, to answer your question about Invalid vs. Illicit. The validity of all sacraments is concerned with the minister performing the essential act of the sacrament according to the intention of the Church. For instance, Baptism. In danger of death situations, any person, (even a non-Christian) can baptize someone if they pour water over the head of the person and recite the Trinitarian Formula that would result in valid baptism. The SSPX Priests to whom you refer are more than likely *validly ordained *priests in the SSPX and therefore their sacraments and Masses would be valid, although illicit as they are not under the authority of the local bishop. Whenever a doubt exists about the integrity of a sacrament, it is by the law itself invalid. The Sacrament of Penance is the only sacrament that enjoys the privilege of Ecclesia Suplex (The Church Supplies). Should a person confess to someone who does not possess the faculty to hear confessions and receives absolution, the Church supplies the necessary grace and absolution to the penitent.

I went to visit a so called Traditional Catholic Church in Florida this past Spring and was shocked by what I heard. This place was not even an SSPX Parish- it was an INDEPENDENT PARISH. In other words, they claim loyalty to the Pope, but then told me that “Rome has nothing to do with us and we have nothing to do with Rome.” Plus, they observe exclusively the 1917 Code of Canon Law which is no longer in force. Add to that, not only is the pastor an invalidly consecrated bishop, he’s not even a priest! With that in mind, the Latin Mass there is NEITHER valid or licit. Whenever there is a doubt about such matters, it’s best to avoid at all costs!!

 

[ToledoRosary]

Please CLEARLY CITE your references to where the Latin Mass is INVALID!!! Moreover, you cite that the “Old Mass” made one feel like a spectator. Just take a look at the Novus Ordo Mass. I’ve seen many “spectators” in attendance who cannot wait for Mass to be done with. My question to you is, do REALLY understand what’s going on with the Novus Ordo?? If so, why the mass exodus after communion??

Podo2004:

the latin mass is not valid, you are supposed to do what the coucil of vatican 2 said not before it! those priests should be excommunicated, the latin mass is no good, well it’s no good today because we are living in the spirit of vatican 2, but it’s HISTORY!. Today’s mass however is completely better , you actually feel good and serve in the community and you stand in the lord’s presence and serve him. From what i heard from my grandmother it seemed like it was all solemn back then in the latin mass. Common people, the church has changed in the spirit of vatican 2! Let’s rejoice instead of living in the past! VATICAN 2 RULES!!!

 

[Faustina]

Deacon Tony560:

There are many places that have a Latin Mass that are in full union with their Bishop and the Pope.

We have an approved Latin Mass at regular intervels in our diocese.
Deacon Tony SFO

This is true in our diocese. Our parish has a Latin Mass once on month. Other parishes in our diocese also have Latin masses.

 

[Podo2004]

JCB:

If going to the Traditional Latin Mass (the Mass of all ages) gives you the creeps then perhaps you should consider a protestant religion. I hear the Lutherans have lots of fun and feel good sermons. After all, if you don’t feel good then something must be wrong. In fact that’s why many don’t care for Catholicism … it just doesn’t make one feel good… and isn’t that what life is all about ?

at least protestants are happy and actually express their faith, while we catholics just cower and tell people to join other religions that is why people are turning away from catholicism.Because people are supposed to feel good after mass(not the old mass) I feel good after the new mass, why don’t you guys? You just want to keep the old mass, what about today’s mass? It seems less important to you guys. Why don’t you try encouraging people to go to today’s mass. That’s what i just don’t get…
Podo The hobbit