Traditionalist?

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(Cont’d.)

I recognize that the new liturgy was produced by a committee after Vatican II and that the present bishops were not in on that committee. Their job has been to make sure that the new liturgy is at least celebrated according to the books. Thus it is not about myself (I can’t anyway) outlawing the new liturgy or that I expect the bishops to. And yes, it is the Bishops who have the call into what they will or will not allow in the liturgy. Nevertheless, I would not look to any particular bishop for guidance as to what is the best music for producing a sacred atmosphere, any more than one would look to a bishop for guidance on how to a build a church with the architecture to vividly convey the Catholic faith in stone. This is not a put down on any bishop, just to say that because someone holds an episcopal office he may or may not allow certain things in his diocese, but this does not necessarily grant him good taste in liturgy, music, or architecture.

To me, it is more about looking at the fruit of both liturgies, and the effects they produce. We are living in a time when belief in the Real Presence, Mass attendance, and vocations have dropped dramatically since the liturgical changes were put into effect. This is not to blame everything on the new liturgy, as I do agree that catechesis has been awful over the past 40 years. Nevertheless, we do need to look at the new liturgy and ask if it is producing the fruit that was expected of it such as even more people being attracted to and coming to Mass.

God bless.
 
Do charismatic, cursillo, Taize, etc require the Bishop’s approval? I think they should if the indult requires it.
I enjoy all the intercessions made by the priest for me in the Latin Mass as well as the beautiful music and art. Some say that’s extravagant but I think it is reinforcing our Christianity, in general, and Catholicity, specifically, to see them. Should everything possible not reflect as close to possible the worship of the angels as in Revelation? Do you actually think it would sound like folk music, rock, rap, or even mariachi or polka? Otherwise, what symbols will we see more of on this earth, cigarette ads, strip club ads, casino ads, unchaste clothing on women, vulgar bumper stickers, etc.? They are getting their Satanic reinforcement through those symbols of his will for mankind; why do we not give the followers of the true Christianity theirs?
Also, a professor at a state college said that if you take away a language of a people, their culture goes too (probably because cultures have words that are untranslateable or they have more words to describe different properties of one thing that cannot be reduced to less words in another language. Bring back Latin big time–if not tridentine style, EWTN style. Still, you do not get the prayers to the Trinity, Mary, saints, etc. for yourself by the priest that you get in the Tridentine.
Don’t forget “Pro multis” in the consecration of the wine. Yes. It is written that way in the Bible. If we are trying to reemphasize the Bible in liturgy since the 60s we need to at least be consistent. Even a Protestant ministry to our alzheimers home says “for many” when reading what our priest should read for the consecration.
 
I don’t see how so many people think that traditionalists are schismatics. The traditionalists like a mass that is over a thousand years old and was the only mass that was allowed in the west. Yet some would consider it invalid or schismatic
 
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Elzee:
I’m fairly new here…what is Novus Ordo? Thank you!
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It is short for Novus Ordo Missae which is latin for New Order of the Mass

Some claim that is belittling and derisive because the Vatican never called it that, but the traditional latin Mass came from the Ordo Missae (The order of Mass) and so if a new one comes out, it would logically be Novus Ordo Missae.

Anyway, on the forum, you will see it abbreviated as NO and the Traditional Latin Mass abbreviated as TLM.

Hope that helps.
 
Hello. I go to a SSPX mass here in San Antonio. I Converted to Catholisism fro the Episcopal Church in the late 80’s - and have been going to the TLM since 1986-7.

I cannot adequately express the joy I feel after I attend Mass. I occasionaly attend a NO mass - only to remind myself why I do not attend the NO. However I am not one of those Traditionalist that question the authenticity of the NO.

I think many people have misconceptions about the SSPX. At our chapel (It’s pretty small) we pray for JPII during every mass. If you have any questions about the SSPX - you shoud go to their web site - or read the documents of Ecclesia Dei.

Our parish is very active in the community. We perform social work - host conferences for the neighborhood and hold an annual pilgriamage to the Missions.

God Bless.
 
Like many I had a hard time answering this because I do prefer the Mass in the vernacular but do not like some elements of the modern Mass.

In my childhood I did attend TLM in the 1950’s but don’t remember much as I was very young. However a seed was implanted …

Ironically I learned to love aspects of the Cathilic tradition from attending an Anglo-Catholic Episcopal parish for 10 years until I returned toi the Catholic church.

Particularly I miss:
  1. The singing of traditional Gregorian chant, and replacement of traditional hymns and service music by unsingable modern music
  2. The general lack of reverence, elimination of kneeling such as at Communion. In our diocese they at least brought back kneeling during the Ecce Agnus Dei and the priest’s communion.
  3. Some parishes I’ve been to don’t use bells at the elevation anymore, and have put the emphasis on the minor elevation at the end which to me diminishes the institution and the Body and Blood of the Lord.
  4. It seems the church is getting away from the concept of the Mass as a recalling of the Sacrifice, instead emphasizing it as a communal meal.
I would like to see use of Latin for parts of the Mass as they do on EWTN for example. However I think it is important that people hear the words. I once attended a Good Friday service where the entire passion was sung in Latin - it was beautiful but I felt that it lacked the impact that the same words do when read in English.
 
