Traditionalist?

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I certainly consider myself a Traditionalist in the sense that I accept all of the teachings of the Church that have been handed down through almost 2,000 years. The Tradition includes the documents of Vatican II. However, I do not entirely agree with some of the new “traditions” that have arisen subsequent to the Council in the “spirit of Vatican II.” For example, I think that the following, modernist changes to the liturgy have been mistakes that have contributed to an overall lessening of reverence at Mass:
  • The priest facing the congregation during the Offertory and Consecration
  • The removal of communion rails
  • Use of insipid modern music and songs
  • Communion in the hand
  • The misplaced sign of peace
  • Use of inclusive language in the prayers and readings
  • Emphasis on the “people of God” versus God Himself
  • Failure to enforce a modest dress code
  • Excesssive concelebration
  • Excessive use of Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist
I also believe that there have been positive developments such as the use of the vernacular, in addition to Latin–unfortunately, this has gone too far, to the point where Latin has almost been eliminated. Additional scriptural readings have also been beneficial.
 
Vatican II was a mistake and we are feeling the effects of it today.

The Novus Ordo is the biggest mistake of them all. As a result, most Catholics now do not believe in the real presence.

Pope John Paul II is the Pope and He can speak infalliably if He wants. However, I think He is one of the worst Pope’s the Church has every had.

My two cents…
 
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robertaf:
I consider myself very traditional (small t) or maybe very orthodox. I honor Vatican II and believe firmly the Holy Spirit guided the election of Pope John XXIII
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I love everything about the Mass as it is today. I like the Mass in the vernacular and the Priest facing us. I love Communion in the hand. I like to be able to raise my hands while praying if I feel the Holy Spirit is urging.

We do have Perpetual Adoration in our Parish. It is my favorite prayer time.

I also have deep love and appreciation for the Latin Mass. I think it should be available for those who want or prefer it.

I do miss some of the older things. Like children being taught how to sit quietly during Mass. Just kidding :whistle: !

I don’t give a darned about ladies covering their heads, remember too many caught off guard using old kleenexs or hankies with lipstick smears just so they could follow a rule.

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good for Roberta
 
I used to think I was a traditionalist. As it turns out I was a sedevacanist. We didn’t call it that though. We were the remnant of the Catholic Church after the “great apostasy”. We were taught that the rest of the Church had fallen away after Vatican II, and we were the fortunate few. The last “valid” pope we trusted was Pope Pius XII. It was a long road home to Holy Mother the Church. It is good to be home.

As I said, I used to think I was a traditionalist. Now I know that I am one! I follow the teachings of the Magesterium and trust the successor of Peter, Pope John Paul II.

I still love the TLM, I attend once in a while to feel my “roots”. My wife is a convert and dosen’t get the TLM at all. I am fortunate to attend a mass with little liturgical abuse.
 
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aByzantineCatho:
Vatican II was a mistake and we are feeling the effects of it today.

The Novus Ordo is the biggest mistake of them all. As a result, most Catholics now do not believe in the real presence.

Pope John Paul II is the Pope and He can speak infalliably if He wants. However, I think He is one of the worst Pope’s the Church has every had.

My two cents…
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But the Novus Ordo is not a product of Vatican II. The beautiful 1965 Missal is.

I do agree with you that history will probably end up remembering JPII as the worst Pope of at least the 20th century. Not for what he has done but for what he has failed to do.

(And before the flames start I am not rejecting JPII as Pope. And I do think he has done some great things. But it is not necessary to agree with every decision of every Pope. In fact, we are not permitted to blindly follow anyone, even the Pope, as Catholics)

James
 
To be fair, Pope John Paul II inherrited a mess handed to him by Pope Paul VI. With the exception of altar girls, the typical Novus Ordo mass we see today was allready in place in most diocese. Yes, allowing of altar girls was probably the worst decsion of his papacy, but in many diocese as early as the late 70s had altar girls.

The worst, if one wants to use the term, Pope of the XX century, and probably one of the worst leaders in the papacy in quite a long time was Pope Paul VI. His lack of leadership allowed dissent to become fully entrenched in the church.
 
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JNB:
To be fair, Pope John Paul II inherrited a mess handed to him by Pope Paul VI. With the exception of altar girls, the typical Novus Ordo mass we see today was allready in place in most diocese. Yes, allowing of altar girls was probably the worst decsion of his papacy, but in many diocese as early as the late 70s had altar girls.

The worst, if one wants to use the term, Pope of the XX century, and probably one of the worst leaders in the papacy in quite a long time was Pope Paul VI. His lack of leadership allowed dissent to become fully entrenched in the church.
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Good point.

JPII was also responsible for communion in the hand.