Hello,

I haven’t voted in the poll because I’m a perfectionist and no option completely spells out my views 😃 .

I find I have unusual views on this topic - so I’ll put in my $.02 - please forgive the length of the post. 🙂

With regard to liturgy, frankly, I love the Pauline Mass. I think 99% of the changes made to the texts of the prayers (including the changes made to Consecration) improved the prayers by making them simplier and more to the point. I think the changes reveal the profundity of the prayers.

Also, I think the participatory nature of the Pauline Mass is a wonderful improvement. Having the chance to sing the responses and being able to hear the words of the Canon and Consecration are an enormous blessing and priviledge.

However, I prefer the Mass in Latin. I kow this is not for everyone, but I can understand Latin and think it is beautiful. (And if I hear Mass in Latin I can’t be distracted by the rotten ICEL mis-translations).

What frustrates me about “Traditionalists” is their apparent convictions 1) that spreading the Tridentine rite Mass will solve all the troubles in the American Church and
2) that the abuses in the new Mass are evidence that the new Mass is flawed (which is illogical).

Do they not see what I see in the Church today??

I live in one of the most liberal/progressive areas in the country. Most of the Catholics in my area (and I’m talking about people older than my parents as well as my own peers- this is not a post-Vatican II problem!) are totally uncatechized. They have no idea what they believe. They do not live lives in obedience to Church teaching and they have no reverence because they have no idea that they owe reverence or obedience to anyone or what it means to revere and obey!!

A change of rite will never convince someone who doesn’t believe in the Real Presence to be reverent at Mass. A change of rite will never convince someone who doesn’t believe in objective truth to act on his faith. We need a slow, thorough, large-scale re-catechesis. We need missionaries.

IMO, the reason why John Paul II has not taken greater action against the abuses is because there is a multitude of honestly ignorant Catholics in the American Church. To drive out those who are disobedient/dissenters would also drive multitudes of un-catechized Catholics from the Church, thus endangering their souls for whom the Pope is also responsible.
 
Sigh… hindsight is always 20/20. Realized I should have voted in the poll (missed an option) and that I should have said that I think the spread of the Tridentine mass is a good thing despite finding many Traditionalists frustrating. Always seems to have a hard time saying what I mean without editing 20 times or writing 10 page posts. Sign of lack of mental clarity, I’m sure. 😛
 
“Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do…Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition,” Mark 7:19

Tradition is much less important than keeping the commandments of God.

“He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him,” John 14:21.
 
“Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.” 2 Thessolonians 2:14

“Many other signs also did Jesus in the sight of his disciples, which are not written in this book.” John 20:30

“And we charge you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw yourselves from every brother walking disorderly, and not according to the tradition which they have recieved of us.” 2 Thessolonians 3:6

“Keep the good thing committed to thy trust by the Holy Ghost, who dwelleth in us.” 2 Timothy 1:13, 14

“But you, my dearly beloved, be mindful of the words which have been spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ.” Jude 1:17
 
Chris Burgwald:
I had a hard time answering the poll b/c “Traditionalism” doesn’t exactly have the same definition for everyone. I would definitely prefer that we had more latin at least in some parts of the Ordinary of the Mass (e.g. the Sanctus and Agnus Dei), and I also think that turning the priest around was a mistake (I follow Ratzinger’s take here).

But I also support the mind of the Fathers at Vatican II on ecclesiology, religious liberty, ecumenism, etc., and these are things (especially the latter two) which many Traditionalists have a hard time with, in my experience.

So I ended up putting, “No, but…” as my answer.
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WOW!!!
You absolutely wrote exactly what I would say.
I voted that I have sympathy for the traditionalists. I wish I could change my vote.
 
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Guy:
I do not consider myself a traditionalist, but I do consider myself orthodox. I love JP2. I have fallen in love with the Catholic Church over the last 10 years. I am excited to see traditional devotions returning to Catholic practice sush as Eucharistic adoration, the scapular, and sisters wearing the habit (this is found among young Catholics!!!).
I am in the deacon formation program in our diocese. Sometimes I think I am the only on in my classes who is excited about this new zeal and reurn to orthodoxy.
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Please consider coming to our church in Sterling Heights one day. We have a wonderfully dynamic Pastor who is 37. He also says the TLM at St. Josephat in Detroit.
The nuns from a few orders come for our masses. We sing Latin and Greek. We have May Crowning, 40 hours and Corpus Christi. My daughter is to recite 20 questions from the St. Joseph’s Cathechism or she will not make First Communion AND says a decade of the rosary to begin and end each class. Even my Kindergartener is expected to know the “Our Father”, “Hail Mary” and “Glory Be” (this is not hard because we pray at home).
Our parish has grown from 250 families to 750 and still going. We have no paid employees, we run on volunteers. I clean toilets and feel a joy in doing it.

Please visit us. It will make your heart light!
saintcyrils.org
 
What does SSPX mean? I can tell you one thing I love to go to High Masses, I’d go to one everytime if I could. I wish we could have more Latin Masses every now and then, just to touch bases with the past. I love JPIIs views on abortion, birth control, and women priests, and I respected his decison on celibacy.
 
SSPX stands for the Society of St Pius X which is a traditionalist organization who adheres to Post Vatican II teachings. Many here on this site spew hatred towards those that attend these chapels, as they are techinically schismatic, but they are good God fearing Catholics who do not feel at home in the post Vatican II Modernistic church, as I have many family who attend.
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Fox:
What does SSPX mean? I can tell you one thing I love to go to High Masses, I’d go to one everytime if I could. I wish we could have more Latin Masses every now and then, just to touch bases with the past. I love JPIIs views on abortion, birth control, and women priests, and I respected his decison on celibacy.
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Bulldog, I grow weary of the term “hatred.” Let’s have some documentation here. There is a vast gulf between challenging the legitimacy of SSPX and “hatred.” There has been tremendous challenging, no question there. But I see little to no “hatred.”
 
I remember the day that the priest first said Mass in the vernacular.

That day to hear Mass in English was like hearing fingernails on a blackboard… even to this day it still is like fingernails on a blackboard.

I would have to drive almost two hours to hear a valid Latin Mass so I stay in town.

Now they have little girls up assisting the priest, I wonder if the Eucharist is really valid. The next thing that will happen is that women will be operating the Church. Thats when I drop out and go once a month to a real Latin Mass.
 
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Catholicguy:
Far too many so-called “trads” have severed the bonds of Unity in rejecting the Normative Mass and/or the most recent Ecumenical Council.

From from being some sort of elite “Traditional” Catholic, they cease to be Catholic at all once they sever even one bond.
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Or could it be that the “bonds” of modernism are bonds of Satan, and that it is those now shackled by them who have ceased to be true Catholics?

The strategy of modernists rather reminds me of those nice warm blankets that were given to the American Indians, blankets laced with smallpox.
 
OK, I am late to this thread, but here goes…I have sympathies for “traditionalists” as far as it goes. I would like to see more Latin in the novus ordo mass–much of the “repetitive” parts of the mass could be said in Latin, which would add to the dignity and the tradition of the mass, while leaving the rest of the mass in the vernacular. I also fully agree with those who want to bring back altar rails–in fact, I would bring back communion kneeling at the altar rail. Maybe it’s just my own failings, but I feel like I’m standing in line at the check-out when I file up for communion; it’s hard to remain contemplative when stairing at the back of the person in front of me. But when kneeling at the rail (as I have done at a few Latin Masses), I am overwhelmed by the presence of God as I stare up at the artwork–even sparse art–in the sanctuary. Moreover, by kneeling we are already in an appropriate posture to receive the Eucharist, thus eliminating the need for the “profound bow.” Heck, my mother has left the church and attends an Episcopal church, and they manage to kneel for communion.

Retruning to the Latin mass–I do wish there were more Latin in the mass, but I am troubled by the Tridentine mass, even those performed licitly. Before I am flamed for this, my reason is philosophical, not aesthetic. From an aesthetic standpoint I prefer the 1962 or earlier missal. But I am bothered by the fact that there are general liturgical norms (albeit abused), but that some parishes are allowed to use an entirely different liturgy. Philosophically, in my mind, it’s all or nothing–we should all be using the same liturgy.

The problem, it seems to me, is that the changes introduced in the 1970 missal were simply too drastic,and this has driven Catholics into two increasingly hostile camps. Those who loved the 1970 missal and who invoke the “spirit of Vatican II” seem to push for the removal of any and all traditional trappings. If one is a “moderate” traditionalist, you are branded some kind of radical rear-guarder or are accused of wanting to “turn back the clock.” So, the moderate traditionalists are driven to demand more “radical” raditionalism.

There must be some comprimise position. If it were up to me (and here I think I am mostly echoing what many have already written): bring back more Latin in the novus ordo mass; turn the priest away from the laity for more parts of the mass–especially the consecration–and limit greatly the number of eucharistic ministers so the sanctuary does not look like some sort of buffet; bring back some more traditional forms–a few more bells, altar rails, and lay gestures to add solemnity. However, keep much of the mass in the vernacular; keep the emphasis on lay participation in the mass (responses, singing, etc.); heck, even keep the sign of peace (though perhaps move to a point that is less disruptive–near the beginning of mass, or maybe around the homily/creed/petitions, but before the Eucharistic prayer). Finally, eliminate the indult Latin mass OR mandate more indult masses in EVERY diocese so that all Catholics have the same access to the liturgy(ies).

But that’s just me. 😉
 
Hi!
I am a convert as of two years ago. I converted from the Episcopal Church, so I never knew the Tridentine or Latin Rites and can’t miss what I never knew. I did, however know BEAUTY. If there is one thing those “high church” Anglicans get right, it is beauty. And I REALLY miss it! All I want is a novus ordu done right, reverently, with traditional music, clear lectors that believe the Word they’re reading and a homily that is true, orthodox and relevant. Do you think I can find one? (especially the music). I live on the North Shore of Boston. Does anyone know of a good parish around here?
 
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