And instead of excommunicating bishops for disobedience who do not even bother to teach the faith he just excommunicated the disobedient bishops that actually hold and teach the Catholic faith. (although I can say that I now have very little sympathy for the SSPX anymore.)

That makes no sense to me.

And, he does seem to be worse than PaulVI in that he seems to want to institutionalize abuses. There seems be an attitide of “If the abuses are done long enough and by enough people maybe I should just add it to the GIRM.”

Of course none of this detracts from his personal holiness. I think there have been few Popes in history who can match JPII for that.

James
 
Actually it was Pope Paul VI that first allowed Communion in the hand in 68 in Belgium, and in 77, the US bishops voted to ask Rome to have an indult for communion in the hand, despite the fact it wasnt a local custom at the time, and Rome, under Paul VI at the time, allowed the indult to be granted.
 
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JNB:
Actually it was Pope Paul VI that first allowed Communion in the hand in 68 in Belgium, and in 77, the US bishops voted to ask Rome to have an indult for communion in the hand, despite the fact it wasnt a local custom at the time, and Rome, under Paul VI at the time, allowed the indult to be granted.
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I stand corrected. Thank you.

James
 
I know it is fustrating at the lack of action on many items from the Vatican, and yes, Pope JPII did appoint many horrible Bishops, and does little to correct them. That said, things in the church would be far worse today if we have another Pope with the leadership skills of Paul VI instead of getting JPII.
What really bothers me is how many priests, especially in the large suburban parishes look at their being a priest as a job, not a vocation. It is the attitude that father rather sit in the rectory drinking coffee, eating donuts and reading the Sunday paper rather than be on the altar when it comes time to distribute communion. The Pastor never giving anything solid in the way of chruch teachings in the sermon, and the priest who can never seen celebrate the mass aoccrding to the missal. The same attitude is when the Pastor seems rather be among the lay clearical "cliques" such as the dozens of middle aged or elderly EMHCs and lectors rather than be in the confessionals before mass.
 
James,
I do agree with you that history will probably end up remembering JPII as the worst Pope of at least the 20th century. Not for what he has done but for what he has failed to do.
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This is SO true! “Not for what he has done but for what he has FAILED to do.”

God Bless!
 
theodorro,

Since you are in Romanian it is very difficult for you to understand all of the bad things which have been happening in the USA. I would not know where to begin.

God Bless!
 
yes, here in Romaina the priests are very conservative, but in USA I heard that the situation is not very good, the liturgy abuses, the imorality of some priests; maybe is the influence of the protestantism…

I hope and I pray that this situation in USA will end, and all thigs will be good.
 
theodorro,

Since you know the problems in the USA then you can understand why many of us think the lack of attention the Pope has given to correct the situation is why we feel he is not a good Pope.

God Bless!
 
I believe JP2 is doing a good job, if not physically inspiring the Church but definately Spiritually.
He has put out so many good papal letters and documents that it will take scholars and the faithful a long time to read the great beauty he expresses.

He has given great attention to the Eastern Catholic Churches, and for THAT alone I applaud him! :clapping: :bowdown2:

Go with God!
Edwin
 
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Edwin1961:
He has given great attention to the Eastern Catholic Churches, and for THAT alone I applaud him! :clapping: :bowdown2:
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He is largely responsible for the removal of Latinizations from many Eastern Churches, is he not?

James
 
I think we should be careful about making judgements upon the Supreme Pontiff. If something he says or does seems novel, then you aren’t bound to follow it. You do not have to be ecumenical or join in inter-religious dialogue. However, I don’t like saying things such as “John Paul II is probably the worst Pope of the 20th Century.” I just don’t like it. Such rhetoric will certainly turn a lot of people off. Would the Church have been better off with someone else? I don’t know. I’m not going to judge. We must love the Pope as our Father, even if it seems that he is wandering off and we don’t understand why. Pray for John Paul II, for his health, for his welfare, that God will always enlighten his spiritual leadership. He needs prayer more than any of us realize.
God bless,
Ryan
 
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ServusChristi:
Pray for John Paul II, for his health, for his welfare, that God will always enlighten his spiritual leadership. He needs prayer more than any of us realize.
God bless,
Ryan
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You’re allowed one charitable criticism of the Pope or a Bishop for every 10 prayers you say for them.

Ok, I made that up. But it seems to be a good rule of thumb. 👍

James
 
James,
Sounds like a good rule to me. I think that if we prayed about all of the problems as much as we discussed them, they would no longer exist!

Moses laid prostrate before God for forty days and turned away His fierce wrath in the desert. How fast could the Church be restored if we all fell on our face before God and wrestled with Him for a few hours at a time?
Peace,
Ryan
 
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